Are you in the middle class, 2023?

I think debt is probably a pretty steady percentage of income across the board. The people who are consumer debt free are the minority, I think.

And it seems probable that lower income people have higher debt as a percentage of their income precisely BECAUSE they must go into debt to afford necessities.
I'm sure that's the case with this inflation. My parents were well above middle class and my husband's parents were very middle class. Neither one ever had debt, but it was easier back then. Heck, it was easier 20 years ago. I can't believe how much money I spend every month on cell phones, internet, cable, etc.
 
How much you make doesn't necessarily correlate to how much you have.
True, but I don't think criminals are necessarily going to reason that. Chances are good that if I make $200,000 plus, I'm going to have some of that in liquid assets in the bank or in property around the estate.
 
True, but I don't think criminals are necessarily going to reason that. Chances are good that if I make $200,000 plus, I'm going to have some of that in liquid assets in the bank or in property around the estate.
Your risk on an anonymous message board is pretty much zero.

If someone wanted to pursue scamming people making 200k+ they could find thousands of potential targets with a quick LinkedIn search. If someone has “vice president” in their job title and they work for a large company they make more than that.
 

Your risk on an anonymous message board is pretty much zero.

If someone wanted to pursue scamming people making 200k+ they could find thousands of potential targets with a quick LinkedIn search. If someone has “vice president” in their job title and they work for a large company they make more than that.
Not remotely anonymous, it's pretty easy to find people from details posted here. For example, someone might list their state on their profile, maybe even birthday. Answering a couple Spinneret Community Board questions and you can narrow down pretty quickly what area of the state to even what city someone lives. All I'm saying is it's better to be cautious and not put more information out there than you need to, especially regarding financial information.
 
I'm sure that's the case with this inflation. My parents were well above middle class and my husband's parents were very middle class. Neither one ever had debt, but it was easier back then. Heck, it was easier 20 years ago. I can't believe how much money I spend every month on cell phones, internet, cable, etc.

inflation definitely plays a part but i think we need to remember that on the one hand there are expenses most people now consider 'basics'/'necessities' that were not necessarily the norm in the average 'middle class' budget 20 years ago-cell phones (only about 50% of the public had them and definitely not all family members extending down to kids, yup it's somewhat of a trade off for loss of landline expense but much more expensive month to month). internet in one's private home was still pretty rare with only about 20% of u.s. homes buying in, and yeah cable was popular but it was still only used by about 60% of the population and more often than not it was the more basic level programming packages vs. what it seems most folks speak to having today.

so on the one hand you've got a budget that likely benefited from some fewer/lower expenses BUT anyone who owned a home 20 years ago and was paying a mortgage on it was likely paying at or (more likely) WELL ABOVE what people are complaining about being horrific interest rates today-the lowest interest rate during the 30 year period leading up to 2003 was IN 2003 during a couple of months when it got down to the high to mid 5's but it was generally higher, peaking at over 14.6% in 1984. starting in 1971 rates were around 7.3% and kept rising up to a peak of 18.3% in 1981 (we were THRILLED in the 90's to get a 'great' interest rate on our first home of over 10% :crazy2:). homes were less expensive yes but wages were lower as well and those interest rates were a killer.

i guess what i'm trying to say is-there have been financial challenges across the decades and what might appear to have been easier times years ago had their own obstacles.
 
inflation definitely plays a part but i think we need to remember that on the one hand there are expenses most people now consider 'basics'/'necessities' that were not necessarily the norm in the average 'middle class' budget 20 years ago-cell phones (only about 50% of the public had them and definitely not all family members extending down to kids, yup it's somewhat of a trade off for loss of landline expense but much more expensive month to month). internet in one's private home was still pretty rare with only about 20% of u.s. homes buying in, and yeah cable was popular but it was still only used by about 60% of the population and more often than not it was the more basic level programming packages vs. what it seems most folks speak to having today.

so on the one hand you've got a budget that likely benefited from some fewer/lower expenses BUT anyone who owned a home 20 years ago and was paying a mortgage on it was likely paying at or (more likely) WELL ABOVE what people are complaining about being horrific interest rates today-the lowest interest rate during the 30 year period leading up to 2003 was IN 2003 during a couple of months when it got down to the high to mid 5's but it was generally higher, peaking at over 14.6% in 1984. starting in 1971 rates were around 7.3% and kept rising up to a peak of 18.3% in 1981 (we were THRILLED in the 90's to get a 'great' interest rate on our first home of over 10% :crazy2:). homes were less expensive yes but wages were lower as well and those interest rates were a killer.

i guess what i'm trying to say is-there have been financial challenges across the decades and what might appear to have been easier times years ago had their own obstacles.
Yup....equally thrilled to get our 9% mortgage back in the day.
 
Yup....equally thrilled to get our 9% mortgage back in the day.

we were on the top of the world when they dropped below 10% and prices had raised/we had paid just enough to drop p.m.i.-the house was 30 years old when we bought it and with the exception of millions of layers of different wallpaper in the kitchen and some groovy circa '70's wood paneling on a few walls that any upgrades had ever been done (including the appliances :crazy2:=stove/oven).
 
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I have to change my answer. I just got a promotion today and I now make just above lower-middle class for California.

Congratulations r.e. - promotion, just hope you don't suffer what once happened to me, i.e. - received a minimal raise and went into the next *Tax Bracket* and wound up same as before.
 
Congratulations r.e. - promotion, just hope you don't suffer what once happened to me, i.e. - received a minimal raise and went into the next *Tax Bracket* and wound up same as before.
This is not how tax brackets work. Sometimes weird stuff happens with tax withholdings but that is trued up when you file (you just get a bigger refund).

The only way you can lose making more money is if you phase out of a tax subsidy. The ACA for example has income limits for subsidies towards premium costs.

Not remotely anonymous, it's pretty easy to find people from details posted here. For example, someone might list their state on their profile, maybe even birthday. Answering a couple Spinneret Community Board questions and you can narrow down pretty quickly what area of the state to even what city someone lives. All I'm saying is it's better to be cautious and not put more information out there than you need to, especially regarding financial information.
You still need a name and/or email. Without that the information is pretty meaningless.

Everyone has to do what they’re comfortable with but I don’t see much risk in discussing money.
 
People bring up how crowded Disney is as a reflection of the economy. I think it has more to do with the population in Florida exploding over the last few years. I’d be surprised if they ever bring back out of state annual passes.
Also, as a reflection of the economy, it could be a false indicator. If 90% of the people packed into the Disney parks are going to put it on the credit card while still paying last year's Disney trip while struggling to pay the house payment or rent, just the fact that the parks are packed is not an indication that the economy is good.
 
I wouldn't want to be a renter right now. The rents near me for the equivalent home are now twice my mortgage payment.
How about if you didn't already have your home? Comparing today's rent with your mortgage you acquired 15 years ago isn't a good comparison.

Around me, rent has always been higher than owning, disregarding maintenance. With the doubling or more of the cost of a house in the last 2 years however, turned the tide. A $700 (tax and insurance included) mortgage of 3 years ago compared to $900 rent is a lot different than now with an $1500 mortgage vs. the average rent increase to $1100.
 
I can’t get my head round this idea of defining class by income
How would you remove the income factor? By what people have? What people have is based on what they spend. What they spend is not an indication of what their income is, but income is an indication on what we can afford to have.

Which goes to my opinion, the middle class is very well off because if it's based on what you have that you can afford, it takes the very upper portion of the defining by income factor to have something like a nice home or newer cars.

It has to be based on something, and that something is ideas we have come up with, but those ideas are related to the income, thus income has to be the true defining factor.
 
Also, as a reflection of the economy, it could be a false indicator. If 90% of the people packed into the Disney parks are going to put it on the credit card while still paying last year's Disney trip while struggling to pay the house payment or rent, just the fact that the parks are packed is not an indication that the economy is good.
It is another assumption that parks are crowded with just return visitors and population being static?! - much less this idea of 90% of the people packed into Disney hitting their credit cards without paying a previous year's trip - while this may be true for some cohort of park visitors - I don't fundamentally see where this moves the needle much.

Disney hasn't opened a new gate since 1998 - The US Population alone grew from ~280M in 1999 to ~340M in 2023. As an international destination, the added world population isn't even factored into the growth of potential visitors. To steal a line from Sunset Boulevard - its the population that's gotten bigger, and its the parks that got small.

Given typically wealth distribution and the impact of "turbulent economic" times not always hitting segments of the population in the same way - it seems quite plausible that the parks are filled because they are filled - so, on this we agree - its not always an economic indicator.
 


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