Are there no honorable people left?

[mom2rtk]

I have a question: are you also haggling with these people for the lowest price you can get? Nickel-diming them over every little thing or criticizing work that isn't finished? I was married for 15 years to a man that works in the building trades and I can tell you, if you haggle them down to a ridiculously low price you should not also expect good work to happen on a projected timeline.

Horse hockey. If they don't like what is being negotiated, they don't have to take the job. Haggling requires 2 parties to participate.

 

[MrsCobraBubbles]

Thanks for providing evidence of what most people already knew. Lots of contractors are dishonorable and almost extortionists.

You're welcome? I don't necessarily see it all as dishonor and extortion. Society likes to organize itself into little groups with specific rules. You can navigate these groups a little easier if you learn the best ways to game each system. Am I too cynical? I thought this was common knowledge. Of course, I prefer to do everything above board, but when in Rome...

 

[gotomu212]

So they should totally ignore phone calls because they are busy? They can't be bothered giving an estimate now to do a job next month when they aren't as busy? Maybe I should have bribed them and made them a four course dinner to get them to give me an estimate.
For the record, this is FL. Contractors work year round.

But you're asking them to leave a current job site to come by your house for some spec work estimates. I don't mean that you specifically asked them to leave a site but that is what they'll have to do. Then you get people mad that contractors are constantly leaving their project a couple of hours early and wondering why their projects take so long to complete. When someone is slammed with summer business they often won't commit to any new work until later summer.

We have a fantastic contractor and we know that when he says he's busy, he's busy and we have to wait for the estimate or we can go with someone we don't know and accept the risk. I really appreciate that once he's on our project he devotes his full time to it and doesn't leave to juggle other projects. That's why this guy is in such high demand.

 

[MrsCobraBubbles]

Horse hockey. If they don't like what is being negotiated, they don't have to take the job. Haggling requires 2 parties to participate.

Not when the contractor is over a barrel because there's been a dry spell and he can't pay his guys. Desperation will force anyone to take less than they need because something is better than nothing. Then after they've been forced to take the crappy pay they get a couple of good jobs and the low paying job falls by the wayside. That's how haggling can backfire on a homeowner.

 

[mom2rtk]

Not when the contractor is over a barrel because there's been a dry spell and he can't pay his guys. Desperation will force anyone to take less than they need because something is better than nothing. Then after they've been forced to take the crappy pay they get a couple of good jobs and the low paying job falls by the wayside. That's how haggling can backfire on a homeowner.

Still horse hockey. It's their problem and they are turning it into the homeowner's problem. If they don't like the deal, they should do the honorable thing and turn it down.

 

[MrsCobraBubbles]

Still horse hockey. It's their problem and they are turning it into the homeowner's problem. If they don't like the deal, they should do the honorable thing and turn it down.

Pay a fair wage to begin with and it probably won't be a problem at all.

Honor doesn't pay the crew. And a contractor without a crew is just a handyman with fancy ideas. You may really like your boss, but how long are you willing to work for him without pay?

 

[mom2rtk]

Pay a fair wage to begin with and it probably won't be a problem at all.

Honor doesn't pay the crew. And a contractor without a crew is just a handyman with fancy ideas. You may really like your boss, but how long are you willing to work for him without pay?

Excuses. Take the job or don't. But don't take the job and hold some sort of grudge where you need to get even with the homeowner.

 

[LisaR]

But you're asking them to leave a current job site to come by your house for some spec work estimates. I don't mean that you specifically asked them to leave a site but that is what they'll have to do. Then you get people mad that contractors are constantly leaving their project a couple of hours early and wondering why their projects take so long to complete. When someone is slammed with summer business they often won't commit to any new work until later summer.

We have a fantastic contractor and we know that when he says he's busy, he's busy and we have to wait for the estimate or we can go with someone we don't know and accept the risk. I really appreciate that once he's on our project he devotes his full time to it and doesn't leave to juggle other projects. That's why this guy is in such high demand.

Part of the job of an independent contractor is being able to juggle it all. He doesn't need to leave in the middle of a job. There are options to come first thing in the morning before starting a job, in the evening on the way home, or on the weekends. If the contractor isn't able to do that and constantly needs to turn down jobs because he can't make it work, maybe he needs to hire someone for a flat rate to give estimates. Honestly though, I don't really mind if someone doesn't want the job or can't make the time for an estimate. The ones that get me are the ones who say they will call back and never do or the ones who set up appointments and never show up. I'd much rather someone simply say they are too busy. That I can understand.

 

[MrsCobraBubbles]

Excuses. Take the job or don't. But don't take the job and hold some sort of grudge where you need to get even with the homeowner.

It doesn't even need to be about a grudge or getting even. It's numbers.

My husband had a buddy who had this happen once. He took a job to do some piddly little work in a basement bathroom. The homeowner wanted the world but wasn't willing to pay much, but the buddy didn't have any work at the time, it was the middle of winter and he'd already laid off most of his crew--he needed to keep a couple guys active so they wouldn't look elsewhere for work. There was no profit in it for him but it would pay his guys for a few days while he kept looking for more work. He took the job.

His guys get started the next day and he gets a call from a realtor; they have an out of state client who is trying to sell a house in a ritzy neighborhood that wasn't winterized so pipes had burst all over the place and the toilets were shot. It's a total re-plumb. They're willing to pay a premium to re-plumb the house because they need it done quickly, they have an open house scheduled for the weekend. Not only can he pay his crew but he'll get good money in his own pocket as well. What do you think he does? Do you think he passes up the $10,000 job because he promised to do the piddly little job for peanuts? Nope, he puts off the little job for a week while he takes the big job. He fully intends to get back to the little job but the same realtor is impressed with his work and recommends him to some other clients. He's got good work rolling in, almost more work than he can handle, it's the middle of winter which is normally a very lean time for contractors her in PA. Somehow cranky cheapskate homeowner's no-profit job isn't even on the radar anymore. Had the contractor been making a profit on the little job it might have been worth his while to call back a couple more guys to work on it, but for no profit?

You talk about honor, but expecting someone to work for nothing isn't honorable, and it happens to contractors all the time.

 

[Coonhound]

Get the Blue pages. You may find them in the entry of the grocery store or possibly online. The blue pages only lists businesses that identify as Christian. Of course dishonest workers can be anywhere! But, it may be a good place to start. If you have trouble with them you may be able to get help from the blue pages.

 

[Dancind]

DH is a General Contractor, had a family business for 25 years. It folded a few years after the 2008 recession. He didn't know what to do with himself, then the calls started coming. They haven't stopped in 5 years, he has more than he can handle. None of the kids in the family were interested in learning the trade, including our daughter. DH can do it all, and he hasn't ever had to advertise. He will be 62 this month though, and is no longer interested in jobs that require him to be on his knees too much, or in crawl spaces, or up and down ladders, or outside in the middle of summer or winter.

He doesn't even know anyone to recommend for those jobs anymore. I've noticed lately, he gets a lot more gifts. Ha. Bribery, perhaps? Don't know what his clients will do when I convince him it's time to quit working in a few years.

My point, I don't think there's a lot of contractors like him out there anymore. If you find one, treat them like family. (or maybe better)

 

[MariMama]

That's your decision to make. I've been privy to a lot of conversations between tradesmen in the last 15 years, they gossip like nobody's business and it's a small community. Schmoozing gets you a lot, you should try it sometime. Another example: leave the garbage men a small cooler of drinks and they'll throw just about anything into the back of that truck. My husband used to do that to get them to take building materials when he was renovating our old farm house. Bribery makes the world go 'round. And some respect and human kindness will make service people want to serve you. It's just my advice, you can choose to take it or leave it.

My garbageman doesn't throw anything into the top of the truck. He doesn't even get out of the truck. Bribery doesn't make my world go round. But you've confirmed my idea about how trustworthy and ethical some contractors are in their dealings,

 

[MariMama]

Pay a fair wage to begin with and it probably won't be a problem at all.

Honor doesn't pay the crew. And a contractor without a crew is just a handyman with fancy ideas. You may really like your boss, but how long are you willing to work for him without pay?

We paid $14000 for two weeks worth of work, after we paid for all the supplies. I'd say that is pretty damn generous, wouldn't you? I am so sick of the "pay me more" bullcrap when people do nothing to earn it. The contractors are the ones that give estimates and know how much they are going to get paid before they even take the job. Our contractor was great and did a good job, so I am not going to bash him. Slimy, unethical contractors? Don't waste my time.

 

[MrsCobraBubbles]

We paid $14000 for two weeks worth of work, after we paid for all the supplies. I'd say that is pretty damn generous, wouldn't you? I am so sick of the "pay me more" bullcrap when people do nothing to earn it. The contractors are the ones that give estimates and know how much they are going to get paid before they even take the job. Our contractor was great and did a good job, so I am not going to bash him. Slimy, unethical contractors? Don't waste my time.

Right. You paid your contractor a good wage and he did a good job for you. Isn't that what I said?

 

[CPanther95]

It doesn't even need to be about a grudge or getting even. It's numbers.

My husband had a buddy who had this happen once. He took a job to do some piddly little work in a basement bathroom. The homeowner wanted the world but wasn't willing to pay much, but the buddy didn't have any work at the time, it was the middle of winter and he'd already laid off most of his crew--he needed to keep a couple guys active so they wouldn't look elsewhere for work. There was no profit in it for him but it would pay his guys for a few days while he kept looking for more work. He took the job.

His guys get started the next day and he gets a call from a realtor; they have an out of state client who is trying to sell a house in a ritzy neighborhood that wasn't winterized so pipes had burst all over the place and the toilets were shot. It's a total re-plumb. They're willing to pay a premium to re-plumb the house because they need it done quickly, they have an open house scheduled for the weekend. Not only can he pay his crew but he'll get good money in his own pocket as well. What do you think he does? Do you think he passes up the $10,000 job because he promised to do the piddly little job for peanuts? Nope, he puts off the little job for a week while he takes the big job. He fully intends to get back to the little job but the same realtor is impressed with his work and recommends him to some other clients. He's got good work rolling in, almost more work than he can handle, it's the middle of winter which is normally a very lean time for contractors her in PA. Somehow cranky cheapskate homeowner's no-profit job isn't even on the radar anymore. Had the contractor been making a profit on the little job it might have been worth his while to call back a couple more guys to work on it, but for no profit?

You talk about honor, but expecting someone to work for nothing isn't honorable, and it happens to contractors all the time.

I was with you until the end. Have some pride in your work, your business name and your word. If you don't want "cranky cheapskate's" job, don't take it - or don't take it at that price.

And when things turn around and you become flush with cash, it's not an excuse to abandon the job altogether - in fact it makes it worse that you didn't just spend a little bit of effort and that new found cash to keep your word.

That "cheapskate" was there when when the contractor needed the cheapskate's money.

 

[MariMama]

It doesn't even need to be about a grudge or getting even. It's numbers.

My husband had a buddy who had this happen once. He took a job to do some piddly little work in a basement bathroom. The homeowner wanted the world but wasn't willing to pay much, but the buddy didn't have any work at the time, it was the middle of winter and he'd already laid off most of his crew--he needed to keep a couple guys active so they wouldn't look elsewhere for work. There was no profit in it for him but it would pay his guys for a few days while he kept looking for more work. He took the job.

His guys get started the next day and he gets a call from a realtor; they have an out of state client who is trying to sell a house in a ritzy neighborhood that wasn't winterized so pipes had burst all over the place and the toilets were shot. It's a total re-plumb. They're willing to pay a premium to re-plumb the house because they need it done quickly, they have an open house scheduled for the weekend. Not only can he pay his crew but he'll get good money in his own pocket as well. What do you think he does? Do you think he passes up the $10,000 job because he promised to do the piddly little job for peanuts? Nope, he puts off the little job for a week while he takes the big job. He fully intends to get back to the little job but the same realtor is impressed with his work and recommends him to some other clients. He's got good work rolling in, almost more work than he can handle, it's the middle of winter which is normally a very lean time for contractors her in PA. Somehow cranky cheapskate homeowner's no-profit job isn't even on the radar anymore. Had the contractor been making a profit on the little job it might have been worth his while to call back a couple more guys to work on it, but for no profit?

You talk about honor, but expecting someone to work for nothing isn't honorable, and it happens to contractors all the time.

You finish the job you started, period. That guy was a sleaze and I hope the homeowner told everyone she knew about what he did.

 

[MrsCobraBubbles]

My garbageman doesn't throw anything into the top of the truck. He doesn't even get out of the truck. Bribery doesn't make my world go round. But you've confirmed my idea about how trustworthy and ethical some contractors are in their dealings,

OK, well I live in a rural area and around here we don't have garbage trucks that magically scrape large items off the pavement, our garbage men work very hard and have to get off the truck at every house to toss bags into the truck, and sometimes heave larger items like old couches, or even heavy windows and doors and bundles of old carpet (the construction materials I was referring to). Around here, when someone leaves out a large object for the garbage, it's not unusual to leave a token of appreciation for the garbage men as well. That token could also be considered a bribe; however you want to look at it, that's how things get done.

 

[MariMama]

OK, well I live in a rural area and around here we don't have garbage trucks that magically scrape large items off the pavement, our garbage men work very hard and have to get off the truck at every house to toss bags into the truck, and sometimes heave larger items like old couches, or even heavy windows and doors and bundles of old carpet (the construction materials I was referring to). Around here, when someone leaves out a large object for the garbage, it's not unusual to leave a token of appreciation for the garbage men as well. That token could also be considered a bribe; however you want to look at it, that's how things get done.

LOL I live in a rural area, too. There are no large items allowed in garbage. If it doesn't fit in your 90 gallon can, it is your responsibility to get rid of it, no matter how much you try to bribe the garbage man.

 

[MrsCobraBubbles]

I was with you until the end. Have some pride in your work, your business name and your word. If you don't want "cranky cheapskate's" job, don't take it - or don't take it at that price.

And when things turn around and you become flush with cash, it's not an excuse to abandon the job altogether - in fact it makes it worse that you didn't just spend a little bit of effort and that new found cash to keep your word.

That "cheapskate" was there when when the contractor needed the cheapskate's money.

Yeah, I agree, I've gotten to know that contractor pretty well over the years and he is a sleaze. But he's a sleaze with a family that depends on his business to pay the bills. So often homeowners are obsessed with getting the lowest possible price to keep more money in their own pockets and they don't consider the position that puts these small business owners in. They have families too. I sympathize with the contractor because my family has experienced that mid-winter desperation as well. Here in PA, people that work in the building trades know to save up money during the building season to help us survive the winter, but stuff happens. Major, unexpected expenses happen and before you know it, your cushion is gone. Desperation causes people to do some bad things. And the "cheapskate"? I think he shares the blame in his predicament. He knew the system, he chose to do his project in the middle of winter because he knew there would be contractors that were desperate for work, desperate for income. He gambled and he lost.

I'm a cheapskate too sometimes, I've been guilty of a similar thing. I purchased a truck from a seller on Craigslist because I wanted a good deal, and I know you'll always get a better deal from a private seller than from a dealer. The truck was being offered for about $1000 under blue book, and it was in excellent condition, or at least it seemed to be. The seller was a nice single mom, she seemed sweet and trustworthy and her reason for wanting to sell the truck quickly seemed legit. To be clear, this woman set the price for the vehicle, I didn't haggle and I even questioned her about the difference in price between what she was asking and blue book--her explanation was that it had some minor cosmetic issues and she said sometimes the aftermarket sound system cut out, it all sounded plausible and I wasn't trying to scam a single mom. So i buy the truck and come to find out a couple weeks later that there are some major issues that had been masked by the seller. The repairs cost about as much as the discount the former owner had offered on the truck so I shrugged it off, because I took a gamble on what could have been a good deal and I lost. Ultimately I ended up paying what the truck was actually worth, and I'll bet this homeowner ended up doing the same, paying another contractor (who wasn't as desperate for the work) the real cost of doing the job.

 

[MrsCobraBubbles]

LOL I live in a rural area, too. There are no large items allowed in garbage. If it doesn't fit in your 90 gallon can, it is your responsibility to get rid of it, no matter how much you try to bribe the garbage man.

Well, I guess I'm fortunate to live in an area where throwing out a larger item doesn't always necessitate a trip to the dump. It sucks for the garbage men though, they work really hard in all kinds of weather. It's been kind of hot around here, maybe I'll leave a cooler of drinks next week, not as a bribe but out of the goodness of my heart.