Are there no honorable people left?

[DizBelle]

Part of the job of an independent contractor is being able to juggle it all. He doesn't need to leave in the middle of a job. There are options to come first thing in the morning before starting a job, in the evening on the way home, or on the weekends. If the contractor isn't able to do that and constantly needs to turn down jobs because he can't make it work, maybe he needs to hire someone for a flat rate to give estimates. Honestly though, I don't really mind if someone doesn't want the job or can't make the time for an estimate. The ones that get me are the ones who say they will call back and never do or the ones who set up appointments and never show up. I'd much rather someone simply say they are too busy. That I can understand.

This is what angers me the most.... People saying they're going to do something and then NOT DOING IT!!!

Dammit, don't tell me you're going to do it if you're not going to.

 

[MrsCobraBubbles]

You finish the job you started, period. That guy was a sleaze and I hope the homeowner told everyone she knew about what he did.

I happen to know that even if the homeowner did that, it didn't affect the contractor one bit. He got a lot of good business from that realtor and some of her friends, this happened years ago but he's still in business and doing well for himself. I just ran into him at the grocery store last Christmas and we chatted about the kids for a bit and he showed me his new truck. It's beautiful, and has several thousands of dollars worth of shiny, flashy tool storage and pipe racks.

My husband never did anything like that, he finished every job he ever took, but I helped my husband run his business and I can understand how a person could be desperate enough to do something like that. The building trades are often feast or famine, with very few periods of steady, sustainable work. And yet a contractor is expected to maintain a crew of qualified people year round, regardless of how much or how little money is coming in. In a good year, those periods of feast and famine ultimately even out, but not every year is a good year. Again, pay your contractor a fair price, don't hunt around for someone desperate enough to take a crap wage, treat your contractor with kindness and respect, and you're a lot less likely to get screwed.

 

[MariMama]

I happen to know that even if the homeowner did that, it didn't affect the contractor one bit. He got a lot of good business from that realtor and some of her friends, this happened years ago but he's still in business and doing well for himself. I just ran into him at the grocery store last Christmas and we chatted about the kids for a bit and he showed me his new truck. It's beautiful, and has several thousands of dollars worth of shiny, flashy tool storage and pipe racks.

My husband never did anything like that, he finished every job he ever took, but I helped my husband run his business and I can understand how a person could be desperate enough to do something like that. The building trades are often feast or famine, with very few periods of steady, sustainable work. And yet a contractor is expected to maintain a crew of qualified people year round, regardless of how much or how little money is coming in. In a good year, those periods of feast and famine ultimately even out, but not every year is a good year. Again, pay your contractor a fair price, don't hunt around for someone desperate enough to take a crap wage, treat your contractor with kindness and respect, and you're a lot less likely to get screwed.

Or just don't be a sleazy, unethical pos human being and then you won't have to worry about it, right?

 

[MrsCobraBubbles]

Or just don't be a sleazy, unethical pos human being and then you won't have to worry about it, right?

Lol, that's right. This is hilarious because we are having a conversation about ethics on a website full of posts about the best ways to game the system at Disney. The best ways to get more fastpasses, early ressies at BOG that will get you into the park earlier than everyone else so you can be first in line at 7DMT, throwaway reservations at the fort so you can get extra magic bands and fastpasses. I can list more examples but I don't think that I need to, we all know what I'm talking about. In my opinion, corruption is all the same, and it's everywhere.

Yes, we should all be the best we can, and the world would be a better place if we all fell in line, followed the rules, and respected and cared for our fellow man. That would also be a utopia, which doesn't exist on Earth because humanity is corrupt.

 

[MariMama]

Lol, that's right. This is hilarious because we are having a conversation about ethics on a website full of posts about the best ways to game the system at Disney. The best ways to get more fastpasses, early ressies at BOG that will get you into the park earlier than everyone else so you can be first in line at 7DMT, throwaway reservations at the fort so you can get extra magic bands and fastpasses. I can list more examples but I don't think that I need to, we all know what I'm talking about. In my opinion, corruption is all the same, and it's everywhere.

Yes, we should all be the best we can, and the world would be a better place if we all fell in line, followed the rules, and respected and cared for our fellow man. That would also be a utopia, which doesn't exist on Earth because humanity is corrupt.

Show me where I've participated in those threads on how to game the system at Disney. Because someone else does it doesn't mean I'm going to do those things. Ever hear the "if your friends jumped off a bridge, would you follow them?" Same principle applies here.

 

[Cannot_Wait_4Disney]

Lol, that's right. This is hilarious because we are having a conversation about ethics on a website full of posts about the best ways to game the system at Disney. The best ways to get more fastpasses, early ressies at BOG that will get you into the park earlier than everyone else so you can be first in line at 7DMT, throwaway reservations at the fort so you can get extra magic bands and fastpasses. I can list more examples but I don't think that I need to, we all know what I'm talking about. In my opinion, corruption is all the same, and it's everywhere.

Yes, we should all be the best we can, and the world would be a better place if we all fell in line, followed the rules, and respected and cared for our fellow man. That would also be a utopia, which doesn't exist on Earth because humanity is corrupt.

I'm going to use the old fast pass system in my example. Gaming that system by showing up right when the park opened and getting fast passes is not dishonorable in any way. Touring such that you avoid lines is not dishonorable in any way. Early reservations to get into the park and into a line faster is not dishonorable in any way.

An example of something dishonorable would be lying about a child's age in order to get child's price.

 

[MrsCobraBubbles]

Show me where I've participated in those threads on how to game the system at Disney. Because someone else does it doesn't mean I'm going to do those things. Ever hear the "if your friends jumped off a bridge, would you follow them?" Same principle applies here.

Show me where I accused you of doing any of those things? I simply said that we are both present on this site, a site where corruption is rampant. For the record, I've never done any of those things either.

I also don't speed, ever. I used to work with people who had TBI, from car accidents mostly, and I haven't knowingly gone faster than 3 or 4 miles per hour over the limit since my early 20s. I volunteer at three charitable and/or nonprofit organizations right now, and have been doing volunteer work since my teens. I truly do believe what I said; that the world would be a better place if we were all better people, and I try to live my life that way. I do my best not to negatively affect anyone with my existence. But I feel like you are trying to vilify me simply because I accept that corruption is a part of life. If college sociology taught me anything, it's that corruption is present in EVERY system, in every society. EVERY SYSTEM has an acceptable level of corruption built into it. No, corruption isn't good, but it exists regardless and we all learn how to work with it, or around it, on some level. Now you've got me exercising my college philosophy too. I also studied theology in college, shall I quote examples from the Bible to illustrate my points as well? Jesus had some very wise words for us about how to live with corruption.

 

[MrsCobraBubbles]

I'm going to use the old fast pass system in my example. Gaming that system by showing up right when the park opened and getting fast passes is not dishonorable in any way. Touring such that you avoid lines is not dishonorable in any way. Early reservations to get into the park and into a line faster is not dishonorable in any way.

An example of something dishonorable would be lying about a child's age in order to get child's price.

OK, but at the heart of it, when you learn how to game a system you are using it to your own advantage, which ultimately means that someone else will lose out because they didn't have that knowledge. I agree that using the fast pass system in you example isn't exactly dishonorable, but it's self-serving and still an example of a corrupted system.

 

[mom2rtk]

So now this is a fastpass discussion?

 

[MrsCobraBubbles]

So now this is a fastpass discussion?

Isn't it fascinating how, no matter what the initial topic of discussion, arguments on internet message boards always devolve into personal attacks and battles about ethics and semantics?

 

[Cannot_Wait_4Disney]

To the OP and anyone reading.

1. Always get a detailed written contract with a time frame for the job to be completed.
2. Pay nothing until the job is complete. People seem to work harder and faster if they don't get the money until it is done. Further, I've seen contractors get their first draws only to go in a drinking binge and never come back. And here you're in a tight spot because other contractors aren't going to really want to come in to a half finished job and in effect guarantee work they didn't do. If your contractor cannot carry the costs of supplies, he is undercapitalized and in danger of financial collapse. If you must pay something, you buy the materials yourself and have the place you bought them from deliver them. That way, they're yours. It would stink to pay him his draw for materials only to have him put it on credit and then go belly up.
3. Always make sure the contractor is licensed, bonded, and insured.
4. Always make sure of the permit requirements in your jurisdiction. Some of them are quite weird.
5. Always look him up on various sources.
6. Always know that in construction, unanticipated things pop up that may lead to more cost. But if your contractor wants more money, make sure he explains the problem right away and that you're satisfied it's legit rather than he totally underbid and now he's just wanting more money. And put any agreements for changes in writing!!!!! See rule 1.

 

[Cannot_Wait_4Disney]

So now this is a fastpass discussion?

Nope. It's still a discussion about honor, which is the title of the thread

 

[Cannot_Wait_4Disney]

OK, but at the heart of it, when you learn how to game a system you are using it to your own advantage, which ultimately means that someone else will lose out because they didn't have that knowledge. I agree that using the fast pass system in you example isn't exactly dishonorable, but it's self-serving and still an example of a corrupted system.

Corruption would be if I greased a Disney employee to give me more fast passes. Optimizing the system isn't necessarily corrupt, nor is doing one's homework so that one knows the system better than someone else. Now making false reservations that one never intends to keep for the purpose of getting more fast passes is something I would neither do, not advocate.

 

[Shanti]

DH is a General Contractor...he has more than he can handle. None of the kids in the family were interested in learning the trade, including our daughter. DH can do it all, and he hasn't ever had to advertise...He doesn't even know anyone to recommend for those jobs anymore...Don't know what his clients will do when I convince him it's time to quit working in a few years...My point, I don't think there's a lot of contractors like him out there anymore.

Sounds like being a contractor would be an excellent field for a motivated and ethical young person to get into, especially in this era of outsourcing in other parts of the economy. So much demand, so little qualified competition...

I'm a teacher and will make a point of mentioning that to my students from now on. I'm sure that some of them would really enjoy a challenging and hands-on profession like general contracting.

 

[MrsCobraBubbles]

Corruption would be if I greased a Disney employee to give me more fast passes. Optimizing the system isn't necessarily corrupt, nor is doing one's homework so that one knows the system better than someone else. Now making false reservations that one never intends to keep for the purpose of getting more fast passes is something I would neither do, not advocate.

I disagree. The intention of the fastpass system is to fairly distribute some good fortune among the paying customers. I really think Disney comes up with these improvements (magic bands, fastpass, DAS) with the interest of fairness, and to combat the inevitable corruption. However, the moment that someone figures out a way to "optimize" this system (and people always do) to give themselves an advantage over others, it is no longer fair and equal for all participants. The system has been corrupted.

I agree with you that throwaway ressies is worse than educating yourself in ways to get more fastpasses and opportunities to ride your favorite rides. I can't really explain why it seems worse to me, but I think it's on a whole other level.

 

[mom2rtk]

I disagree. The intention of the fastpass system is to fairly distribute some good fortune among the paying customers. I really think Disney comes up with these improvements (magic bands, fastpass, DAS) with the interest of fairness, and to combat the inevitable corruption. However, the moment that someone figures out a way to "optimize" this system (and people always do) to give themselves an advantage over others, it is no longer fair and equal for all participants. The system has been corrupted.

I agree with you that throwaway ressies is worse than educating yourself in ways to get more fastpasses and opportunities to ride your favorite rides. I can't really explain why it seems worse to me, but I think it's on a whole other level.

There is nothing remotely more fair about the new system compared to the old one. FP+ has exponentially more hacks than legacy.

FP+ is a lot of things. But "more fair" definitely isn't one of them.

 

[Cannot_Wait_4Disney]

I disagree. The intention of the fastpass system is to fairly distribute some good fortune among the paying customers. I really think Disney comes up with these improvements (magic bands, fastpass, DAS) with the interest of fairness, and to combat the inevitable corruption. However, the moment that someone figures out a way to "optimize" this system (and people always do) to give themselves an advantage over others, it is no longer fair and equal for all participants. The system has been corrupted.

I agree with you that throwaway ressies is worse than educating yourself in ways to get more fastpasses and opportunities to ride your favorite rides. I can't really explain why it seems worse to me, but I think it's on a whole other level.

Making knowingly false reservations without disclosing they are false to gain fast passes is lying to get something one isn't entitled to. Similarly, lying about a child's age is the same.

 

[DizBelle]

FTR - we did not haggle with nor lowball the landscaper. He came out, DH told him what we wanted to do, gave him the budget range, and he said "Ok".

And we have gone over the upper limit of the budget at this point. But DH did make changes along the way so that may be justified. But this isn't about how much we're paying for this work. It's about the work getting done.

 

[TheIncredibles!]

FTR - we did not haggle with nor lowball the landscaper. He came out, DH told him what we wanted to do, gave him the budget range, and he said "Ok".

And we have gone over the upper limit of the budget at this point. But DH did make changes along the way so that may be justified. But this isn't about how much we're paying for this work. It's about the work getting done.

It's certainly frustrating! Several summers ago we put a large inground pool in. It was a big job that was well planned out. We took down close to 30 tress, brought in over 30 loads of fill, had to bring in several loads of rock and gravel to build a temporary road parallel to our driveway, had to bring in a huge digger/pounder to get out a shelf of rock etc. It was a big job with a lot of planning ahead to insure things went as smooth as possible when construction started. When the date came to start, nobody showed up and no call. I had to call and found out that somebody else was moved head of us for some BS reason, then he started spouting weather delays but we hadn't had any weather issues. It was 6 weeks of this utter nonsense of him saying he was going to show up and not coming or saying he'd be there "first thing in the morning" only to find out that his version of "first thing in the morning" was 10am. THEN on top of that BS his workers were obnoxious. Demanding drinks and getting very pissy with me literally minutes after I had gotten home for the day because I hadn't left them anything to drink. Knocking on my door asking for food?!?! Knocking on my door asking if I could provide them with something other than water like Gatoraid or soda. GOING IN MY GARAGE and taking out my folding chairs so they can take their break in my garage then leaving the chairs in the middle of my garage. I was paying tens of thousands of dollars for these people to show up when they felt like it then they expected me to feed and water them as well. They brought NOTHING with them?!

On the flip side the next year when I did the stamped concrete and the fence those guys gave me a date and 8 am on that date there were at my house ready to go. One night I got a call ahead of time(imagine that!) telling me they would not be able to pour concrete the next day because of the weather so they'd be by the day after that. Everybody else just wouldn't show up and I'd have to track them down to find out what was going on.

No I did not negotiate myself down to such a price that the contractor decided to be resentful and act in a completely unprofessional way - they were just completely unprofessional to start. Thankfully we have a beautiful pool when all is said and done but the pool company and how they acted is still something I am pissed about.

 

[CPanther95]

Low-balling or going for the cheapest price has no bearing on how honorable a contractor is. He's either honorable or not, honest or not, competent or not, etc. You may reduce your chances of having a bad experience by putting more faith in reviews and referrals than simply on price - but you aren't making an honest contractor become dishonest by trying to get the best deal possible.

... and there are plenty of dishonest contractors at the high end of the price scale - probably just as many. They price themselves double where the legitimate contractors are and then prey on people - usually primarily seniors - with a hard sell approach and BS "facts" and scare tactics to coerce people into hiring them.