Are “good manners” a thing of the past?

[tzolkin]

My parents' generation would/does everything for show, meaning that you tell people what you think they want to hear and then you talk smack about them behind their backs the entire time...only for you to find out later that "everybody" has been gossiping about you and has drawn stupid conclusions about you. But sure, here's a nice cheese plate & jello salad to go with your side of 'stab you in the back.' You know what's rude? Being mad/upset at someone and talking to literally EVERYONE ELSE about your issue instead of discussing it 1-on-1 directly with the person.

This is exactly why I was curious about what "rude" behavior people were talking about. What is polite/correct to one person may be considered rude to someone else.

The people you refer to would likely go off about how "rude" a person was for asking to sit down and calmly discuss a conflict so they could find a resolution and prevent the same misunderstanding from happening in the future. How dare they be so bold in trying to have an actual conversation? Don't they know the "polite" thing to do would be to hold a grudge for years and talk about the person behind their back?

I do think there's also a cultural shift in what is considered being "respectful" to elders. I think in the past there was this mentality that young people should be silent regardless of how awful an older person is being. To people of that mindset, it doesn't matter how polite/calm/well intentioned the young person is, they are automatically dismissed as being "rude". My grandfather had a habit of belittling my mom (comparing her to her sister, constantly insulting her looks, etc) to the point of her crying. I once said, "Can you please stop being so mean? Can't you tell that you are hurting her feelings?" I was beaten and grounded for being "unbelievably rude and disrespectful" over it. If my children are ever in a similar situation where no one else was standing up for someone, I would be proud of them for speaking up. I don't see anything rude about it.

 

[Dcgc28]

Good grief. You went all in with that one. So much for my hope that people would stop with the generalizations.

It’s just an opinion it won’t hurt anyone. It’s not an attack on anyone. It’s just meant to point out that our generations are different and we’re focusing on different things.

If people don’t like that I understand and I respect it. But it’s not their choice to make.

 

[Tink-osophy]

Really, age is not a reliable indicator or an excuse, is it? .

Is anyone else as fed up as I am of all these labels and generalisations?

Do I hate rudeness in society - yep! Still, in my experience of unpleasant interactions, it's never been about age, sex, job title etc. It's about individuals. As soon as you generalise, you're going to misrepresent swathes of people and, potentially, offend.

For me, it's about just getting all people to look up and around and to value a friendly, supportive sense of community. I know that I don't communicate as well when I'm feeling insecure or on the defensive, but come across much better when I'm relaxed and feeling at ease.

I'd like it if we could all connect as individuals on the one level we absolutely have in common - being human beings. Isn't it in that one commonality we might better connect and empathise? ...Ahh, naïve me! ...But a girl can dream.

 

[CdnCarrie]

This is exactly why I was curious about what "rude" behavior people were talking about. What is polite/correct to one person may be considered rude to someone else.

The people you refer to would likely go off about how "rude" a person was for asking to sit down and calmly discuss a conflict so they could find a resolution and prevent the same misunderstanding from happening in the future. How dare they be so bold in trying to have an actual conversation? Don't they know the "polite" thing to do would be to hold a grudge for years and talk about the person behind their back?

I do think there's also a cultural shift in what is considered being "respectful" to elders. I think in the past there was this mentality that young people should be silent regardless of how awful an older person is being. To people of that mindset, it doesn't matter how polite/calm/well intentioned the young person is, they are automatically dismissed as being "rude". My grandfather had a habit of belittling my mom (comparing her to her sister, constantly insulting her looks, etc) to the point of her crying. I once said, "Can you please stop being so mean? Can't you tell that you are hurting her feelings?" I was beaten and grounded for being "unbelievably rude and disrespectful" over it. If my children are ever in a similar situation where no one else was standing up for someone, I would be proud of them for speaking up. I don't see anything rude about it.

Aww that's horribly sad! Just being old doesn't automatically confer respect. Respect must be earned at least partially. I'm sorry that happened to you.

 

[Tink-osophy]

I’m a young parent and it doesn’t bother me what others think about my parenting. To put it bluntly every group of old people that have ever existed and will ever exist have thought the same. It’s apart of being afraid of being left behind and it’s unfortunate. But to know what passed as okay socially, and sometimes legally, I’m honestly glad to be a “bad parent” and have “bad kids” because much worse can be said about past generations.

Hmm. For me, the way you've worded this undermines the point you're trying to make.

Most people believe their perspective is 'right' - and that's fine, of course - but 'being right' is never a free licence to insult those you perceive as 'wrong' -- in the name of being 'blunt'.

 

[Ms Bibbidi]

(Erased comment.)

 

[Dcgc28]

Hmm. For me, the way you've worded this undermines the point you're trying to make.

Most people believe their perspective is 'right' - and that's fine, of course - but 'being right' is never a free licence to insult those you perceive as 'wrong' -- in the name of being 'blunt'.

If it’s insulting to disagree then fair enough. But to me it’s just an opinion and is more or less meaningless from person to person.

I mean I love my mom and dad more than life itself. I just disagree with them in things socially. I don’t look at it as insulting, but perhaps the OP could be pointing to opinions like mine and calling them “rude” which is fine as well. It’s just now how I see it.

Edit to add my entire contribution to this thread came from a question asked “do I feel insulted by people saying this and that about our kids” and I don’t. I want to make sure people understand that’s all I was saying. I think previous generations did their best and the next generation will do their best. I may disagree with them in general I may not. I’m not attacking anyone or how they parent. It’s just a general statement.

 

[Tink-osophy]

This is exactly why I was curious about what "rude" behavior people were talking about. What is polite/correct to one person may be considered rude to someone else.

The people you refer to would likely go off about how "rude" a person was for asking to sit down and calmly discuss a conflict so they could find a resolution and prevent the same misunderstanding from happening in the future. How dare they be so bold in trying to have an actual conversation? Don't they know the "polite" thing to do would be to hold a grudge for years and talk about the person behind their back?

I do think there's also a cultural shift in what is considered being "respectful" to elders. I think in the past there was this mentality that young people should be silent regardless of how awful an older person is being. To people of that mindset, it doesn't matter how polite/calm/well intentioned the young person is, they are automatically dismissed as being "rude". My grandfather had a habit of belittling my mom (comparing her to her sister, constantly insulting her looks, etc) to the point of her crying. I once said, "Can you please stop being so mean? Can't you tell that you are hurting her feelings?" I was beaten and grounded for being "unbelievably rude and disrespectful" over it. If my children are ever in a similar situation where no one else was standing up for someone, I would be proud of them for speaking up. I don't see anything rude about it.

That's fair. What seems rude to one isn't necessarily considered rude by another, as with, say, humour.

We definitely needed/need to break free of the idea that some should just put up and shut up. That's bullying in the name of being polite. It's the abuse of power by those who have authority over others. As in your horrible experience. Sorry, you were subjected to that.

Overall, I do think it's possible to be clear and polite at the same time. It's easier, though, when it's not a competition between who's 'right' and who's 'wrong' -- but about acknowledging different experiences and perspectives.

 

[Tink-osophy]

If it’s insulting to disagree then fair enough. But to me it’s just an opinion and is more or less meaningless from person to person.

I mean I love my mom and dad more than life itself. I just disagree with them in things socially. I don’t look at it as insulting, but perhaps the OP could be pointing to opinions like mine and calling them “rude” which is fine as well. It’s just now how I see it.

Edit to add my entire contribution to this thread came from a question asked “do I feel insulted by people saying this and that about our kids” and I don’t. I want to make sure people understand that’s all I was saying. I think previous generations did their best and the next generation will do their best. I may disagree with them in general I may not. I’m not attacking anyone or how they parent. It’s just a general statement.

I didn't say it was insulting to disagree! I said, that I thought the way you worded it undermined the point you were making. You could have said it without so negatively generalising about so many other groups of people, but you went for "blunt" instead!

I don't think your opinion is rude at all, but I just think the way you put it in your original post would have made a stronger argument against others' generalisations if you hadn't made pretty harsh and sweeping generalisations yourself. That's all!

 

[Mysterian]

Do people still teach their children manners? Or has it gone away with the dinosaurs?

If the research is correct, the dinosaurs were not known for their manners.

 

[CdnCarrie]

Just to clarify my biggest beef was the poster who said that younger people don't have morals. I will always stand by my opinion that is not a nice thing to say.

I may have come out strong but I find these generational wars tiresome and it's a knee jerk reaction to respond negatively back to someone dissing the younger generations.

Several vintage Facebook groups I'm in, including one I moderate, we have to really scan for this stuff.

It's constant "we walked a thousand miles uphill to school and the wimps today get snow days" statements. that are just wrong. First of all our city had the first snow day this winter in 25 years so no they don't. And these kinds of statements bring nothing to the discussion.
Manners (and morality) like everything evolves with society. Do we really want to go back to the social norms of the 50s when manners were so much better - lack of women's rights, segregation, homophobia - but hey better manners!

Some people tend to look back at things with rose coloured glasses and not everything was perfect back then either.

it bothered me so much that I did a whole thread about it a few months ago.
https://www.disboards.com/threads/younger-generation-spinoff.3860612/

Same poster set me off then too! Guess they aren't evolving lol. Time to use the block feature.

 

[Dcgc28]

I didn't say it was insulting to disagree! I said, that I thought the way you worded it undermined the point you were making. You could have said it without so negatively generalising about so many other groups of people, but you went for "blunt" instead!

I don't think your opinion is rude at all, but I just think the way you put it in your original post would have made a stronger argument against others' generalisations if you hadn't made pretty harsh and sweeping generalisations yourself. That's all!

Fair enough!

 

[Colleen27]

On a superficial level, manners have always changed over time. The "you're welcome" vs. "no problem" debate is an example of this right now, but the underlying issue is nothing new. Language and means of relating to one another have always changed, and some among the older generations have always gotten upset over those changes. But I don't think that's the only thing going on right now, in this particular moment in time. It feels less like a decline of manners, which to me are the formalities and habits that express respect, as of the underlying civility and respect for one another that are the foundation for those expressions.

I don't think it is a "kids these days" issue so much as a product of our social/economic/political stratification as a society and a logical endpoint of decades of "the customer is always right" cliches, paired with this unique (in our lifetimes, anyway) historical moment of resurgent socialization after a period of involuntary and for many controversial isolation. Too many people simply don't think of most of the people they interact with on a day-to-day basis as equals deserving of basic consideration right now. And that's not limited to young people. In fact, I see it the most in the middle aged "I work hard and pay my taxes, I *deserve* XXXX" entitlement mindset. Those are the sorts that are yelling at umpires at their kids' sporting events, trying to tell teachers how to do their job or arguing that little Junior should have a better grade or fewer disciplinary consequences, berating cast members at Disney World, not tipping waitstaff over mask mandates or other things completely out of the server's control, etc. And yes, their kids pick up on and repeat these attitudes. But they're not coming from kids. They're coming from a whole generation of constantly aggrieved middle aged parents who seem to think they're entitled to a life without inconvenience, never mind actual hardship.

 

[tzolkin]

On a superficial level, manners have always changed over time. The "you're welcome" vs. "no problem" debate is an example of this right now, but the underlying issue is nothing new. Language and means of relating to one another have always changed, and some among the older generations have always gotten upset over those changes. But I don't think that's the only thing going on right now, in this particular moment in time. It feels less like a decline of manners, which to me are the formalities and habits that express respect, as of the underlying civility and respect for one another that are the foundation for those expressions.

I don't think it is a "kids these days" issue so much as a product of our social/economic/political stratification as a society and a logical endpoint of decades of "the customer is always right" cliches, paired with this unique (in our lifetimes, anyway) historical moment of resurgent socialization after a period of involuntary and for many controversial isolation. Too many people simply don't think of most of the people they interact with on a day-to-day basis as equals deserving of basic consideration right now. And that's not limited to young people. In fact, I see it the most in the middle aged "I work hard and pay my taxes, I *deserve* XXXX" entitlement mindset. Those are the sorts that are yelling at umpires at their kids' sporting events, trying to tell teachers how to do their job or arguing that little Junior should have a better grade or fewer disciplinary consequences, berating cast members at Disney World, not tipping waitstaff over mask mandates or other things completely out of the server's control, etc. And yes, their kids pick up on and repeat these attitudes. But they're not coming from kids. They're coming from a whole generation of constantly aggrieved middle aged parents who seem to think they're entitled to a life without inconvenience, never mind actual hardship.

These are exactly the points I wanted to express, but much more clearly.

 

[Tink-osophy]

On a superficial level, manners have always changed over time. The "you're welcome" vs. "no problem" debate is an example of this right now, but the underlying issue is nothing new. Language and means of relating to one another have always changed, and some among the older generations have always gotten upset over those changes. But I don't think that's the only thing going on right now, in this particular moment in time. It feels less like a decline of manners, which to me are the formalities and habits that express respect, as of the underlying civility and respect for one another that are the foundation for those expressions.

I don't think it is a "kids these days" issue so much as a product of our social/economic/political stratification as a society and a logical endpoint of decades of "the customer is always right" cliches, paired with this unique (in our lifetimes, anyway) historical moment of resurgent socialization after a period of involuntary and for many controversial isolation. Too many people simply don't think of most of the people they interact with on a day-to-day basis as equals deserving of basic consideration right now. And that's not limited to young people. In fact, I see it the most in the middle aged "I work hard and pay my taxes, I *deserve* XXXX" entitlement mindset. Those are the sorts that are yelling at umpires at their kids' sporting events, trying to tell teachers how to do their job or arguing that little Junior should have a better grade or fewer disciplinary consequences, berating cast members at Disney World, not tipping waitstaff over mask mandates or other things completely out of the server's control, etc. And yes, their kids pick up on and repeat these attitudes. But they're not coming from kids. They're coming from a whole generation of constantly aggrieved middle aged parents who seem to think they're entitled to a life without inconvenience, never mind actual hardship.

Great post!

I mentioned it briefly in my post, but I was just thinking it would be good to look more into the underlying issues -- and here you are!

I, especially, agree with what you say about the (misleading) idea of 'the customer is always right' creating entitlement and a lack of openness and connection with others..

I, also, think that our blame-resistant society is partly ...to blame! As a society we don't want to be (and in many cases, daren't be) wrong and that makes for a lot of stressful fight or flight attitudes.

At the end of the day, blaming kids doesn't get to the heart of the issue. does it?!

 

[Planogirl]

I think that a lot of people feel afraid and helpless and that causes them to strike out. There will always be creeps and it isn’t right to blame others for your problems of course but I think that way too many people are struggling with life nowadays.

As for rude people, I find them in every age group. I deal with lots of people every day and most are nice but the nasty ones can really throw you off. I feel bad for some of them because it has to be hard to be so angry.

 

[NotUrsula]

Yes, some things that fell under the traditional umbrella of manners were not all to the good. Hypocrisy was always an issue, and frankly, still is, though perhaps it manifests a bit differently than it once did. However, I really don't think that's any good reason not to keep the aspects of "manners" that made simple human interaction easier.

What I miss about the simple social customs that were taught and reinforced when I was a child was the sense of social comfort they gave. I knew that when I walked into a particular occasion that I would be properly dressed for it, and because I knew the expected "script", that I would not embarass myself as long as I stuck to it. I knew how to address strangers and knew how they would almost surely respond. I find that as I grow older I've developed real social anxiety about the lack of general rules to social occasions now; socializing was a lot easier when there was a script.

The thing with the pandemic is that we are all rusty at face-to-face social interaction with strangers; we came to rely on the mute button. the anonymity of email, and the cloak of technology to let us say things we would never have felt bold enough to say in person (and within slapping distance.) We used the stress of fear as an excuse to indulge ourselves in selfish behaviour, and we grew blase about hurting people we didn't know very well, just because it was less stressful from our own POV. It's going to take a long time to get that genie back into the bottle, if we ever manage to do it, but I hope that we do. Simple civility, universally practiced, greases the skids of human interaction and reduces needless conflict.

 

[NannyBeBe]

I am an old lady and can honestly say that I have rarely felt that I have been disrespected by a young person. I believe that if we older folks do not look askance at the young person who may have purple hair, face piercings, tattoos, etc., then we will not be treated any differently because we are old. I may not prefer their choice of how they appear, but if it is not hurting me, then let it be.

 

[Jennasis]

Rude would be the adult man pushing his baby stroller at MK rope drop last week who literally cut me off and almost knocked me down (he was full on sprinting). His wife was hot on his heels and as I fell backwards into DH his wife cackled "Good One Baby....that's how we do it!!"

Classy.

 

[Sinder]

Yes, absolutely.
As far as generalizing- we cannot possibly know every single person of a specific generation but we can notice trends that many people of a generation follow.
I see a general lack of respect for others and I think that leads to general rudeness.
I also think that every older generation has felt the same about the younger generations because they have been around to notice the changes in trends. The younger ones of course feel they are right because times change or whatever but what they don’t get is that one day they will be the ones complaining about rudeness, or no respect or whatever else in the future.
None of us are 100% anything, and that includes being right.