Apparently I dislike FP+...alot

[itchin2go]

We are exclusively on site guests and absolutely think it's a much more level playing field than fp ever was.

Fp had it's problems for lots of people, not just us.

I think what you're saying is that it's a more level playing field FOR YOU.

That's not a level playing field at all! That means the playing field is tilted in your favor, and consequently, that the new system is not as good for *some* others.

Just look at your first clause: "We are exclusively on site guests...". Right there, you're acknowledging that the playing field is NOT level for offsite guests.

It's also not level for onsite guests who have a short stay, say 2 or 3 days.

It's certainly NOT level for those who can't purchase advance tickets and/or link them to MDE.

"It's more level for me" doesn't mean "level" at all!

 

[cakebaker]

I wasn't referencing riding the same ride 7-8 times. I was talking about getting 1 FP, for 1 attraction. Yes, A&E and 7DMT are only 2 attractions. I never implied otherwise. However for those people for whom those attractions are a big deal, and were unable to get them at 60 days despite being onsite guests, I would imagine there exist some who do not feel their playing field was level.

I will wholeheartedly agree that the playing field is*different* now, and favors many people who did not like legacy, but I equally wholeheartedly disagree that it is level. I just don't believe something is a level playing field when good portions of the availability - even if it is just a few rides - is gone before someone is even eligible to book.



I've always acknowledged that legacy didn't work well for some.

I get and appreciate that FP+ works better for those people. But the fact that FP+ works better for them does not mean the playing field as a whole is any more level. It's just tilted differently than it was before.

I realize the 7-8 times riding wasn't what you were talking about, but that's a pretty common complaint about fp+- it doesn't allow for back to back riding of popular rides, and they're right it doesn't. You can ride multiple times, but it requires a different strategy.

I didn't say it made the field perfectly level- no system will. I said it's much more level and I believe it is. I think more people have access to the headliners than did before. It doesn't matter if fp's are out at 12:10 am or noon if you don't get to the parks until noon. Out is out. And if at 10am the return time is too late for you to use it's the same as being out entirely for that guest. People not being able to ride the same ride many times over again opens that ride up to other people.

But even if it were true that fp+ takes the advantage away from some and gives it to others- so what? Isn't it about time other people had the advantage? If we can't have perfectly level- let's at least allow it not to always tilt the same way.

It doesn't mean those that easily did what they wanted can't do anything- they just can't do it like they used to. We managed for many years to tour the parks, get what we wanted done and under less than perfect conditions. The only thing that is virtually eliminated is back to back re-rides of the headliners. For those people, there is no fix, there is no plan or strategy that will work. Even the multiple band gimmick doesn't help them. That had to go in order to allow more people access.

 

[practicallyperfect77]

If we put the system issue aside, my guess would be that more FPs would be available to start the day than they are now, but for the most popular attractions, they would run out significantly faster than they did with paper FP.

If FPs were available by phone, and first became available when the park opened, you could create a new kind of phenomenon at rope drop. Instead of rushing to attractions, guests would start working their phones the instant they get through the gates, causing big logjams at the entrances.

You may be right. No one will know until it's tested. Personally I would rather see them delayed a bit. And maybe they aren't available on phones. Maybe the old paper FP machines are converted to a tapstile and that is how you get your FP. Or you could get at a kiosk too.

 

[wisblue]

You may be right. No one will know until it's tested. Personally I would rather see them delayed a bit. And maybe they aren't available on phones. Maybe the old paper FP machines are converted to a tapstile and that is how you get your FP. Or you could get at a kiosk too.

I seem to recall that there was a lot of discussion about this when they first went to the fourth FP system. There almost has to be some delay before people with any advance FPs get them same day to give guests who can't or don't get them in advance to have a crack at something.

No matter what you do, there is going to be a juggling act and some people are not going to be satisfied. Onsite/offsite, rope drop or not, repeat riders or satisfied doing as many things as possible once, plan in advance or do everything on the fly, park hop or not, etc. etc. Good luck making all of those factions happy.

My best case scenario would be to allow the 3 advance FPs to be made in more than one park and to allow a fourth FP after you've used one of the first 3. And maybe to avoid the mad scramble in the first hour you could never get a 4th FP until after 11 AM. But, I realize that Disney isn't likely to cater specifically to my wishes, so I do the best I can with whatever system they decide makes most sense for their guests as a whole.

 

[Angel Ariel]

I didn't say it made the field perfectly level- no system will. I said it's much more level and I believe it is. I think more people have access to the headliners than did before.

If that's your definition of level, then I understand where you're coming from. I think Disney could have accomplished the above in other ways.

It doesn't matter if fp's are out at 12:10 am or noon if you don't get to the parks until noon. Out is out.

I disagree with this. If I sign in at 12am at my 60 day mark, when I am first eligible, and I am unable to procure FP+ *at all* for A&E/7DMT/Wishes/FOF (all of which were the case for me) for any day of my trip- then I did not even have the *opportunity* to get those FP+. They were gone for the whole trip before I was eligible to book them. Nothing I can do about it. I can stalk cancellation threads and MDE and hope someone cancels something when I happen to be looking for it, but there's nothing I can do to *guarantee* that I can get a FP for that.

OTOH, if I *chose* not to get to the parks until noon under legacy and found those FPs gone, I could make a different choice the next day. I could choose to get to the park earlier and obtain one if it was a big deal to me. I could choose to get to RD, which would guarantee I got a FP. No, I wouldn't have a choice in when that FP was, but I would have the option to take the FP or not.

That is the difference in "level" to me. Under FP+, if FP+ are gone for something I want when my window opens, there's nothing I can do about it. Under legacy I could have made a different choice the next day and had a different outcome.

Obviously some are OK with that, and that's fine. I'm aware it's only a couple of attractions that it is an issue with - just as it was only a couple of attractions that consistently ran out of legacy by noon. Clearly a couple of rides being an issue with legacy was a big deal to some. I would think it would be understandable why being shut out of a couple of attractions just because of one's check in day is equally an issue for others.

 

[mom2rtk]

I disagree with this. If I sign in at 12am at my 60 day mark, when I am first eligible, and I am unable to procure FP+ *at all* for A&E/7DMT/Wishes/FOF (all of which were the case for me) for any day of my trip- then I did not even have the *opportunity* to get those FP+. They were gone for the whole trip before I was eligible to book them. Nothing I can do about it. I can stalk cancellation threads and MDE and hope someone cancels something when I happen to be looking for it, but there's nothing I can do to *guarantee* that I can get a FP for that.

OTOH, if I *chose* not to get to the parks until noon under legacy and found those FPs gone, I could make a different choice the next day. I could choose to get to the park earlier and obtain one if it was a big deal to me. I could choose to get to RD, which would guarantee I got a FP. No, I wouldn't have a choice in when that FP was, but I would have the option to take the FP or not.

That is the difference in "level" to me. Under FP+, if FP+ are gone for something I want when my window opens, there's nothing I can do about it. Under legacy I could have made a different choice the next day and had a different outcome.

Totally agree. That's a pretty critical difference.

 

[cakebaker]

I disagree with this. If I sign in at 12am at my 60 day mark, when I am first eligible, and I am unable to procure FP+ *at all* for A&E/7DMT/Wishes/FOF (all of which were the case for me) for any day of my trip- then I did not even have the *opportunity* to get those FP+. They were gone for the whole trip before I was eligible to book them. Nothing I can do about it. I can stalk cancellation threads and MDE and hope someone cancels something when I happen to be looking for it, but there's nothing I can do to *guarantee* that I can get a FP for that.

And the good thing is you know that in advance rather than how we had to do it- walk in the park and hope something was available and if it wasn't, then we were out of luck and having to make major adjustments to a plan we spent a lot of time figuring out. Now we know what we have and don't have.

OTOH, if I *chose* not to get to the parks until noon under legacy and found those FPs gone, I could make a different choice the next day. I could choose to get to the park earlier and obtain one if it was a big deal to me. I could choose to get to RD, which would guarantee I got a FP. No, I wouldn't have a choice in when that FP was, but I would have the option to take the FP or not.

But I was being forced to make that choice under fp- so it's really not a choice other than a choice to alter the way we toured the parks to fit the system in place. And since we park hopped and didn't have an unlimited vacation, it was a major shift in scheduling of the parks to be able to get back to that park to ride a specific ride. It wasn't as simple as you would have it sound. In reality, we did what I would suggest with fp+- ride it when crowds are lower. Of course, not knowing in advance made that difficult at times. We adjusted for that at home with our park day schedule because we knew from previous trips how it worked. Not everyone has that luxury.


But, it's something that can be done with fp+ as well. It means, in the case of not being able to get fp+ for the 2 rides at WDW that are difficult to come by, you choose to ride them when crowds are lower- and ride them stand by. The point isn't to just have a fp, the point is to minimize standing in line. It's just as "easy" to do this with fp+ as it was "easy" with fp.

Obviously some are OK with that, and that's fine. I'm aware it's only a couple of attractions that it is an issue with - just as it was only a couple of attractions that consistently ran out of legacy by noon. Clearly a couple of rides being an issue with legacy was a big deal to some. I would think it would be understandable why being shut out of a couple of attractions just because of one's check in day is equally an issue for others.

Let's not minimize what the shortages were under fp. It wasn't a couple- It was routinely, TOT, TSMM, RRC, Soarin', TT and there were others in the MK as well. Not a couple. With fp+ it's 2, each in different parks and certainly not everyone is shut out of those 2 although admittedly they book quickly.

As I said, it's more of level playing field and the tilt it does have at least isn't still tilting towards the same group of people.

 

[wisblue]

I disagree with this. If I sign in at 12am at my 60 day mark, when I am first eligible, and I am unable to procure FP+ *at all* for A&E/7DMT/Wishes/FOF (all of which were the case for me) for any day of my trip- then I did not even have the *opportunity* to get those FP+. They were gone for the whole trip before I was eligible to book them. Nothing I can do about it. I can stalk cancellation threads and MDE and hope someone cancels something when I happen to be looking for it, but there's nothing I can do to *guarantee* that I can get a FP for that.

OTOH, if I *chose* not to get to the parks until noon under legacy and found those FPs gone, I could make a different choice the next day. I could choose to get to the park earlier and obtain one if it was a big deal to me. I could choose to get to RD, which would guarantee I got a FP. No, I wouldn't have a choice in when that FP was, but I would have the option to take the FP or not.

That is the difference in "level" to me. Under FP+, if FP+ are gone for something I want when my window opens, there's nothing I can do about it. Under legacy I could have made a different choice the next day and had a different outcome.

Obviously some are OK with that, and that's fine. I'm aware it's only a couple of attractions that it is an issue with - just as it was only a couple of attractions that consistently ran out of legacy by noon. Clearly a couple of rides being an issue with legacy was a big deal to some. I would think it would be understandable why being shut out of a couple of attractions just because of one's check in day is equally an issue for others.

If your goal is to ride something like the mine train with a FP, the way to get those FPs has obviously changed. But, if your goal is to ride the mine train with a short wait, things really aren't that different than they would be with paper FP, unless and until they actually eliminate standby lines there.

In your example, if you chose not to get to the park at noon and FPs were out, you could always try to get to the park earlier another day so you could get one. With FP+, if you are unable to get a FP in advance, and if riding the ride is important to you, you can always get to the park at opening and ride with a very short or reasonable wait time. And, you have the added advantage of knowing in advance that you don't have a FP, which could be very important if your trip only allows one day at the MK. Plus, you would already have 3 FPs to use at other attractions.

I have said this before, but if paper FP were still in place, I have no doubt that, as long as the ride is as much in demand as it is now, as soon as the MK opened lines at the FP kiosks and the standby line would grow as fast as or faster that they ever did at TSMM. The practical result would be that if you wanted to ride with a short wait, you pretty much had to be there at or shortly after opening or wait until the end of the day and hope the line gets short enough then.

I know some people look at it differently, but if I'm going to be at the park at opening anyway, and want to ride the single most in demand attraction in the park, I'm going to go right there and ride it instead of getting in line to get a FP so I can ride it later at a time that may be less convenient.

With FP+, if I don't get a FP for 7DMT, and if I really want to ride it, I will get to the park at opening and go right on. Even if I have to wait 15-20 minutes (which is the longest we ever waited at TSMM when we went directly there) that will be OK because I will still have 3 FPs lined up for 3 other attractions at times when I know I can use them.

 

[Angel Ariel]

If your goal is to ride something like the mine train with a FP, the way to get those FPs has obviously changed. But, if your goal is to ride the mine train with a short wait, things really aren't that different than they would be with paper FP, unless and until they actually eliminate standby lines there.

My post was not about touring styles and decisions. It was about objectively looking at FP+ and whether or not *the system* is a "level playing field."

My contention is that no, the system isn't a level playing field, because it is entirely possible for the entire allotment of FP+ for an attraction to be booked up before a person is even eligible to book FP+.

It does not happen for a lot of attractions, no, but I personally had it happen for A&E/Wishes/FOF. I was able to get SDMT, but within 5 mins of my window opening it was gone for my entire trip...so people who checked in the day after me and are going into the parks over the same days would have found no availability for their trips.

I personally can't call a system "level" when availability for something can be entirely gone before someone is even eligible to try for it. With legacy, everyone started over at the same place every day. The full day's worth of FPs were opened up every morning. Whether or not people *chose* to do so for whatever reason was their choice, but the opportunity was there.

Everyone had the *opportunity* to get a legacy FP for any attraction, any day. The same cannot be said for FP+.

Of course there are ways to mitigate not getting a FP+. The same could be said for legacy as well. RD is a big way to mitigate that under both systems. But, as I said, my post/point wasn't about touring styles or personal choices, it was solely about availability within the system.

 

[itchin2go]

And the good thing is you know that in advance rather than how we had to do it- walk in the park and hope something was available and if it wasn't, then we were out of luck and having to make major adjustments to a plan we spent a lot of time figuring out. Now we know what we have and don't have.

That makes the new system more transparent (admittedly so), not more level.

 

[Angel Ariel]

And the good thing is you know that in advance rather than how we had to do it- walk in the park and hope something was available and if it wasn't, then we were out of luck and having to make major adjustments to a plan we spent a lot of time figuring out. Now we know what we have and don't have.

As I responded to wisblue, my post wasn't about touring styles or personal choices. It was strictly about what *opportunity* exists to get a FP.

But I was being forced to make that choice under fp- so it's really not a choice other than a choice to alter the way we toured the parks to fit the system in place. And since we park hopped and didn't have an unlimited vacation, it was a major shift in scheduling of the parks to be able to get back to that park to ride a specific ride. It wasn't as simple as you would have it sound. In reality, we did what I would suggest with fp+- ride it when crowds are lower. Of course, not knowing in advance made that difficult at times. We adjusted for that at home with our park day schedule because we knew from previous trips how it worked. Not everyone has that luxury.

I didn't say it was simple, I didn't say it was ideal. I wasn't putting any kind of value judgment on it. But it was an *option*. If you *really* wanted to get a FP, there was a way you could do it. Under FP+, if you *really* want a FP+ for something, and availability is gone when your window opens, there is nothing you can do to change that.

You can apply park touring strategies to mitigate it, yes. But again, not what nmy post was about.

Let's not minimize what the shortages were under fp. It wasn't a couple- It was routinely, TOT, TSMM, RRC, Soarin', TT and there were others in the MK as well. Not a couple. With fp+ it's 2, each in different parks and certainly not everyone is shut out of those 2 although admittedly they book quickly.

I'm not minimizing anything. In *my personal experience*, the only rides that ran out of FP before noon were TSMM and Soarin, and occasionally TT. We never saw TOT or RNRC run out before we left the park (and we usually leave around 2-3). We always had mountain FP availability in MK well into the evening as well. Again - my *personal* experience, I understand the experience of others is different depending on various things like crowd levels and time of year.

Even in FP/FP+ discussions from over a year ago, the vast majority of the comments were about how FP+ would make it better for TSMM and Soarin'. Even 2 out of the 3 or 4 quotes you posted as evidence earlier in this thread were *solely* about TSMM.

As I said, it's more of level playing field and the tilt it does have at least isn't still tilting towards the same group of people.

I think it far more favors the return guest than it does the infrequent visitor - again, based on my personal experience.

The friends I am planning a trip for were VERY overwhelmed by the idea of FP+. the friend who is joining DH and I on our trip this week was equally overwhelmed, which is why I've planned the whole trip myself. My brother and SIL are wanting to go for the Wine & Dine 1/2 marathon weekend next year, and they are anxiously waiting our report from our trip this year because they are also overwhelmed by the idea of FP+. There are 2 other boards I'm on, not Disney boards, where I've helped people plan trips and on both of them, *every* person who has posted has initially said how overwhelmed they were by the idea of FP+. These are tech savvy, smartphone carrying, well educated individuals, who all independently (and without any input from myself) have *initiated* conversations with me because of how complicated they feel it is to go to Disney. I want to make it quite clear that this is how they *initiated* conversations with me, so that it is clear that I did not in any way influence them in that feeling. That is the feeling that they approached me with.

I think that is true for any system, though. Those that are informed will always have a leg up on those who are less informed.

 

[cakebaker]

Even 2 out of the 3 or 4 quotes you posted as evidence earlier in this thread were *solely* about TSMM.

Just wanted to address this- I also said in that post that there were other posts in regards to the other rides just as much. I wasn't saving every post as I read it, I just happened to have the tsmm thread up when I started posting here. There were similar complaints about other rides so don't take that to mean the complaints were only in regards to TSMM.

Here's what I said:

Here's a few from 2011. Just happens that the thread I was reading happened to be talking about TSMM, but there are others that discuss other rides having much the same issues.

Personally, I don't have to read old threads to know that's how it was. I visited many times over the years and never failed to see it happen consistently.

 

[Angel Ariel]

Personally, I don't have to read old threads to know that's how it was. I visited many times over the years and never failed to see it happen consistently.

Nor do I need to read old threads to know that that was NOT how it was for us.

I acknowledged in my post that my experience wouldn't be the same as others. Yours, however, when you say I'm "minimizing" something, comes across as dismissive of my experience. In *my personal experience* the only 2 rides that consistently ran out before noon were TSMM and Soarin. I don't need you to validate it or search old threads to know that that is true for *our* experiences

 

[practicallyperfect77]

Nor do I need to read old threads to know that that was NOT how it was for us.

I acknowledged in my post that my experience wouldn't be the same as others. Yours, however, when you say I'm "minimizing" something, comes across as dismissive of my experience. In *my personal experience* the only 2 rides that consistently ran out before noon were TSMM and Soarin. I don't need you to validate it or search old threads to know that that is true for *our* experiences

And for an example, I arrived in Epcot on Feb 28, 2012 about 3:30 and was able to get a FP- for Soarin. Yes it was for 8-9 at night but there were times....in at least one specific example I can think of where I was able to get a FP- for Soarin' after noon. And yet on my recent trip, I wasn't able to get a FP+ at 2pm for PotC?

I love your posts AA. I hope you have a fantastic glitch free trip!

Edited b/c I just checked FB and the FP for soarin' was pulled at 5:40 and was for 8:25-9:25 at night. Memory was off a little. But just wanted an example out there of a time where Soarin' was available way after noon and this wasn't a completely dead time like Sept.

 

[itchin2go]

And for an example, I arrived in Epcot on Feb 28, 2012 about 3:30 and was able to get a FP- for Soarin. Yes it was for 8-9 at night but there were times....in at least one specific example I can think of where I was able to get a FP- for Soarin' after noon. And yet on my recent trip, I wasn't able to get a FP+ at 2pm for PotC?

I love your posts AA. I hope you have a fantastic glitch free trip!

Edited b/c I just checked FB and the FP for soarin' was pulled at 5:40 and was for 8:25-9:25 at night. Memory was off a little. But just wanted an example out there of a time where Soarin' was available way after noon and this wasn't a completely dead time like Sept.

Likewise, we never had trouble pulling a FP- for Soarin later in the day (certainly post-lunch), but you're right - they were always for late at night. For what it's worth, we always travelled in January or October.

 

[cakebaker]

Nor do I need to read old threads to know that that was NOT how it was for us.

And that would be why I think the new system is more fair and you don't. It's not just more fair for me, it's more fair for people who travel during the busy season and people who park hop. Those who can visit when the crowds are lower have less problems with lots of things- stand by and reserving fp+ both. It's when it's busy that you need any kind of fp.

Just in regards to Soarin', here's a few snippets just from 1 thread in the summer of 2012. Summer is when we have to go- we have no choice.

Soarin' FP have been gone by 11/1130 the two days we were in EPCOT this week.

... around 12 or so and fastpass for Soarin' were for about 2 hours before closing. I imagine they were gone by 1

Right now (12:43pm eastern ) They predict them to be gone by 1:30pm. Standby is 70 min.

These all reflect our experience for Soarin before fp+ began.

I'm quite sure those visiting at low crowd times in the past got passes later and earlier. That's not when we visit.

 

[itchin2go]

And that would be why I think the new system is more fair and you don't. It's not just more fair for me, it's more fair for people who travel during the busy season and people who park hop.

You don't know that, and you can't speak for these broad groups of people. If it's so fair for everyone, why are there so many complaints?

 

[jahber]

My brain is literally exploding at the idea the FP+ is more fair than FP- . Ok, not *literally* literally, but I may be getting a headache.

People who are staying offsite or who have APs can't get 7DMT, A&E, other meet n greets, fireworks, or parades (and sometimes ETWB and often TSMM, the holy grail and savior of FP+) FP+ AT ALL and this is more fair?

This is really starting get absurd. I just want to be able to get a FP+ for mine train so I don't have to make my husband sit with the baby for 60+ minutes while I wait in line, or wake up at 6 am so I can get the kids up and drive the 45 minutes to WDW for rope drop. But whatever. I'm sure the ride will still be there when my infant is weaned and new rides have been built to take some of the demand away. (New rides. Ha! See, at least I still have my sense of humor!)

 

[cakebaker]

.... wake up at 6 am so I can get the kids up and drive the 45 minutes to WDW for rope drop. ...

I get in a car and drive 1200 miles each way with a 2 yr old and I want him to be able to ride SDMT too. Just having to get up early and drive 45 minutes sounds like heaven to me. Guess it's all a matter of one's perspective, isn't it?

I can only imagine how impossible legacy fp's would be to get as popular as this ride seems to be.

 

[Nancyg56]

Ha! I can guarantee many of us AP and offsite people who would like to ride 7DMT once without waiting for 60+ minutes don't find the playing field very level either. Then there's the A&E, other meet n greets, Wishes, and parades we can't get FP+ for. But other than that, it's totally a level playing field. Oh. And TSMM. But other than that, totally level.

I never meant to imply that this system is perfect, but the other one was not either. There is nothing that will work for every guest in every situation, but I think that as this one is tweaked, it will become more of a benefit than a hindrance to most. It probably will not help folks who wing it, but Legacy FP was not a big boon for them either.