Apoplectic

[lugnut33]

It also impacts costs for homeowners. If your city doesn't meet a certain rating with the fire services, your homeowners insurance can go up significantly. We just went through a thing here where the city was desperate to open another fire station to avoid losing the rating.

Sort of a double whammy, let's cut your services and (potentially) let you see your insurance rates go up!

There's another huge ripoff, insurance companies.

 

[wilde_oscar]

Orlando is not the first city to go though this situation... nor will it be the last. Is there a rash of fire deaths that we are just not hearing about from the last recession, or the one before that, or the 12 in the 20th century? Which is more likely, the people impacted by the budget cuts are blowing things out of proportion... or elected officials are committing crimes of omission designed to kill their constituents? One of those two options includes prison time.

Someone made a bad deal when times were good, taxpayers are getting screwed while the basketball players get richer... who do you think had the better attorneys working on the deal? But the deal is made, and there are consequences to breaking the deal that are worse than the original deal. It is the way the world works.

 

[Stroller Boy]

I don't think you'll find anyone in Orlando claiming they overspend on fire or police services. Historically, these things are not ever 'over-funded' (not just here in Orlando, but anywhere). In 'boom' times, it's things like arenas that get funded - the assumption being that the 'boom' will continue. That's what happened here - as the news story I reference in the blog points out, these projects (the Magic arena, the performing arts center, upgrades to the Citrust Bowl) were approved on the assumption that tourist tax revenue would continue to increase. There was no consideration or 'what if' scenario about the effects of a downturn when these plans were being made. So, the ones that will ultimately pay the price are the kids (fewer school services, fewer teachers) and the taxpayers (fewer resources for law enforcement and public services). It's the multi-millionaire basketball players who remain largely unaffected.

Pete

True...true...so why do us regular folks keep buying tickets to and sell out these pro sports arenas feeding into the marketing machine that is pro sports? Where's the fan revolt? Personally, I rarely make it a pro event (couple of Red Sox games here and there...and those tickets are ridiculous). Cities will continue to invest there until fans decide to stay home. 2009 will be an interesting year as I think everyone gets it by now that current economic times aren't going to end anytime soon. I've never been a big fan of State money being used for things like pro sport stadiums and whatnot...not since CT got screwed by Kraft and the Patriots on two occasions when he never really intended to move the team...yet, they allowed CT to spend tax dollars on plans and God knows what else to try and lure them here.... However, there are times where they can capitalize long term on those dollars spent and end up investing more into the community. Of course...you need competent leaders to make this happen....wherever they are...

On the school front, I don't think CT would be a good comparison to FL as I understand that Florida has some greater challenges from what I hear (have relatives in the Tampa area). So perhaps you're on the money there. If the initial investment in the public service is insufficient then this is just whacked. On the flip side, there are areas where just throwing more money at a problem doesn't make the issue better. Kinda why I'd support a competitive school environment. But I'm guessing this really isn't the place for a full blown discussion on that!

Again, good rant, really enjoy the discussion/education.

 

[noladave]

Dude, I hear your pain, but at least you don't live in the lovely looney tune that I live in - New Orleans.

I would take your mayor in a heartbeat over ours - he's definitely got some dementia going on, some amnesia, and some plain old "preacher" that comes out to throw "racisim" anytime someone criticizes him. We have a city ordinance that allows only 60 take home cars for city employees to use. OUr new inspector general found at least 300, and he's still counting. Our lovely Mayor doesn't see a problem with this..

Lord, it if wasn't such a great city, I would leave in a heartbeat. I'm just counting down the days until he leaves office.

 

[WebmasterPete]

True...true...so why do us regular folks keep buying tickets to and sell out these pro sports arenas feeding into the marketing machine that is pro sports?

Orlando Magic games are by no stretch of the imagination "full" (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ba...izzlies-attendance-woes-mirror?urn=nba,122913)

As I mentioned on previous shows, not even the locals care about the Magic. This is a point that should not be overlooked - THEY CAN'T FILL THE STADIUM - they can barely even half fill it. Any residual value that comes to the city from building such an arena kinda depends on people showing up to watch the games. That isn't happening, and quite frankly, I doubt it ever will. The Magic have been in Orlando since 1989 - yet their 2006-07 attendance record was just slightly higher than it was in 1997-98! They've had 20 years to build a following in this town, and simply haven't done it. So - let's spend $400M on them. It boggles the mind.

As far as where the money goes - my ultimate issue is that the hotel tax was supposed to go to support tourism in Central Florida - that's why the tax was implemented, and its something we desperately need right now. Those funds never should have been diverted in the first place. Under normal circumstances, I wouldn't even be okay with the money being diverted to public services (that's where my property taxes are supposed to be spent). However, thse aren't normal circumstances and if it has to be a judgement call between a new arena and money to keep teachers, firefighters and police officers employed - well, one would think the answer would be obvious.

Pete

 

[kpadalik]

I know why I'm up at this time of night - I'm at work, but Pete what are you doing up at 3 am?

 

[Launchpad11B]

I know why I'm up at this time of night - I'm at work, but Pete what are you doing up at 3 am?

Yeah Pete. Politics will drive you nuts! Go get some sleep. We need you fresh and full of pep for the cruise!

 

[Stroller Boy]

Orlando Magic games are by no stretch of the imagination "full" (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ba...izzlies-attendance-woes-mirror?urn=nba,122913)

As I mentioned on previous shows, not even the locals care about the Magic. This is a point that should not be overlooked - THEY CAN'T FILL THE STADIUM - they can barely even half fill it. Any residual value that comes to the city from building such an arena kinda depends on people showing up to watch the games. That isn't happening, and quite frankly, I doubt it ever will. The Magic have been in Orlando since 1989 - yet their 2006-07 attendance record was just slightly higher than it was in 1997-98! They've had 20 years to build a following in this town, and simply haven't done it. So - let's spend $400M on them. It boggles the mind.

As far as where the money goes - my ultimate issue is that the hotel tax was supposed to go to support tourism in Central Florida - that's why the tax was implemented, and its something we desperately need right now. Those funds never should have been diverted in the first place. Under normal circumstances, I wouldn't even be okay with the money being diverted to public services (that's where my property taxes are supposed to be spent). However, thse aren't normal circumstances and if it has to be a judgement call between a new arena and money to keep teachers, firefighters and police officers employed - well, one would think the answer would be obvious.

Pete

You're definitely right, if the dollars were earmarked for tourism, then it should be spent there...perhaps they are taking their advice from those who've spent our social security money!

I'm not sure how the NBA works it, but typically selling out the area doesn't necessarily impact the viability of the franchise and they get a ton of revenue from shirt, hat, and other merchandise sales. Or as with MLB the small market franchises get money from those that overspend (Yankees, Red Sox, etc.). Although, this actually supports your point that the rich get richer in that they get their merchandise/profit sharing revenue as well as public investment (best of both worlds). My only point in that was wondering what their ROI plan was in spending the dollars there. I gotta believe (I'm an optimist) that they felt like this would give them the biggest bang for their buck, yes/no? Or was this another Chicago deal?

Anyhoo, yeah, stop replying at 3am! Those of us who aren't going on that cruise need to hear a well rested Pete report from the ship!

I tell ya, I hate even talking politics anymore...so frustrating.... Another reason why I try to emerge myself in all that is Disney. As long as they keep creating the types of experieces I've had down there, they can pay Eiger a hundred gajillion dollars for all I care! LOL

 

[doconeill]

Pete, even I'll give you a free pass on ranting about this one...

 

[dxwwf3]

Orlando Magic games are by no stretch of the imagination "full" (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ba...izzlies-attendance-woes-mirror?urn=nba,122913)

As I mentioned on previous shows, not even the locals care about the Magic. This is a point that should not be overlooked - THEY CAN'T FILL THE STADIUM - they can barely even half fill it. Any residual value that comes to the city from building such an arena kinda depends on people showing up to watch the games. That isn't happening, and quite frankly, I doubt it ever will. The Magic have been in Orlando since 1989 - yet their 2006-07 attendance record was just slightly higher than it was in 1997-98! They've had 20 years to build a following in this town, and simply haven't done it. So - let's spend $400M on them. It boggles the mind.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/attendance?sort=home_pct&year=2009&seasonType=2

Orlando is in the top half of the league in Attendance Percentage. Selling 95.8% of the tickets isn't bad and is clearly selling more than half of capacity. And check the numbers at the end of the season. Having a winning team brings people out of the woodwork every time. And this year is the best team since 1996. And even last season they were very high in NBA attendance percentage when it was all said and done:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/attendance?sort=home_pct&year=2008&seasonType=2

Also about NBA games, you will tend to see plenty of empty seats for certain games where the tickets were actually paid for. With 41 home games a year, season ticket holders might not be able to make it every night. Also a lot of the high priced tickets are used in corporate situations where they might not even be intended for use every night. This type of disposable income is something that companies won't have in the future and the NBA might have to change in bit. I'm sure the sky boxes in the new arena won't have any trouble selling early on because it is a new arena and because the team in a championship contender.

The bottom line is that there is certainly a valid opinion to be had about not wanting this money spent for a new basketball arena. But the team does have a strong local fanbase and that will only grow as the wins continue to pile up. Two of the last three home games were sell outs against Miami and Atlanta with attendance of 17,461. Here are the links for proof:

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/boxscore;_ylt=AuHwMZQomQQeKzp2Szz_fjCQvLYF?gid=2009010219

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/boxscore;_ylt=Aov_ognpjymtHHVSRnQdBeSQvLYF?gid=2009010919

I have posted quite a bit of opinion on here, but I also wanted to make sure and provide some facts as well.

FINALLY, yes it is terrible that cutbacks on essentials could happen in Orlando. It won't happen, but it would be nice if Magic ownership stepped in and tried to help out in that respect. Police, fire departments, and schools should not suffer for these venues to come to fruition. Cutbacks should happen with the venues first. BUT, I do feel necessary to defend attendance at the games when they are putting nearly 96% of butts in the seats.

 

[lugnut33]

Not defending it or anything, but also want to point out that there a bunch of happy businesses around the new arena to be built.

 

[Disneybridein2k3]

First, it blows my mind that as pissed off as Pete is about what Mayor Rich Crotty et al has done here that people come on these particular boards and try to counter him.

Also about NBA games, you will tend to see plenty of empty seats for certain games where the tickets were actually paid for. With 41 home games a year, season ticket holders might not be able to make it every night. Also a lot of the high priced tickets are used in corporate situations where they might not even be intended for use every night. This type of disposable income is something that companies won't have in the future and the NBA might have to change in bit. I'm sure the sky boxes in the new arena won't have any trouble selling early on because it is a new arena and because the team in a championship contender.

That being said, I think dxwwf3 was trying to make a point in the NBA's defense but (at least for me) it ended up sounding like a point for Pete's side. If there are so many corporations and people with so much disposable income that they can afford to buy tickets and not even show up, why do they need the money from the tourism's pockets for the stadium? Why can't they go to their corporate sponsors like Disney does? Obviously they have people a lot smarter than me running their circus so maybe this wouldn't work but it seems like they didn't have to take money where it wasn't allocated in the first place and put it in the pockets of people rich enough to buy seats and not show up.

 

[dpuck1998]

You know what's really killing me right now - is that the principle's from 5 Orange County schools went to Tallahassee yesterday -hat in hand - begging for them to make concessions in what they cut from the school budget. Really - what does it say about our leaders as human beings, let alone our society at large when a BASKETBALL ARENA is more important than providing a decent education for our children. In an ideal world, the choice would not have to be made, but this isn't an ideal world.

Teachers have a hard enough job - now they literally have to take lamps off thier desks (to save energy) and that's if their lucky enough to not get laid off all together (which is also happening). But a bunch of multi-millionaires that work for a privately owned firm will have a cushy new arena to run around in. Trust me, I'm not a socialist by any stretch of the imagination here - but what's right is right - and this is just plain wrong.

I'm really upset about this. Like "beside myself" upset.

Pete

I'm in this boat myself right now Pete. I work for a school and I'm in charge of technology (but I don't fix copiers). We are in the process of literally begging for money to upgrade out computers and infrastructure. Two years ago they built an 10 million dollar football stadium for our High School and we are limping along with 4-10 year old computers and a network infrastructure that is 10 years old. We have so many "duct tape" fixes, equipment that can't even be replaced anymore, and computers that kids use every day that are still running windows 98 or even a few windows 95 machines. I'm doing everything I can to get this network upgraded and each time I go to them I have to find a way to cut more and more from the price. I keep preaching that if we buy junk it will have to be replaced twice as fast. Last time I put in a network I did it right and it last 10 years....if I do it half *** then it won't last 5! Ugh!! Stop spending money for my accountant to have an iPhone and give us some money (don't get me started on the waste I see everyday at schools!)

the end

 

[Launchpad11B]

I'm in this boat myself right now Pete. I work for a school and I'm in charge of technology (but I don't fix copiers). We are in the process of literally begging for money to upgrade out computers and infrastructure. Two years ago they built an 10 million dollar football stadium for our High School and we are limping along with 4-10 year old computers and a network infrastructure that is 10 years old. We have so many "duct tape" fixes, equipment that can't even be replaced anymore, and computers that kids use every day that are still running windows 98 or even a few windows 95 machines. I'm doing everything I can to get this network upgraded and each time I go to them I have to find a way to cut more and more from the price. I keep preaching that if we buy junk it will have to be replaced twice as fast. Last time I put in a network I did it right and it last 10 years....if I do it half *** then it won't last 5! Ugh!! Stop spending money for my accountant to have an iPhone and give us some money (don't get me started on the waste I see everyday at schools!)

the end

Breathe Don, breathe. Think about the cruise.

 

[dxwwf3]

First, it blows my mind that as pissed off as Pete is about what Mayor Rich Crotty et al has done here that people come on these particular boards and try to counter him.

Wow. Read what you said again.

I'm not trying to engage Pete in this discussion, but when someone on a blog most people don't take all that seriously (Ball Don't Lie) puts out something as fact, when he obviously didn't do actual research, I'm going to try and set things right for people reading the topic. Pete would have no way of knowing what Ball Don't Lie really is and that's the reason I posted.

That being said, I think dxwwf3 was trying to make a point in the NBA's defense but (at least for me) it ended up sounding like a point for Pete's side. If there are so many corporations and people with so much disposable income that they can afford to buy tickets and not even show up, why do they need the money from the tourism's pockets for the stadium? Why can't they go to their corporate sponsors like Disney does? Obviously they have people a lot smarter than me running their circus so maybe this wouldn't work but it seems like they didn't have to take money where it wasn't allocated in the first place and put it in the pockets of people rich enough to buy seats and not show up.

Good points. There will have to be some sort of change league wide. And it might even cause changes among all professional sports. I'm not trying to say the way things are done with sports stadiums is the best way to do it. But the Magic's fanbase is stronger than people give it credit and I expect locals who don't follow the team to start noticing this more in the upcoming weeks. As I said before, winnings brings the people out and that is true for every sports team.

I think a lot of this is economy based and not interest based. Because season tickets are usually discounted a bit and they get first chance at playoff tickets, it isn't QUITE as bad as it sounds, but yes you are right.

 

[Stroller Boy]

I'm in this boat myself right now Pete. I work for a school and I'm in charge of technology (but I don't fix copiers). We are in the process of literally begging for money to upgrade out computers and infrastructure. Two years ago they built an 10 million dollar football stadium for our High School and we are limping along with 4-10 year old computers and a network infrastructure that is 10 years old. We have so many "duct tape" fixes, equipment that can't even be replaced anymore, and computers that kids use every day that are still running windows 98 or even a few windows 95 machines. I'm doing everything I can to get this network upgraded and each time I go to them I have to find a way to cut more and more from the price. I keep preaching that if we buy junk it will have to be replaced twice as fast. Last time I put in a network I did it right and it last 10 years....if I do it half *** then it won't last 5! Ugh!! Stop spending money for my accountant to have an iPhone and give us some money (don't get me started on the waste I see everyday at schools!)

the end

Don't feel bad Dpuck, I work for a major Pharma and we're not too far ahead of you on the OS-front! LOL

 

[Stroller Boy]

Not to keep beating the horse to a pulp here, but it got me to wondering what Pete might have used those dollars set aside for tourism on? Totally non-inflamatory, I'm REALLY interested! Pete really does seem to have a good pulse on the tourism thing in FL. Hopefully that's not what he's thinking about at 3am though....

 

[Disneybridein2k3]

Wow. Read what you said again.



... but yes you are right.

I wasn't pointing you out in particular for taking Pete for a walk - actually, it was everyone who posted against him. My apologies, you were just the most recent one. Pete was just so obviosly upset (the title of his post IS Apoplectic, after all) and it just blew me away knowing Pete and his rants that as incited as he is over this topic that fuel would be added to the fire. In any case, Pete is also an intelligent man and I'm sure he didn't have your info. Nonetheless, I think his point was the hotel tax to support tourism is being spent instead on the Magic regardless of how well the team is doing.
As for being right, well, there is a first time for everything.

 

[dxwwf3]

In any case, Pete is also an intelligent man and I'm sure he didn't have your info.

Which is why it was brought up

Nonetheless, I think his point was the hotel tax to support tourism is being spent instead on the Magic regardless of how well the team is doing.

THAT point is not trying to be opposed by myself. I WILL oppose the thought that the Magic are completely useless and that nobody cares about them in Central Florida or around the country.

 

[WebmasterPete]

Well, first of all I never said that 'nobody cares about them', I'm aware they have a fan base - it's just not a very large fan base, especially as compared to sports franchises in other cities. As I mentioned on the show, Orlando is a town of transplants - transplants who still maintain strong loyalty to their hometown teams, and generally view the Magic with indifference. As far as the Magic being 'useless', in terms of their value to tourism - they are useless, and that was the point of my argument from the beginning. The site and the show are about ORLANDO TOURISM and my issue with the Magic is ONLY that money originally earmarked for tourism is being spent to build them an arena. They do not draw tourist traffic into Orlando and as such, where tourism is concerned - THEY ARE USELESS.

As for your contention that they have a strong local fan base - I beg to differ. The fans they have may be passionate, but the team is by no means a 'staple' of civic life in Orlando. Back in 2005 when the entire issue about whether or not to spend tourist tax dollars on a new arena was still being argued, an outside agency conducted a survey to determine local interest in the franchise. The numbers are telling: http://www.loyalty-cdci.com/magic_results.html This is not a team that locals are going to go to the mat for. If they decided to leave town, I don't think you'd see too much outcry from the vast majority of residents in the area.

As for StrollerBoys question about where I think the money would be better spent: given the current state of the economy, I would think the best use of it would be in promotional venues - use the money to better advertise Orlando in key markets - including Europe and Latin America. In short - use it to get more people into town. Then there is local infrastructure - using the money to expand and build roadways that carry large amounts of tourist traffic (like I-4). I would even support the idea of using the money to further offset the cost of the Light Rail system they are hoping to build. The county has approved it, the Feds are ready to pony up cash to help pay for it - it's the state legislature standing in the way right now. Had money from the tourism tax been directed to that project instead (which would have made more sense), it probably would be close to complete by now, insteand of languishing in limbo for years.

In short - I have no problem with the Magic having a new arena - I could care less, I have a problem with using tax dollars in general, and tourist tax dollars in specific to do it.