Anyone seen this thread about Crash & Brokeback?

Discussion in 'Gay and Lesbian at Disney' started by SeattleRedBear, Mar 7, 2006.

  1. SeattleRedBear

    SeattleRedBear Mouseketeer<br><font color=red>An old floorboard c

    Jul 9, 2004
    Man, just finished reading this and I'm ready to scream GET OVER IT! IT'S A FREAKIN' MOVIE!!!

    Please, anyone, just shoot me if I ever run on for 33 lines without taking a breath.

    Venting on the other thread would be non-productive and I'm about to explode. :furious: Rick, feel free to delete if not appropriate. Thanks all!
  2. Ronda93

    Ronda93 DIS Veteran

    Oct 6, 2000
    Yeah, spoon seems a little manic in her writing. I agree it's a movie. Move on. Speaking of odd writing styles, I haven't seen mrFDNY lately.
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  4. JennyMominRI

    JennyMominRI <font color=red>Live from Red Sox Nation<br><font

    Jan 13, 2005
    I'm really sorry about some of the stuff getting said over there.
  5. Diva of Dragons

    Diva of Dragons <font color=brown>Tiger here!!<br><font color=lime

    Oct 5, 2000
    Yikes! Her brain must be seriously lacking oxygen! Obviously, she never stops to take a breath! :sad2:
  6. Kevin&Randall

    Kevin&Randall Mouseketeer

    Jan 30, 2005

    I have a headache and only got through about 3 pages of that thread. I have never gone into the "community" boards, and thinking I won't again any time soon. I'm perfectly happy with this community.


  7. Dakota_Lynn

    Dakota_Lynn DIS Veteran

    Nov 18, 2003
    That Chattyaholic pissed me off with her comments our immoral "lifestyle." Why get on a public message board where she knows there are many gay and lesbian people and spew out such garbage? Fine, she disapproves of us. I don't really care. But to say we lack morals and values? :rolleyes: On a brighter note, however, there really are a lot of straight people taking up for us these days and that is just plain wonderful! :love: It does my heart good to see it. Especially since my 14 year old daughter is also a lesbian. I really want the world to be a better and kinder place for her. When people like Chattyaholic make such comments, it really upsets me. A year ago I was able to let it roll off me more than I can now knowing that my gay daughter could have read that nonsense. :(
  8. majortom

    majortom Mouseketeer

    Mar 1, 2006
    Someone in that thread includes this quote:

    from Roger Ebert's article and argues that Ebert is biased against Brokeback Mountain because:

    I found both comments to be interesting. I had very mixed feelings about this year's Best Picture nominees in that I wanted Brokeback Mountain for political reasons, while I actually felt that Crash was a better film. Ebert in his article states that it is his opinion the Crash was a better film and many of those arguing for Brokeback stated that anyone that did not agree with their opinion was a homophobe. These are both true statements. Ebert did not say that everyone that voted for Brokeback Mountain was doing so for political reasons, just that [many] of those attacking Crash were doing so for that reason.

    While I often disagree with Roger Ebert, I have to say that I know him not to be a homophobe. I grew up in Chicagoland and am active in Mac OS X community there, as is Mr. Ebert. I have met him at many events and have many friends that are friends of his (I would not say that we are friends, just acquaintances). From statements he has made in private and from his actions (both public and private), I can certainly defend him against that charge.

    Many straight male friends of mine have asked me if they should see Brokeback Mountain. My response has been, that if you want to go for political reasons, great, you should go. If you want to see a beautiful film with good acting, you should go. If you loved Bridges of Madison County you will like this film. I you hated it and want to go to be entertained, you probably will not like it.

    I have seen Crash five times and each time I find something new. I have seen Brokeback Mountain twice and I did not find much new in it.

    As much as I liked it, and as much as it is a welcome change from portrayals of Gay men as either serial killers, AIDS victims or comic relief, it is still a tragedy about how bad life was/is for some gay men and I cannot help but think that it is still overall not the film I want as my representative.

    I think that Kiss, Kiss, Bang, Bang (a great film that you should all go see), has a better portrayal of a gay man and is closer to what I want in a film with gay characters - a movie where being gay is just like having black hair (i.e. a plot detail) not the main focus of the film.

  9. SunFloridaDisney

    SunFloridaDisney 3 of my favorite things<br><font color=red>I'll pr

    Jul 27, 2004
    Sorry for your negative experience. We aren't all like that, many of us on the CB are quite friendly, accepting, and just like to have a good time. :wave2:

    Just like in 'real life' there are always some jerks who have to display their ignorance, small-mindedness and critical attitudes. :guilty:
  10. RickinNYC

    RickinNYC DIS Veteran

    Apr 22, 2003
    Dakota LYnn, EXCELLENT post!

    Randall, you definitley should go to the Community Board and check it out. There are hundreds of great DIS'ers there. And whenever there are any anti-gay sentiments, the CSP come out in droves! They make us look like wusses by comparison! :rotfl:

    SeattleRed, why would I delete your post? I think you should post your rear end off on that thread.

    In fact, to ALL of you, gay or straight. Go that thread and post your head off! People need to hear from all of us, not just a couple of us.
  11. curiouser

    curiouser Keep believing, keep pretending...

    Jul 27, 2005
    wow, I'm glad that thread just ruined the movie for me :guilty:

    Sounds like its time to call AT&T to reach out and slap someone...
  12. SeattleRedBear

    SeattleRedBear Mouseketeer<br><font color=red>An old floorboard c

    Jul 9, 2004
    I think it's because I assume most people are reasonable and difference of opinion can be identified (and if possible resolved) through civil discourse. Someone like a certain poster on that thread (i really like that dakota) is just so off my radar that when faced with someone like that, I get this "dear-in-the-headlight" thing going on (literally, DH has broken the trance a couple times when I've been faced with unreasonable people in surreal situations and just stood there stunned that someone could say that). It's probably a good thing I'm in academia :rolleyes1
  13. mickeyfan2

    mickeyfan2 DIS Veteran

    May 21, 2004
    We aren't all bad. ;) Give us another try. I too found "Sugar" way over the top. Now a gay pimp would really put her over the top!!!!! :lmao:
  14. donald...really

    donald...really <font color=cc0099>Gotta watch out for closed mind

    Jul 12, 2004
    I started to read that thread but only read a few posts before I quit. I don't really want to go there. So, sorry if this has already been posted and discussed.

    The idea of a Best Picture really is subjective. And I agree it's just a movie. But the Brokeback loss really did bother me, mostly because I, as well as other people, see it as hollywoods homophobia rearing its ugly head. It's difficult for me to not come to that conclusion when you have quotes from Academy members like this out there:

    Academy of Motion Picture Arts & Sciences member who requested anonymity, when asked at the big shoo if she had voted for or against the defeated Brokeback Mountain: "[Several Academy members] didn't see it. We won't vote for a movie like that."

    Plus articles like this (Like I said, better picture is subjective, but the facts stated below are interesting):

    The Brokeback Mountain Oscar Snub
    by Michael Jensen, March 7, 2006

    Sunday night, Hollywood spent over three hours congratulating itself for its tolerance and progressiveness. But when it came to awarding the Best Picture, Hollywood's cowardly actions proved louder than its pretty words.

    Two days after Crash's history-making upset over Brokeback, a debate rages over why the upset happened. Was it homophobia? Was Crash simply a better movie? Did the far right's attack on Hollywood's morals frighten the voters? Or did Brokeback simply peak too soon?

    First, the facts.

    During the awards' season leading up to Sunday night's Oscars, Brokeback Mountain became the most honored movie in cinematic history. It had more Best Picture and Director wins than previous Oscar winners Schindler's List and Titanic combined. Just to name a few, Brokeback won various awards at the Golden Globes, the BAFTA's, Venice Film Festival, NY Film Critic's Circle, LA Film Critics, National Board of Review, and the Independent Spirit Awards.

    Meanwhile, of the major awards, Crash managed to win only the SAG Award (for its ensemble cast), the Chicago Critics award, and an Image Award. And Crash won the Chicago honor mostly because Chicago-area film critic Roger Ebert relentlessly pushed it. Even then, Brokeback was the runner-up. How did Crash fare in all of the awards Brokeback won? It mostly didn't, rarely even showing up as a nominee. In fact, before the SAG awards, Crash barely merited mention as an Oscar contender.

    Before Sunday night's upset, no film that had won the Writer's Guild, Director's Guild, and Producer's Guild awards did not go on to win the Academy Award for Best Picture. Additionally, the film with the most total Oscar nominations almost always wins the top prize; only four times in the past twenty-five years has the Best Picture winner not also been the film with the most nominations. This year Brokeback had the most nominations

    Along with all these awards, Brokeback had also won the Golden Globe, all but assuring that it would win at the Oscars too. Only once, in 1973, did a film not even nominated for the Golden Globe's Best Picture go on to win the Academy Award (that movie was The Sting, and it wasn't nominated because of a mix-up at the Golden Globes). Crash did not receive a Golden Globe nomination.

    Like most eventual Best Picture winners, Brokeback Mountain was by far the highest grossing film of the five nominees. It has earned $120 million worldwide, while Crash has taken in less than half that. Box-office performance has always been a factor in how the Academy votes.

    One other fact: The Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences is a conservative institution. It is not necessarily conservative in the political or religious sense of the word, but rather in that its members are firm believers in tradition and precedence. By every measure of previous Oscar winners, Brokeback should have been the movie announced by Jack Nicholson. Since it wasn't, there must be a very compelling reason for Crash to have won instead.

    Was it Crash's critical acclaim? To be fair, Crash did come out quite some
    time ago and it is common knowledge that Oscar favors, or at least remembers, movies released late in the year. Was it possible that Crash's earlier critical acclaim had been overlooked by virtually every others arts organization that dispenses awards? Perhaps once Academy voters were reminded of Crash's critical acclaim, they felt compelled to give it the Best Picture.

    Turns out that can't be the case. Here again, Brokeback was clearly the frontrunner. Every year, both Premiere Magazine and Entertainment Weekly rank the year's movies according to the reviews they received. Brokeback came in first on both lists. Three other Best Picture nominees—Good Night, and Good Luck, Capote, and Munich —also placed in the Top Ten on both lists. Meanwhile, Crash ranked number thirty-six on Premiere's list, and down in the fifties on EW's. A half-dozen critics even gave it outright pans, saying it was a movie to be avoided.

    Not exactly a critical darling, eh?

    That means that in order for the Academy voters to have chosen Crash over Brokeback, they had to overlook the fact that Brokeback was the favorite by almost every measure the Academy has used for seventy eight years. And they had to be willing to overturn decades of Academy tradition as well. Let's be clear about something else: this disregard for tradition and precedence didn't happen because of a changing of the guard. It's not a case of new, fresh blood forcing the Academy to change their old, tired ways. Indeed, it is the old guard that upended their traditions in order to propel Crash past Brokeback.

    Nor is this a discussion about the merits of Brokeback Mountain versus Crash. Art is subjective, and a Crash fan's opinion is every bit as valid as someone who loved Brokeback. What isn't subjective are the facts stated above.

    The question remaining then is why did they Academy pass over Brokeback for Crash? Given the facts, there seems to be only one answer: good old-fashioned homophobia, or at least Hollywood 's fear of being perceived by Middle America as too tolerant of gay people, which is another kind of homophobia. Or perhaps it was some combination of the two things. But nothing else seems to fit the facts.

    If rank homophobia was the reason, it seems Tony Curtis apparently spoke for many voters when he said he had no intention of seeing the movie and that it offered nothing “unique.” Since he hadn't seen it, it's hard to know on what basis Mr. Curtis made his claim. But clearly many Academy voters did not see anything particularly unique about it either.

    Everyone watching knew this was a chance for the Academy to take a stand on what is arguably one of the most controversial issues of our time. Battles are being fought at ballot boxes, in courtrooms, schools and homes all around the country. Sunday night offered a chance for Hollywood to weigh in with their support.

    Up until Jack Nicholson opened that envelope virtually everyone -- even the Las Vegas odds-makers, felt it a near certainty Hollywood would do just that.

    But at the last second, the Oscar voters blinked. Or perhaps like a white person publicly professing their support for a black candidate, only to then vote for their white opponent in the privacy of the voting booth, Academy voters never intended to vote for Brokeback.

    Some Crash supporters have argued the Academy had to choose between honoring two very worthwhile movies, one confronting racism, one homophobia, both subjects the Oscars have overlooked in the past. And while it was a difficult choice, they argue, it was a fair decision.

    Hogwash. Hollywood has already honored numerous movies that confront racism. In the Heat of the Night won back in 1967, nearly forty years ago.
    Schindler's List won in 1993. Other previous winners depicting racism have included Gandhi, Driving Miss Daisy, and Westside Story. And Halle Berry's Best Actress win was supposed to be the final nail in Hollywood's racist past. The point isn't to argue that racism is no longer worthy subject-matter, only that it is not groundbreaking, especially not nearly enough to overcome Brokeback's reasons for winning.

    Indeed, a gay story, much less a love story, has never even been in serious contention for an Oscar. Hell, there hasn't even been a mainstream movie about a gay love story. Given just how groundbreaking Brokeback is, its being passed over for Crash -- a movie few cared about until six weeks ago -- only heightens the fact that homophobia is one of the obvious reasons for
    the Academy having done so.

    Professional awards analyst Tom O'Neil thought he saw something unusual brewing in Hollywood over the past several weeks. “Something weird is going on among Oscar Voters,” O'Neil wrote in The Envelope, an online site run by the Los Angeles Times. "Crash and Good Night, and Good Luck have their passionate supporters who gush their honest love of those best-picture nominees, but most non-Brokeback votes I hear from Oscar voters are really anti-Brokeback." And that translates to anti-gay.

    Kenneth Turan, also of the Los Angeles Times, sees something similar in the aftermath of Crash's upset. “So for people who were discomfited by Brokeback Mountain but wanted to be able to look themselves in the mirror and feel like they were good, productive liberals, Crash provided the perfect safe harbor.”

    In retrospect, it's hard not to feel a little stupid for hoping that Brokeback would emerge victorious. America truly seemed to be changing on the issue of homosexuality. For every joke that ridiculed the “gay cowboy” movie, there was a joke mocking the guys who wouldn't see it. Only things haven't progressed as much as thought.

    Some argue Hollywood can't be antigay since the top acting prize went to Philip Seymour Hoffman in Capote. But I put that right up there with Tom Hanks' wins for Philadelphia (as a dying gay man) and William Hurts' win for Kiss of the Spiderwoman (arguably not even gay, since Hurt's character says he wants to be a woman). This is not meant to take anything away fromHoffman, but nonetheless it sure appears that Hollywood, like America, has a much easier time accepting gays when they confirm all their stereotypes of effete, lisping, asexual men. But a movie about two masculine guys in love? That's apparently a different story.

    Some might even argue that not giving Hoffman the Oscar would have been a travesty, given that he had won virtually every other Best Actor award leading up to the Oscars. How could the award be denied to the man who was so clearly the frontrunner?

    But that certainly didn't stop Academy voters when it came to selecting the Best Picture.

    There is a second, more nuanced explanation for the Brokeback snub. As the presenters made clear during the telecast, Hollywood is feeling defensive about declining box-office revenue. And since the nominations were announced in January, much has been made about Hollywood supposedly being “out of touch” with mainstream America. Indeed, the day of the Oscars, CNN ran a piece called “Out of Touch” wherein a reporter visited a small town in rural America to ask if anyone had seen, or would see, Brokeback. The answer for most, of course, was an indignant, “No!”

    Folks in Hollywood may fear the competition presented by today's varied entertainment choices. Perhaps they were feeling uncomfortable with being seen as so different from the heartland. Or maybe it is the confluence of the two. Whichever the reason, it was Brokeback and the gay community they sacrificed to “save” themselves.

    No doubt, had Brokeback won, the media would be reporting that Hollywood had proven they were wildly out of touch. Now the story is that even Hollywood isn't crazy enough to give an Oscar to “that” movie. For gay men, that makes us damned if we'd won and damned that we didn't.

    What's so disappointing about this for so many gay men is that Brokeback was our movie. For years, we've been presented as prancing, mincing stereotypes, pathological killers, or suicidal depressives. Mel Gibson even threw us out of a tower in Braveheart. But with Brokeback, we had finally been given a movie that reflected the real experience and emotions of many of our lives, even if those reflections weren't happy. And we were even led to believe that our movie had crossed over and would be honored as Best Picture.

    In retrospect, it's arguable that winning final prize was never really an option, at least not at this time and place in history.

    But the story isn't likely to end here. Like the Democrats trying to negotiate the tricky waters of gay rights, Hollywood 's snub of Brokeback is likely to please no one. Fundamentalist Christians are unlikely to suddenly decide Hollywood does share their values. And by selecting Crash, Hollywood alienated legions of fair-minded Americans who know a cop-out when they see it.
  15. Tony-NJ

    Tony-NJ <font color=green>Ready for <font color=deeppink>S

    Aug 21, 1999
    OMG I just sat here and went thru 4 pages of that thread. I had to move away. Rick's right about the CSP. And about any gay topic that comes up on the cB - there are folks there that seem they can do no wrong and we should burn in hell. Sad....
  16. SeattleRedBear

    SeattleRedBear Mouseketeer<br><font color=red>An old floorboard c

    Jul 9, 2004
    This is a GREAT article! Yes, the value judgement itself is subjective but the facts are that with all those awards, there is no doubt that it was the voters of the Academy not giving the movie a fair shake!
  17. minniedisney1

    minniedisney1 Mouseketeer

    Jun 26, 2005
    :mad: I tried to read some of that thread, but could not get thru Spoons post. Yikes!!! Imagine having to listen :listen: to that in person. UGH!!!

    Please don't be put off by the CB. We are not all bad, we just have a few rotten apples. Unfortunately, they are the ones that leave a lasting impression.

    I do not agree with what I read on that thread & am sorry that crap is going on over there. :sad2:
  18. nordkin

    nordkin DIS Veteran

    Apr 22, 2005
    I worked my way through that thread and was delighted to see the number of CSP supporting us. When I first started reading the thread I began to get angry and then remembered a saying my father used to always use which is "I don't discuss things with people more ignorant and closed minded than myself because I can't learn anything from them." He was one of those CSP that worked for our rights and was totally accepting of his two gay children.

    I appreciate that there is a forum to discuss things on these boards and I am grateful their are people chiming in to show support for us.
  19. Saxton

    Saxton DIS Veteran

    Sep 23, 2004
    I read the thread while I was at work today and I normally try not to do that while I'm at work ... but it was like a car wreck ... I didn't want to look but I couldn't stop myself! On the plus side it showed once again how many CSPs there are - thank you all!! And that makes the very few who posted negative comments in the minority .... wow, ignorant people are now a minority ... I wonder if they'll soon start to see things through our eyes. ;) No, probably not!
  20. majortom

    majortom Mouseketeer

    Mar 1, 2006
    I am curious, did you see all five nominees? Did you actually feel that Brokeback Mountain was the best of them? I saw all five. I think that Brokeback Mountain was an important film, but I do not think it was better than Crash.

  21. LukenDC

    LukenDC DIS Veteran

    Dec 7, 2004
    I know that there is discrimination against gay and lesbian people. It still hurts, though, to read comments from people who believe that we are innately immoral and that we lack value to society.

    It's at moments like this when I feel gay pride. Despite all of the hate and persecution over the centuries, gays and lesbians have continued to love and contribute to civilization.

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