Any thoughts on point charts for Lakeshore Lodge

[disneylandtour]

I feel like the only way Villains Land is never built at this point is if this country is thrown into another great recession like 08. God forbid that ever happen! Disney knows they have to deliver on this stuff after the disappointments of the stuff they built at EPCOT and Tiana's.

I'm already worried. Here's one scenario. Maybe look at it this way. New tariffs on steel go up to the point where both Cars and Villains are significantly over budget before construction begins. Cars land is clearly going to be built. But maybe Cars land cannibalizes part of the Villains land budget just so it can be finished. For Villains land (and their coaster) add in Vekoma (coaster company Disney uses) is in the Netherlands (at the moment, that could be a 50% tariff on Aug 1). Or Intamin (another coaster company Disney uses) is in Lichtenstein (I believe this is a 37% tariff). At the moment. Most of the US coaster manufacturers focus on wood coasters. From what I can tell, it's not going to be a massive recession that derails Villains land, if it happens (and that's an if) it'll be a combination of budget issues, in part relating to steel costs and overseas design companies combined with lower than expected revenue at the resort (which we're already seeing) over the next three or four years.

 

[disneylandtour]

That may be the plan, Have something to sell for 5 years in MK

I'm pretty sure the initial plan was to have LSL and a line of new areas open around the same time. The problem, as always, is that DVC projects get prioritized and built first. DVCs have no income pretty much until their built--or near built. But the parks still have income even if new projects are delayed. At the moment, the Cars land project (which is just starting) is already 9 or 10 months behind the initial schedule. So LSL is clearly going to be finished before the new attractions that were supposed to support sales at LSL.

 

[Mouseforward]

that could be a 50% tariff on Aug 1

And then 0% on Aug 2nd

 

[disneylandtour]

And then 0% on Aug 2nd

Perhaps, true. But also this makes project budget planning an absolutely nightmare because it's impossible to plan for large cost items if the tariffs keep changing.

 

[Mouseforward]

Perhaps, true. But also this makes project budget planning an absolutely nightmare because it's impossible to plan for large cost items if the tariffs keep changing.

I think you may be overestimating the effect of one land on sales of DVC. MK is the big draw now and will be the big draw in the future. AK sold out when AK Park was a 4 hour park.

 

[disneylandtour]

I think you may be overestimating the effect of one land on sales of DVC. MK is the big draw now and will be the big draw in the future. AK sold out when AK Park was a 4 hour park.

Perhaps. I do think the plan was to use both Cars and Villains as the interest drivers for LSL. And I see that plan moving slower than expected and also facing meaningful financial challenges. I also see Poly, with the new tower points, doing OK but not exactly doing blockbuster business as an MK resort trying to sell contracts with the current MK. Also when AKV opened there were (a) very few park adjacent DVC properties (BWV, BCV, and BRV), there wasn't yet an over saturation of DVC options on property, and (c) I really think that the allure of waking up to animals outside your window at AKV as a unique experience helped sales. But we'll see how this plays out. I'm just saying that, as opposed to a year ago, when all this was announced, there are different economic stressors on the projects now. And I don't like how those forces may change plans here.

 

[muppets3d]

I'm already worried. Here's one scenario. Maybe look at it this way. New tariffs on steel go up to the point where both Cars and Villains are significantly over budget before construction begins. Cars land is clearly going to be built. But maybe Cars land cannibalizes part of the Villains land budget just so it can be finished. For Villains land (and their coaster) add in Vekoma (coaster company Disney uses) is in the Netherlands (at the moment, that could be a 50% tariff on Aug 1). Or Intamin (another coaster company Disney uses) is in Lichtenstein (I believe this is a 37% tariff). At the moment. Most of the US coaster manufacturers focus on wood coasters. From what I can tell, it's not going to be a massive recession that derails Villains land, if it happens (and that's an if) it'll be a combination of budget issues, in part relating to steel costs and overseas design companies combined with lower than expected revenue at the resort (which we're already seeing) over the next three or four years.

If Disney under-delivers on these areas (Animal Kingdom, Studios and Magic Kingdom expansions) like they did EPCOT, a large swath of people will never forgive them, especially after they've already closed down beloved attractions. They have money for what they want to spend it on. Elio and Snow White together were nearly half a billion dollars.

 

[Brian Noble]

after the disappointments of the stuff they built at EPCOT and Tiana's.

You say this like it’s accepted fact. I’m not sure that’s warranted.

(That’s professor-speak for: “I think that’s BS.”)

 

[muppets3d]

You say this like it’s accepted fact. I’m not sure that’s warranted.

(That’s professor-speak for: “I think that’s BS.”)

nobody has done a scientific study on it that I’m aware of, but Tiana’s wait time is consistently below what I remember Splash’s was, the EPCOT additions aside from Guardians are under-utilized, and I haven’t watched or read a single review of any of these projects that praised them as better than what they replaced. I’m happy to be proven wrong.

 

[Brian Noble]

Of course you haven't, because praise doesn't get rage-clicks, and Tiana in particular is the source of plenty of (transparent and not-so-transparent) internet-rage. But it is very cool and hip to say that Everything Is Bad.

Just watch people get off the ride. It will tell you everything you need to know.

 

[thanxfornoticin]

Of course you haven't, because praise doesn't get rage-clicks, and Tiana in particular is the source of plenty of (transparent and not-so-transparent) internet-rage. But it is very cool and hip to say that Everything Is Bad.

Just watch people get off the ride. It will tell you everything you need to know.

Agreed. Tiana's is far from a disappointment! We loved the new music and theme. It was way overdue for the changes.

I'll admit that some of the EPCOT improvements have been a tad underwhelming, but not all are going to be homeruns. I hope rev 3 or 4 or 5 (whichever it is) of Test Track is really good!

 

[byurick]

We just spent a week last month hopping between Epcot and MK, I didn't hear any complaints from people waiting in lines for all these rides. Most were pretty excited to be there if you ask me.

 

[Mouseforward]

Of course you haven't, because praise doesn't get rage-clicks, and Tiana in particular is the source of plenty of (transparent and not-so-transparent) internet-rage. But it is very cool and hip to say that Everything Is Bad.

Just watch people get off the ride. It will tell you everything you need to know.

Not to mention the significant improvement in the overall exterior - its much more attractive and colorful.

The wait time average is running 4 min less than Splash Mountains average, but MK rides as a whole are showing 12% lower wait times due to park attendance this year so in comparison, Tiana's is in line with those numbers.

 

[Brian Noble]

I hope rev 3 or 4 or 5 (whichever it is) of Test Track is really good!

One of my coaster dork friends (mini-)reviewed it, and was pretty positive:

https://coasterbuzz.com/Forums/Topic/wdw-coronado-springs-73-7625#1000410

 

[kilik64]

Elio and Snow White together were nearly half a billion dollars.

And they both made zero net returns.

Adding/updating the parks is always going to produce some ROI.

 

[disneylandtour]

And they both made zero net returns.

Adding/updating the parks is always going to produce some ROI.

Let me introduce you to Rocket Rods--the Elio of Disneyland.

 

[HyperspaceMountainPilot]

Let me introduce you to Rocket Rods--the Elio of Disneyland.

I'm still sad that Rocket Rods and People Mover are gone. I remember crawling through that line with my friends, only to get on a ride that frankly, was really not any more fun that one it replaced. Sure, Rocket Rods had a little more velocity, but you couldn't see anything out of the rocket! Still it's better than the empty paths that have sat there for the last 20 years...

While I would agree that they spent a lot of money (and years of walls) at Epcot for a CommuniCore Hall and World Celebration type spaces, I think the actual Cosmic Rewind attraction is the best coaster Disney ever made (and wait times seem to back this up, despite it being a more intense ride), and even the people who have whined about almost everything in the past 5 years seem to be excited for Test Track. I don't have any sort of influencer operation, but I think the Tiana re-theme is an unequivocal upgrade from Splash Mountain (and I say this with a lot of happy nostalgia for SM, as someone who rode it a few times a year with my friends in my teens) if I never hear the "Burrow's Lament" again it will be too soon.

 

[DebbieB]

Interesting idea if they will make this a “moderate” DVC property. That could easily lead to a DVC property at Coronado.

I hope they have a good food and beverage set-up with late evening offerings. I hope it’s not like OKW with so little.

I’m torn on waiting for this property or adding on elsewhere now.

There was that discussion about Riviera when it was built on former CBR land. Didn’t happen. For what it costs, I would expect deluxe amenities. First one, private balcony vs walkways. Looking at the construction, they are building private balconies.

I would like to see a food court setup with that many rooms. Anything is better than Boardwalk’s lack of real quick service (my home resort).

 

[Sandisw]

I don't have too much of value to add, but I do have a few thoughts on the questions posed by @aka Charles

I think the hotel division was doing very well during the prior Reflections plan period-- I would be surprised if they chose to include many hotel rooms at the property now, with Disney routinely offering major discounts to fill their deluxe and moderate rooms. Aside from the period where it is the new-new thing (when Disney will own more than half of the total points to rent as hotel rooms anyway), I would expect LSL to be harder to fill than the resorts on the monorail loop and WL.

I'm always in favor of more variety, but most interested to see the mix Disney proposes. I believe there were actually more studios and fewer 1/2BD than most people expected at PolyTower. I think the membership has voted with their points that studios are the most popular room types for owners, so I would expect at least half the rooms to be studios or duos?

It's hard for me to imagine that if Disney opted not to have a club level (with insane point chart) for Poly Tower, that they would decide to put a Club level in at Lakeshore Lodge... but perhaps it would be a draw to get more members out to the resort (and allow them to sell many, many more points).

I would be surprised if resort view rooms came in at BRV/CCV point levels unless there are very few of them... but I also was shocked by the point charts at the cabins, so I suppose anything is possible!
I think Preferred charts being close to Riviera sounds right but I would have described it as "at least a couple points cheaper than Poly Tower preferred."
I don't have a strong opinion on Premium, because I haven't looked at the view lines...I would not expect it to be more than Riviera Preferred unless the view is incredible. Having the cabins comparable to CCV cabins sounds right, assuming they are about the same size?

One reason PVB tower may not have added CL is because Poly resort already has a lounge for cash guests.

The only reason AKV got CL is because the 6th floor was going to DVC and there was no way to prevent those guests from accessing CL as that was where it is located.

It’s a limited common element of the association but the hotel side pays a good portion of the cost to run it.

If the hotel side decided to abandon CL for cash guests, IIRC, DVC would shut it down because the owners would have to fund it 100%.

Now, if LSL is a mixed use, and they want CL for cash, then it’s possible they will make some rooms CL?

 

[HyperspaceMountainPilot]

One reason PVB tower may not have added CL is because Poly resort already has a lounge for cash guests.

The only reason AKV got CL is because the 6th floor was going to DVC and there was no way to prevent those guests from accessing CL as that was where it is located.

It’s a limited common element of the association but the hotel side pays a good portion of the cost to run it.

If the hotel side decided to abandon CL for cash guests, IIRC, DVC would shut it down because the owners would have to fund it 100%.

Now, if LSL is a mixed use, and they want CL for cash, then it’s possible they will make some rooms CL?

Everything you said makes sense to me, but I still think if Disney thought more concierge level DVC rooms were a good idea, we would have seen them (with stratospheric point charts).