Any Reformed FP- Uber Users Who Have Embraced FP+ ?

[Laketravis]

I'd like to revisit the Kidd's touring plan, and try to determine how spending no more than 6 hours in a park, leaving by noon, etc... can be effective and efficient for everyone while not requiring additional days.

 

[MrInfinity]

Personally, I think the whole complaint boils down to this ... "I can't ride __________ 3 or 4 times a day like I used to, and the standby lines are a little longer for my other favorites"

Thus far nobody's been honest enough to actually say that, but I believe that statement boils the issue down to its core issues.

I've said this many times. This is precisely the issue. FP- was a "hidden gem" in that if you knew it well, you could manipulate it to get on way way way more than the average guest. You could pull tickets early, pocket them, save them up for later, there was a whole strategy to it. All at once, that is gone.

I've made the analogy of an ATM where you go up every morning and find that a bank happens to spit out a $5 bill at the same time. You use it for years, picking up your $5 a day, nobody ever knows, only the bank loses money. (even tho really, all the other bank customers are losing as a result). Then one day, the bank fixes it, and you're MAD at the bank for fixing their ATM which previously only benefitted you. Now all of a sudden your secret edge is gone, and you are just like everyone else. That's what FP+ did to those who used to know FP-. I get that, and believe me I felt the change as much as anyone!

But the case LakeTravis has asserted, is that now under FP+, a WDW vacation is reduced to riding 3 rides via FP+ and then everything else via long slow lines. And that is just not the case. Tho that may have been his experience, that was by his choice, not a force of his hand by Disney / FP+. I and many others have demonstrated that with a little re-thinking of ones plan, you can get pretty much as much value out of FP+ as you did out of FP-. And I have done that on my trips. On a given day at HS on a SWW day, we rode (seriously) TSMM x2, RR x2, TOT, Star Tours x4 (approx), GMR, saw Dis Jr LOS, met Buzz and several Star Wars characters, PLUS made both opening and closing ceremonies, plus used our RD time to register for JTA, plus had a Galactic Breakfast. That is one heck of a day to conclude that as a result of FP+, one is limited to 3 and done. It is just not the case. I would just like if LakeTravis acknowledges that FP+ does not cause such abysmal vacations just because his was so.

 

[Shaden]

Hey, it only took 20 pages of Lake rewording

To be fair, Lake clarified this for you .... 6 days ago, six, DAYS ago.

His statement would be more accurate if he had said "Unless you are satisfied by sleeping in and getting walk ons for three rides then standing in longer lines, embracing FP+ is hard". I would assume that's what he meant. He didn't preclude explicitly doing more than 3 rides, but I can see that interpretation. Now, long lines aren't universally true, some days are going to be lighter, lower crowds, etc. You might have lower waits on those days. But even on those days, on average, after FP+, the waits are still going to be longer than they were before FP+. And if we are talking about "embracing FP+" for many that makes it difficult, especially when they used to not have problems getting those 3 FPs (or more) under the old system, even when sleeping in.

That is what I meant. Apparently I need to spell things out in much more detail so the meaning is not misinterpreted. But then, I've also been admonished more than once for providing too much detail. Maybe some day I'll find a middle ground that satisfies the resident wordsmiths.

Although it does seem my explanation in regards to yield management and it's effect on queue times has escaped the attention of some who should have read it.

 

[Shaden]

While it seems clear that standby wait times at some rides have increased, is there a direct correlation to FP+? With the economy improving, I expect overall park attendance is up and responsible for this change. Do we have any insight or numbers for the number of people in the parks? I think that would be more worthwhile to compare against standby wait times.

According to Fuzzy, according to Iger, attendance was up 4%, I think that's what he quoted.

There is no one that seriously debates that FP+ wouldn't increase SB wait times. It should, that is just a natural outcome of the system, all things being held equal, it would increase SB wait times. Overall wait times, averaged out per park guest, that's another story and dependent on impacts on demand and perception.

 

[Angel Ariel]

But really, you are ok with someone saying that a current WDW vacation has no value beyond being able to enjoy only three attractions a day, and having to wait on long standby lines for everything else?

It depends on how they've worded their post. If they are simply stating what their opinion of the system is, and that their opinion is that they are no longer finding value in the system because they feel they can only enjoy 3 attractions/day without having to wait in long standby lines, I can't really argue with that. It's *their* opinion about *their experience* - that doesn't mean I agree with their assessment (as I wouldn't in that case), but they are certainly welcome to their opinion and welcome to voice it just as much as I am welcome to voice mine.

If, however, someone is posting something more along the lines of "FP+ is terrible because *everyone* is stuck with only 3 attractions and then *everyone* is stuck with long lines, etc - that is something different, as that is clearly NOT true for *everyone*.

In the first example, someone is speaking only for themselves and their feelings. That's valid - everyone should be able to do that, regardless of who agrees with them or not.

In the second, someone is extrapolating their experience to everyone else as well, and that is something entirely different.

Yes or no, do you think that is an accurate representation of a WDW vacation for the average WDW guest, or very many WDW guests at all? Come on, honestly?

No, I don't think it's an accurate representation for the average guest, or probably even very many guests. I do acnowledge that it may be accurate for some, though, and those people do have a right to voice that opinion if that is how they feel.

No one, though, IMO has the right to extrapolate that because their experience was "x," then everyone else's experience should be "x" as well, no matter what side of the discussion they are on.

 

[Laketravis]

While it seems clear that standby wait times at some rides have increased, is there a direct correlation to FP+? With the economy improving, I expect overall park attendance is up and responsible for this change. Do we have any insight or numbers for the number of people in the parks? I think that would be more worthwhile to compare against standby wait times.

Hey neighbor! We're pretty close here in central TX.

I'm just going to throw some raw numbers out there that have been the basis for the conclusion, I'm sure those who don't agree will be quick to point out why.

By Disney's own estimates, park attendance is up in the single digit range.

But by calculations using streaming wait time stats, others have illustrated how standby waits for the most popular attractions have been stabilized or slightly reduced while the waits for the lesser attractions have increased, in some cases substantially and as much as double.

The construct of FP+ (forcing every participant to choose 3, including more resources and resulting FP+ queues in the selection pool, etc...) do result in a flattening of the demand curve which tends to equally distribute wait times.

Case in point - if crowds at WDW have increased dramatically, where is the corresponding dramatic increase in Tier One standby wait times? There isn't.

 

[DisneyKidds]

Didn't we do the same thing DisneyKidds, when I reposted the same question to you, and you just kept ignoring it ? (Just checked, that was another thread, but still the same thing) Would you like me to go and dig up that back and forth from earlier in this thread ?

Sure, sorry if I missed a question. I'll answer anything.

 

[SeanTomorrow]

While it seems clear that standby wait times at some rides have increased, is there a direct correlation to FP+? With the economy improving, I expect overall park attendance is up and responsible for this change. Do we have any insight or numbers for the number of people in the parks? I think that would be more worthwhile to compare against standby wait times.

I've been wondering the same thing. Essentially, how are people "controlling" for increasing park attendance and it's effect on lines?

It doesn't invalidate anyone's experience of longer lines. But if overall attendance is increasing, it does make me wonder what's really due to fastpass.

As an engineer, I liked Len Testa's approach. He said, controlling for increasing overall attendance, FP+ seemed to increase some SB lines and decrease others. The movement was generally +/- 10 minutes or less. You might not believe his methodology, but it sounds reasonable to me.

 

[DisneyKidds]

To be fair, Lake clarified this for you .... 6 days ago, six, DAYS ago.

He didn't really clarify anything, because even his amended statement, I feel, was misleading and incorrect as a generalization of FP+. Sure, it might have been true for him, but that isn't how he presented it, and when asked to clarify what touring strategy resulted in that kind of experience.....well, he still hasn't answered that.

 

[Laketravis]

He didn't really clarify anything, because even his amended statement, I feel, was misleading and incorrect as a generalization of FP+. Sure, it might have been true for him, but that isn't how he presented it, and when asked to clarify what touring strategy resulted in that kind of experience.....well, he still hasn't answered that.

Kidd, why don't you go ahead and post that successful touring strategy for everyone's benefit?

 

[Laketravis]

As an engineer, I liked Len Testa's approach. He said, controlling for increasing overall attendance, FP+ seemed to increase some SB lines and decrease others. The movement was generally +/- 10 minutes or less. You might not believe his methodology, but it sounds reasonable to me.

Exactly. I know there are some that hate hearing this, but it's pure Yield Management. And those principles clearly define a flattening of the demand curve (and resulting queue times) across the resource pool.

What WDW wasn't "magic" - they took a resource pool that had some attractions regularly experiencing several hour waits while others sat dormant and were walk-ons. They equalized and tiered them, artificially increasing demand for the dormant resources while managing demand for the most popular. The result is that there are fewer if any resources without a wait under most conditions while the most popular attractions have not seen an increase and in some cases a slight decrease.

But if anyone wants to dissect the cause/effect to a granular level, simply research yield management and get back to us.

 

[DisneyKidds]

I'd like to revisit the Kidd's touring plan, and try to determine how spending no more than 6 hours in a park, leaving by noon, etc... can be effective and efficient for everyone while not requiring additional days.

Revisit away, what do you want to know?

 

[HollieS]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I have yet to see an article with data on longer wait times. Most of the increases are around 5 minutes or less.

http://blog.touringplans.com/2014/02/19/fastpass-affecting-your-wait-in-line-disney-world/


Articles like the one above are calling it a wash. I realize that over the course of a day 5 minutes will add up to less rides but unless you've got your stop watch running would you even notice?

 

[Suvadoo]

Have to admit, while I don't post as much, I've been following the thread waiting for Suvadoo or Lake Travis to actually answer your question instead of redirect with a clever tangent every time you ask it.

I'm not trying to evade or deflect anything.
I think I've answered this question on previous posts in this thread:

In the past, I left the parks satisfied with the overall experience. Now I leave the parks in surrender. It's just not worth the hassle. I am at the Disney theme parks to ride the rides. I enjoy the shows, music, dancing fountains, and characters. But I can experience all of those things in my own city. So these are not reasons to stay in the parks.

Cycling guests through the parks may be a short term benefit for Disney, but I think they're going to drive away a lot of repeat and first time visitors. If I can pay $100 and ride twice as many rides at Busch Gardens compared to the same $100 I pay at Disney, I'm going to Busch Gardens. Yes the theming is superior at the Disney parks, but theming can only go so far. I want experiences.

I'm in the process of planning a trip for April. It's a split between WDW and Universal. I've got the days picked out to visit each resort, but you know what? I'm not even terribly excited about the WDW portion of the trip. We're going for Flower and Garden, which we love. But I am dreading trying to pick which specific park on a specific day, which attractions to pick for FP+, and the best FP+ times for our family.

I am, however, excited for Universal. Early entry for Harry Potter and express pass for the rest of the day. We can decide what park to visit based on a whim and we can ride anything we feel like without being concerned about ride reservations.

As I'm planning the WDW portion of this trip, I'm fantasizing about planning my next DLR vacation, because it is going to be a similar experience to the Universal portion of the April trip. We can decide what park to visit based on a whim and we can ride anything we feel like without being concerned about ride reservations.

 

[Laketravis]

Revisit away, what do you want to know?

As I asked and am still waiting for in another thread:

Why don't you just post a touring plan that you recommend for everyone? And be specific, please. Like what attractions when, what parks when, how far in advance to reserve those FP's, how to do so regardless of group or family size, reserve flexibility for things like ADR's and kiddie meltdowns, how many days will be required, you know...specifics.

Because from what I've already seen, your recommendations so far have been to not spend more than 6 hours in the park, to be out by noon, etc. I'm not sure how much can be accomplished with that strategy or how many days it will require?

 

[MrInfinity]

I'm not trying to evade or deflect anything.
I think I've answered this question on previous posts in this thread:

Now I leave the parks in surrender.

Why tho? I don't see why you're leaving the parks in surrender. You can get so much done. See my previous post. I rode all the headliners at HS multiple times, plus did a boatload of other stuff. At all 4 parks. How can we use the same system but you leave in surrender while others are able to get on tons?

 

[Laketravis]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I have yet to see an article with data on longer wait times. Most of the increases are around 5 minutes or less.

http://blog.touringplans.com/2014/02/19/fastpass-affecting-your-wait-in-line-disney-world/


Articles like the one above are calling it a wash. I realize that over the course of a day 5 minutes will add up to less rides but unless you've got your stop watch running would you even notice?

That article is almost a year old now, and was composed shortly after the legacy system was still available. The data it used is stale and conditions have changed much since then.

That same site offers the ability (thru manipulation of the URL itself) to compare year-over-year wait times of specific attractions. I do remember one specific example - Spaceship Earth, if I recall - where the difference was substantially more than just 5 or 10 minutes. Likewise with such attractions like Figment, Nemo, POTC, HM, etc......

 

[MrInfinity]

Kidd, why don't you go ahead and post that successful touring strategy for everyone's benefit?

(and more precisely)...

Why don't you just post a touring plan that you recommend for everyone?

This is not a reasonable question. There is no touring plan that would be recommended for everyone. Everyone likes different things. Perhaps if you tell about your situation and what you would like to get done in a day, I, and many others, would be happy to talk about ways to make it happen.

 

[DisneyKidds]

If, however, someone is posting something more along the lines of "FP+ is terrible because *everyone* is stuck with only 3 attractions and then *everyone* is stuck with long lines, etc - that is something different, as that is clearly NOT true for *everyone*........No one, though, IMO has the right to extrapolate that because their experience was "x," then everyone else's experience should be "x" as well, no matter what side of the discussion they are on.

BINGO!

You get it, but you don't seem to be trying to prove some point. ^ This is exactly what Lake did, and rather than admitting it was just his experience, one that may not apply to everyone, he gets evasive when asked to answer some simple questions regarding what kind of touring plan resulted in such a negative experience.

Anyone find it interesting that after such horrible, low value two week experiences a couple years running......he is planning another one this summer? Makes me think his experiences are not necessarily everything he presents them to be.

 

[mom2rtk]

That article is almost a year old now, and was composed shortly after the legacy system was still available. The data it used is stale and conditions have changed much since then.

That same site offers the ability (thru manipulation of the URL itself) to compare year-over-year wait times of specific attractions. I do remember one specific example - Spaceship Earth, if I recall - where the difference was substantially more than just 5 or 10 minutes. Likewise with such attractions like Figment, Nemo, POTC, HM, etc......

Another problem with wait time comparisons like that is that they don't factor in now the rides that move from FP to standby for many of us. Want to repeat a headliner? Instead of a FP wait, it's now a standby wait. The wait on that particular headliner might be 5 or 10 minutes shorter now, but when you can't access FP for it, the standby wait is MUCH longer than even a shortened FP wait. If that makes sense.