Any Reformed FP- Uber Users Who Have Embraced FP+ ?

[Laketravis]

OK.Specifically what did I say that was wrong?

The real facts are:

1. You are a retired senior and represent a very unique demographic with a short sales cycle to WDW. Your preferences and expectations are much different than the "average" guest.
2. I'm not that far behind you - I'm in my 50's and I can enjoy many of the same things you do. But currently and like many families, my vacation experiences take into account the preferences of a young son.
3. Unfortunately, you and I are pretty much irrelevant to Disney outside of being potential DVC targets; they care more about a different demographic.
4. No parent that I know of is going to take their kids to WDW under the premise "you are going to have a good time whether you like it or not".

I bring #4 to light because that is what I am unfortunately facing. DS9 reached a conclusion that is completely opposite that of us old farts - he thinks something is better than WDW. So I asked him to write a report about which he liked better and why and email them to Disney.

He did. Below is what he sent and to be honest with you, I think Disney will pay much more attention to what he thinks then you or I:

"Dear Mister Disney. I like Universal Studios better than Disney World for 5 reasons. The first reason is because Universal Studios has more rides then Disney World. The second reason why Universal is better than Disney World is because Universal has 4d stuff not 3d stuff. The third reason why Universal is better is because if you stay at a Universal resort hotel you get unlimited express passes. The fourth reason why Universal is better is because you get early entry if you have a season pass. The fifth reason why Universal is better is because it has Harry Potter stuff. These are the reasons why I like Universal better than Disney World."

MY point was that I think WDW can make the current situation much more appealing by simply tweaking everyone's expectations of how long they have to wait in an FP line and open it up to more than 3. That's it. Any discussion about how you or I or anyone else tour differently during what times of the year and what it takes to make us happy or derive value isn't germane to my original point.

 

[MrInfinity]

If you gave me an unlimited front of the line pass, I would still not spend 12-14 hours in a park riding rides over and over again. On the other hand, if I just wanted to spend time at a resort lounging around a pool or a beach or just having a "resort experience", I would get bored very quickly.

Exactly! I'm the same way. Even if I could ride all day long, I wouldn't. I would ride some, but I would hit my point where we rode what we wanted, and we'd want to do other things. Same thing with ice cream. If I could eat 10 gallons in a row for free, I'd still have a bowl, and then put it away till I wanted some another time. Roller Coasters are great but they are just one small part of what makes Disney World such an appealing vacation destination.

My perfect Disney vacation would be getting up in the morning when I'm ready to get up, which is usually pretty early anyway, taking my time getting to a park, spending a few hours doing rides and attractions without having to wait for anything, taking a break at the resort lounging around by the pool reading a book or something similar, and then going to a park for a few more hours enjoying a few more attractions and maybe a nighttime show before retiring for the night by about 10 PM.

Totally agree. In an ideal world, I would go in to the parks a little later. Still early, cuz I'm an early riser, but I would not push for rope drop so regularly. I do that because it beats the crowds, and allows us to ride the rides earlier, which makes more time, later, for other stuff. It's a tradeoff.

Over the course of the trip, I would want to do all of my favorite attractions at least once, but I would very rarely do anything more than once in a day. We would probably only spend about 8 hours a day in the parks, 4 or 5 hours starting in the morning and 3-4 hours in the evening.

Agree here, too. My kids would ride things several times, probly even 3-4 times, but they're pretty good with just a couple times too. And I'm good with once or twice, save for some really great things that were new to us like Test Track.

Of course, this ideal Disney vacation is not really possible, except maybe in the least busy of times. But, we can come pretty close by getting to the parks when they open and doing the most popular attractions then. FP+ allows us to enjoy a few popular attractions in the evening, something that wasn't really possible with paper FPs without spending all day in the parks.

Yep. By using Rope Drop and FastPass, we can get pretty close to our ideal vacation too. This is easier to do, now, with FP+, than it was before, with FP-. I think most people coming for a resort vacation are like you and I, in that they want to do a good number of rides, but not just ride all day long. Most people do actually like spending time at the pool, even tho that's fewer rides-per-dollar or however ppl calculate it out. Some people would sooner sit by the pool w their SO and enjoy some drinks till midnight then sleep in till 10 because they're on vacation not a ride-maximizing-schedule. FP+ is PERFECTLY suited to help these ppl (not lazy - vacationing) get on just enough headliner rides that their trip becomes wonderful. A few rides, time away, relaxing, etc. With FP- you really only got the benefit of it if you were the crowd that was into getting there early before the FP- tickets ran out.

 

[mom2rtk]

He also said that they only visit every 4-5 years.

Yes, but you can make up for a lot of lost time in a 16 day trip. It also changes the expectations one would have out of a typical park day from someone who comes in for 5 days and has 1 day per park, with maybe a second day in the MK.

 

[DisneyKidds]

I know you're addressing your question to Laketravis, but I know from his previous posts that he was at Universal over NYE season this year. so, it was a really crowded time of year. Are you saying you were able to get all the FP+'s you mention at this same time of year?

Yes, we used all those FP+ last week. We were there from Dec 27 to Jan 2.

 

[MrInfinity]

I like Universal Studios better than Disney World for 5 reasons. The first reason is because Universal Studios has more rides then Disney World. The second reason why Universal is better than Disney World is because Universal has 4d stuff not 3d stuff. The third reason why Universal is better is because if you stay at a Universal resort hotel you get unlimited express passes. The fourth reason why Universal is better is because you get early entry if you have a season pass. The fifth reason why Universal is better is because it has Harry Potter stuff. These are the reasons why I like Universal better than Disney World.

Based on these reasons, this person would prefer my back yard to either USF or WDW.

1) My back yard has more rides than either park. There is the lawn-mowing ride, the leaf-raking ride, the replacing-the-bark ride, just to name a few.

2) My back yard is totally 4D. You can jump in the leaves as you rake, and who doesn't love the smell of a freshly cut lawn. Heck sometimes the cleaning-the-grill ride smells like steak!

3) I'd happily give out Express Passes to be first to do all of these things.

4) Early entry? No problem! Come the night before if you want. Super-early-entry even USF can't beat that!

5) We have HP stuff too. We have all the LEGO sets, and all the movies! We also have light sabers... Oh wait that's Star Wars. Uni ONLY has HP.

So you see, the 5 reasons above can be applied to pretty much anything. The reason they fall apart is simple...

DISNEY WORLD IS AWESOME.

Families just like to go there. Period. It is so attractive because of the big-picture vacation it offers, not just the rides, not just the passes, not just the food, but they have it all, they make it easy, and accommodating to families. They do this better than any other park anywhere. Thus there is incredibly high demand for it. USF can give out FOTL passes not because they're better, but because their rides are in less demand! That's why giving them out actually works. Heck USF will give you a 3rd night free most times just to get you to stay more than one day per park. At WDW we stay a week and would stay more if we could!

 

[Laketravis]

Based on these reasons, this person would prefer my back yard to either USF or WDW.

"This person" is my kid. And I seriously doubt he would prefer your back yard to either.

I take my kid on trips. He liked this last one much more than others. I asked him to explain why. Try to see it from that point of view.

 

[amg35]

Just had to chime in and say we are planning our first cruise on Royal Caribbean for November and I'm on the cruise critic message boards and it's like deja vu -

Over there, there are the RC "veterans" with a lot of complaints about how it's going downhill with service, people drinking the kool-aid, nickel and diming..etc.
I had to double check to make sure I wasn't back planning another WDW trip.


That's all, it's just funny, people who love a product have the same issues everywhere.

 

[TISHLOVESDISNEY]

I asked my son, who is 11, after our trip, which park he liked better, Universal or Disney his response:
"I liked the rides at Universal better, but Disney is inside me"
His words...

 

[Laketravis]

Just had to chime in and say we are planning our first cruise on Royal Caribbean for November and I'm on the cruise critic message boards and it's like deja vu -

Over there, there are the RC "veterans" with a lot of complaints about how it's going downhill with service, people drinking the kool-aid, nickel and diming..etc.
I had to double check to make sure I wasn't back planning another WDW trip.


That's all, it's just funny, people who love a product have the same issues everywhere.

It really is the same - people adopt preferences and often form very strong emotional opinions to support those preferences. It can make having an object discussion void of emotion difficult if not impossible at times.

 

[Shaden]

Yep. By using Rope Drop and FastPass, we can get pretty close to our ideal vacation too. This is easier to do, now, with FP+, than it was before, with FP-. I think most people coming for a resort vacation are like you and I, in that they want to do a good number of rides, but not just ride all day long. Most people do actually like spending time at the pool, even tho that's fewer rides-per-dollar or however ppl calculate it out. Some people would sooner sit by the pool w their SO and enjoy some drinks till midnight then sleep in till 10 because they're on vacation not a ride-maximizing-schedule. FP+ is PERFECTLY suited to help these ppl (not lazy - vacationing) get on just enough headliner rides that their trip becomes wonderful. A few rides, time away, relaxing, etc. With FP- you really only got the benefit of it if you were the crowd that was into getting there early before the FP- tickets ran out.

The irony here is pretty awesome.

FP+ works great because we rope drop.

FP- wasn't as good because you had to rope drop.

 

[DisneyKidds]

Lake...your ideas regarding FP+ have some merit. I'm still not sure I'd be just has happy waiting an extra 10 minutes in every FP return line with the trade-off being I could wait in a 40 minute line instead of a 60 minute line. I'll admit it, I'm spoiled, I won't wait in any 40 minute line, or 30 minutes for that matter. Under FP+ as it is we don't have to and we still get everything in we want. However, I'll admit that my family may not be typical. Nonetheless, your ideas have merit.

That said, we really haven't even hit the first anniversary of full implementation of a $1b plus system that isn't going anywhere. I'm sure they will start tweaking, tinkering and experimenting to see if they can't get to what they might consider an optimal implementation. I suppose I could be happy getting say 5 FP+ (2 tier 1, 3 tier 2) a day that come with 10 minute waits, a mix that would hopefully shorten standby lines (by putting more people into FP). Disney is going to have a lot of years to perfect the system.....

 

[Laketravis]

Heck USF will give you a 3rd night free most times just to get you to stay more than one day per park.

So offering a 33% resort discount is a desperate attempt to keep you onsite? Using that fuzzy logic, what does free dining say?

 

[Shaden]

I suppose I could be happy getting say 5 FP+ (2 tier 1, 3 tier 2) a day that come with 10 minute waits, a mix that would hopefully shorten standby lines (by putting more people into FP). Disney is going to have a lot of years to perfect the system.....

The problem generally seems to be that by putting more people in FP, you actually increase the SB lines.

For every FP that I hold, I can essentially be waiting in 2 lines at once. You actually increase the demand on the attractions.

If I only wait 10 mins for 5 rides, I am going to do those rides in less than an hour, and then still want to ride a bunch of stuff for the next few hours.

 

[jrtoastyman]

Likely true. What if, though, Disney broke up the benefits between the resorts? For example, they could split the resorts into 4 different groups. Contemporary, Polynesian, Caribbean Beach, and Art of Animation could be group one, Grand Floridian, Wilderness Lodge, Port Orleans (both), and Pop Century could be group 2, Beach Club, Yacht Club, Boardwalk, and Coronado Springs could be group 3, and Animal Kingdom Lodge and the All Stars could be group 4. On one day, group one could have extra magic hours at one park while group 2 had extra magic hours at another, group 3 at another, and group 4 and the last park. Or, you could make it so that everyone has FP+ but each group has access to legacy FP or more FP+ at a certain park each day. Or, do something similar to Universal where each group has front of the line access in a specific park each day. Changes would have to be made, of course. Things like Wishes and MSEP would have to be offered every night, but it seems to me that that would really help with crowd control and increasing the benefits of staying on site would increase the likelihood of people staying in one of Disney's resorts.

An interesting idea, but I could see the natives revolting, because it basically dictates people's schedules for them, compelling them to go to a particular park if they want to be able to take advantage of limited waits. What if I'm doing a quick trip and I'm only there for like 3 days, and the park I care most about isn't on my rotation? What if I really want to eat at a restaurant, but the only day I can get a reservation is when I would benefit from being in a different park? I just see there being too many moving parts...

 

[MrInfinity]

The irony here is pretty awesome.

FP+ works great because we rope drop.

FP- wasn't as good because you had to rope drop.

It is only ironic if you misquote it and reword it to be ironic! Notice I did not say FP+ works great because we rope drop. You added the because. What I said was by using RD and FP, we get pretty close to our ideal vacation! By using all the options, one of which was RD, one of which was FP. There was no because. Now with FP-, yes, you only got the benefit if you got there early. FP- wasn't as good because you had to rope drop to get the benefit from it. The later you got there, the less benefit you got. With FP+ you get the same benefit no matter when you get there.

 

[Laketravis]

Lake...your ideas regarding FP+ have some merit. I'm still not sure I'd be just has happy waiting an extra 10 minutes in every FP return line with the trade-off being I could wait in a 40 minute line instead of a 60 minute line. I'll admit it, I'm spoiled, I won't wait in any 40 minute line, or 30 minutes for that matter. Under FP+ as it is we don't have to and we still get everything in we want. However, I'll admit that my family may not be typical. Nonetheless, your ideas have merit.

That said, we really haven't even hit the first anniversary of full implementation of a $1b plus system that isn't going anywhere. I'm sure they will start tweaking, tinkering and experimenting to see if they can't get to what they might consider an optimal implementation. I suppose I could be happy getting say 5 FP+ (2 tier 1, 3 tier 2) a day that come with 10 minute waits, a mix that would hopefully shorten standby lines (by putting more people into FP). Disney is going to have a lot of years to perfect the system.....

I feel the same way, I'll never understand how anyone could wait an hour or more for something that is over in a minute or less. But I'd gladly trade 3 reserved-in-advance no-wait FP's for unlimited no-reservation-required FP's with a 10 or 15 minute wait each. And I agree there is plenty of opportunity for Disney to tweak the system and look forward to them doing so - perhaps it's as simple as realigning guest expectations in regards to the difference between no wait and a short wait. That could be easy but would take some time.

And by the way, thanks for having a reasonable and logical discussion about this. It's refreshing to be able to do so on pure mechanics and merit.

 

[MrInfinity]

So offering a 33% resort discount is a desperate attempt to keep you onsite? Using that fuzzy logic, what does free dining say?

No, I'm saying the typical stay at USF is 2 days. This is evidenced by the fact that they will often give out a 3rd day free.

It's not 33% off. If it was a flat 33% off, people would still stay 2 days but take 33% off that. They don't do this cuz that's what ppl would do. Instead they give the 3rd day free to try to get guests to stay the extra day for the incremental incidental spending.

Companies give out "free" stuff at the point where guests would not otherwise pay for it. At WDW, they have no reason to give a 3rd night free, because people typically go for more than that paying. Instead, Disney offers "free" dining as the promo to get people to spend incrementally more on dining. Uni is still back at trying to get guests to stay a 3rd day, while WDW has guests booking 5-10 day stays a year in advance. They are trying to get the next incremental amount of cash out of them, which is the dining deal, which costs you a hotel discount of course -- it's not free so Disney is trying to give away some cheap food to get people to give up their cash savings on the rooms.

 

[wisblue]

The real facts are:

1. You are a retired senior and represent a very unique demographic with a short sales cycle to WDW. Your preferences and expectations are much different than the "average" guest.
2. I'm not that far behind you - I'm in my 50's and I can enjoy many of the same things you do. But currently and like many families, my vacation experiences take into account the preferences of a young son.
3. Unfortunately, you and I are pretty much irrelevant to Disney outside of being potential DVC targets; they care more about a different demographic.
4. No parent that I know of is going to take their kids to WDW under the premise "you are going to have a good time whether you like it or not".

I bring #4 to light because that is what I am unfortunately facing. DS9 reached a conclusion that is completely opposite that of us old farts - he thinks something is better than WDW. So I asked him to write a report about which he liked better and why and email them to Disney.

He did. Below is what he sent and to be honest with you, I think Disney will pay much more attention to what he thinks then you or I:

"Dear Mister Disney. I like Universal Studios better than Disney World for 5 reasons. The first reason is because Universal Studios has more rides then Disney World. The second reason why Universal is better than Disney World is because Universal has 4d stuff not 3d stuff. The third reason why Universal is better is because if you stay at a Universal resort hotel you get unlimited express passes. The fourth reason why Universal is better is because you get early entry if you have a season pass. The fifth reason why Universal is better is because it has Harry Potter stuff. These are the reasons why I like Universal better than Disney World."

MY point was that I think WDW can make the current situation much more appealing by simply tweaking everyone's expectations of how long they have to wait in an FP line and open it up to more than 3. That's it. Any discussion about how you or I or anyone else tour differently during what times of the year and what it takes to make us happy or derive value isn't germane to my original point.

A lot of words without addressing my question. Here is what I posted that you said was "wrong":

Keep in mind that LT was at WDW for 16 days , with at least 10 park days, for the second consecutive year. He has also said that he doesn't like repetition. So, it shouldn't be too surprising that at some point it would be hard to find new and interesting things to do in the Disney parks. That is obviously a much different situation than a guest who only visits for a few days or a week once every few years.

I have always been very open about my situation so that others can take my opinions and preferences into perspective and decide for themselves how they apply to them. I think the same should apply to you, and I was just pointing that out. Are the things that I highlighted above not "real facts"?

It seems pretty apparent that your family has progressed to the point that Universal represents a better experience and value than Disney FOR YOU. By all means then, spend your time and money at Universal. But, there are a lot of people, including those who have experienced both, who have little if any interest in spending much time at Universal. So, a lot of analysis about why Universal is better than Disney does absolutely nothing to help people plan their trips, which is what this forum is supposed to be about.

If my daughters had ever said that they didn't enjoy Disney that much any more, you'd better believe we would have stopped taking them. But, we never faced that. We usually visited WDW every other year and all we heard was a lot of grumbling in the years we didn't go. Now those daughters are all bigger Disney fanatics than I ever was.

 

[SmithSmith]

I'm not some Universal advocate slamming Disney; I just looked at the mechanics of Express Pass, can see why it can work better than FP+, and think that with just some small changes WDW could greatly improve the current system.

What I'm suggesting is that perhaps all WDW has to do is stop promoting FP+ as a zero-wait solution and instead promote it as a "shorter than standby" solution.

Because it appears that most people agree a 10-15 minute wait is not a big deal. If WDW would simply adjust the FP/SB ratios AND guest expectations to allow for 10-15 minute FP wait times, the SB waits would be shorter and there would be no need for a limit of three in one park per day. Mathematically, it may very well accommodate all 22 resorts at 80% occupancy. Off site guests? Make 'em pay a sliding scale based on demand and adjust the ratios slightly.

No, this person does not agree. I would be furious if FP lines took 10-15 minutes. On my last trip I only had 3 total ride waits (over the course of a week) that were 10-15 minutes long. Are you suggesting that at a minimum I would have had 10-15 minute waits at 18 attractions?!

 

[Laketravis]

No, I'm saying the typical stay at USF is 2 days. This is evidenced by the fact that they will often give out a 3rd day free.

It's not 33% off. If it was a flat 33% off, people would still stay 2 days but take 33% off that. They don't do this cuz that's what ppl would do. Instead they give the 3rd day free to try to get guests to stay the extra day for the incremental incidental spending.

Companies give out "free" stuff at the point where guests would not otherwise pay for it. At WDW, they have no reason to give a 3rd night free, because people typically go for more than that paying. Instead, Disney offers "free" dining as the promo to get people to spend incrementally more on dining. Uni is still back at trying to get guests to stay a 3rd day, while WDW has guests booking 7-10 day stays a year in advance. They are trying to get the next incremental amount of cash out of them, which is the dining deal, which costs you a hotel discount of course -- it's not free so Disney is trying to give away some cheap food to get people to give up their cash savings on the rooms.

Say what?

Not to mention you have to buy park tickets for a minimum number of days to get free dining. There goes your argument.

You should change your username to "TwistedLogic".