Any news on what was happening in River Country?

[jerivera]

So, any news as to what was happening on River Country? I know a few months back there was a rumor that a new DVC resort was being put in its place. Is that still the rumor, or did it go in a different direction?

Thanks!!

 

[doconeill]

Nothing new that I have heard.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

So, any news as to what was happening on River Country? I know a few months back there was a rumor that a new DVC resort was being put in its place. Is that still the rumor, or did it go in a different direction?

Thanks!!

Eventually they'll put someting there...but you have to be realistic. Their business is nowhere near the level it needs to be by their own set standards to have lots of new construction projects going on right now.

Especially at WDW...which is just a cash generating cow and therefore is now looked at as maximum revenue at lower costs if and when possible.

I just don't see any reason in the immediate future for them to dig up in fort wilderness. it's a good area...but i can't see it. it took them 10 years to build on the other side of the lake at pop century...and that was an embarasssing eyesore that caused much cringing as the cars rolled by.

DVC is the one area that could be a spot for fortwilderness...though i would think that a simple extra building tacked onto wilderness lodge would be more prudent...since it is the smallest unit at WDW by a good bit. DVC has nothing new coming down the pike to spark sales in WDW...and i would guess that that will not be acceptable for much longer.
My guess is on sometype of Saratoga-esque monstrousity out on the western edge above animal kingdom...i also belive that DVC at polynesian is an absolute certainty and the grand floridian is also likely to follow...after the four seasons is built we will see something moving on that front.

so fort wilderness would be farther down from my perspective....but it's just that.

 

[bookwormde]

DVC need a sales (and the massive profits that come with it) driver by mid 2013 so one is coming somewhere on property and with the evidence so far 400-600 2br equivelents between FW and VWL are leading the list of probabilities.

bookwormde

 

[lockedoutlogic]

DVC need a sales (and the massive profits that come with it) driver by mid 2013 so one is coming somewhere on property and with the evidence so far 400-600 2br equivelents between FW and VWL are leading the list of probabilities.

bookwormde

when last i checked the discussion on fort wilderness was of a western style "downtown disney" type project as an additional retail section.

but i definitely could see a DVC block going there....i just don't see where there is "evidence" to suggest that.

The case for grand floridian and more specifically the Poly is a little more compelling based on a couple of things:

1. There is a pad that was prepped next to the TTC and Polynesian in the 1960's for an additional hotel - the venetian if i recall - that could support a DVC unit fairly easily...as far as anything being built in that swamp could be termed "easy"
2. The Four Seasons is a significant step by WDW's management. By cutting that deal they are conceeding that they are willing to let the elite clientele be handled by those that know how to do it. From my firsthand experience i can assure you that the Grand Floridian (and the poly as the next in line on the pricegrid) sure as hell do not know how too. They just don't structure them for that segment and won't pay for the talent or training necessary to maintain that kind of a standard.
Once the four seasons goes online...that will allow them to downgrade the "deluxes" to "disney deluxe"...i.e. they won't have to maintain the illusion that their services rivals the more recognizable brands in the hotel business when it comes to big money clientele. And with that...they can then add DVC and then put those two hotels in the same mixed use setup that they now have at Contemporary, Beach Club, Boardwalk, Grand Californian, Wilderness Lodge, Animal Kingdom Lodge, and on Oahu.
Kinda an easy trend to spot...isn't it?
So they really do have two classes of DVC already - those near a gate with a slightly "elevated" feel to them and a slightly lesser "moderate" class...Old Key West, Saratoga, Hilton Head, and Vero Beach easily filling that role.
3. Of Course the big other elephant on this one is that they have the choo choo and the fiberglass castle as an obvious draw for new development around the lagoon. contemporary by all indications is a fairly easy sell...so now they move forward. And don't discount that fact that the existing polynesian and grand floridian have a larger number of retail and food locations with a comparitively smaller number of rooms (800-900) than all the other deluxes (and way less than the values or moderates) at this point. They have made every attempt to squeeze as many people into their staffed revenue generating spots at hotels as humanly possible. Whether we like it or not...this is a prime consideration and something they have analyzed thoroughly. Adding DVC to those two would "bring the numbers more inline" with what the blood sucking vultures...err i mean..."revenue department" and "strategic planning" want to see. The comtemporary added 300 villas and it doesn't seem like that has affected the crowding in their restaurants or shops one bit to the naked eye...but i am sure the revenues have gone up with little additional costs...cause there's just alot more people with few housekeepers and cashiers to serve them.

From this chair - and again i'm just looking at it objectively with the help of some actual work experience there (be it ten years ago)...it seems that a polynesian development is an all but certainty...and i would put the GF right behind.
That...and it allows more units to be developed in the near/immediate future without extra gates and guest areas to be built...which they seem to be completely against doing at WDW right now and would buy them about ten years to schlep more timeshares before they will need more attraction in another section of the property (western edge being the most logical) to expand their room offerings and the DVC that will be paired with it.
If you think about it - only yacht, poly and grand are the only spots left that allow timeshares to be built with the built-in advantages that they have sold them on already in place....even fort wilderness might be a harder sell. Camping/ Nature areas aren't exactly "all the rage"...especially not to DVC's largest buying component (ie the Eastern US Megaopolis)

ok...let me stop before i ramble all day

 

[doconeill]

The Venetian/Mediterranean location (opposite the TTC from the Poly, on the fan-like open area) was tested a few years back to see if it had stabilized, and it was still determined to be unsuitable from what I understand. It is a prime location begging for a resort - but the costs at this point are probably far too high.

The Poly is a difficult location due to lack of area to expand in to easily. Taking the Luau Cove is possible, but the monorail cuts right by it, and no real space for parking. Expansion out into the parking lot was proposed, but that takes away the parking lot and would affect the view unless the building was built taller.

I don't see Disney starting to call their places "Disney Deluxe". I think the Disney clientele already know what it is. The Four Seasons is a completely different beast and since Disney won't be selling or booking for that, they don't need to distinguish it.

I haven't heard of the "Downtown Disney" version of the RC development - it's always been resort oriented that I've heard, but with a lot of assumptions, like it will be DVC ("because only DVC builds resorts now") or that it will be based on the original Buffalo/Ft. Wilderness Junction plans (which I think someone remembered existed and put that idea out there). As far as I know Disney still wants Flamingo Crossings to develop - I can't see them dropping something like that smack in the middle of property.

 

[donald...really]

I think this is some of the evidence bookwormde was referring to:

http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=2583303

http://www.screamscape.com/html/walt_disney_world_resort.htm#NewResort

 

[bookwormde]

Yes building footpring plans are sized almost perfectly for the DVC 2br size and layout.

bookwormde

 

[pilferk]

The comtemporary added 300 villas and it doesn't seem like that has affected the crowding in their restaurants or shops one bit to the naked eye...but i am sure the revenues have gone up with little additional costs...cause there's just alot more people with few housekeepers and cashiers to serve them.

Just a couple things to point out:

1) With the Contemp...while they added 295 villas (14 Grand Villas and 267 2BR equivalents), they also took 250 rooms out of service when they demolished the North Garden Wing. Previous Max occupancy (which is the best comparative number to use...since I don't know what ACTUAL "average" occupancy is, per room) was around 5000 guests (1000 rooms...500 tower, 250 in each garden wing, max 5 guests per room).

Current Max occupancy is about 6300 (3750 in the Hotel, 2550 at BLT). About a 26% increase. Given the changes they made (expansion of Chef Mickey's, moving the arcade and quick service locations to the lobby, and the installation of "The Wave" (which I'm fairly sure has greater sq footage than the old Contemp Steakhouse)), I'm not sure you'd expect to see it's facilities get "overwhelmed". It was a modest expansion.

2) The Contemp expansion was able to make use of much of the infrastructure already in place for the North Garden Wing. There was certainly some expansion...but they didn't have to "start from scratch". I'm not sure (unless they demolish one of the longhouses at the Poly) the same sort of opportunity exists at the Poly and GF. With the GF, at least, I suspect they'd have to build from scratch, rather than demolish and rebuild something. The Poly...maybe not. There's a couple of longhouses they could probably demolish and build around/on top of. Services at both those locations would be interesting, though. I don't see the footprint (though I'm not sitting there designing it, either) available to "rearrange" that existed at the Contemp....though maybe I just lack the vision necessary to "urban plan" it.
But either project presents some interesting hurdles to overcome. That's not to say they can't/wouldn't...we saw they handle SOME of those issues with the building of BLT. I'm just saying that those sites might not be quite as "easy" as BLT and AKV were.

 

[umichigan10]

Eventually they'll put someting there...but you have to be realistic. Their business is nowhere near the level it needs to be by their own set standards to have lots of new construction projects going on right now.

Especially at WDW...which is just a cash generating cow and therefore is now looked at as maximum revenue at lower costs if and when possible.

I just don't see any reason in the immediate future for them to dig up in fort wilderness. it's a good area...but i can't see it. it took them 10 years to build on the other side of the lake at pop century...and that was an embarasssing eyesore that caused much cringing as the cars rolled by.

DVC is the one area that could be a spot for fortwilderness...though i would think that a simple extra building tacked onto wilderness lodge would be more prudent...since it is the smallest unit at WDW by a good bit. DVC has nothing new coming down the pike to spark sales in WDW...and i would guess that that will not be acceptable for much longer.
My guess is on sometype of Saratoga-esque monstrousity out on the western edge above animal kingdom...i also belive that DVC at polynesian is an absolute certainty and the grand floridian is also likely to follow...after the four seasons is built we will see something moving on that front.

so fort wilderness would be farther down from my perspective....but it's just that.

do you really think they would build a dvc at grand floridian? I'm just throwing it out there, but it doesn't seem like a place that DVC would add on.

 

[bookwormde]

Another BLT declararion so they are over 90% declared. which makes it liekely that BLT will be "sold out by late this year or early next year, leating jsut AKV and THV on site. I would guess that is will take all most of 2012 and maybe into 2013 to sell them out. You can be the DVD is not going to allow there not to be points available at WDW. The design form FW is a type that can be built in phases and from start to first section open could be 15 months so I would put a start date of no later then this fall, and more likely late summer.

bookwormde

 

[mjstaceyuofm]

I think it's a very reasonable assumption that Disney will not let DVC points be unavailable at any time at WDW. Like others here, I just don't see the practicality of how either parts of the Poly or GF could/would be converted to DVC resorts without overwhelming the actual main building of either resort.

Honestly, in looking at aerial imagery, it seems the most ideal place to expand any existing resort is the original "Vacation Club" at OKW. There's a ton of space east of the main building/pool that is naturally bordered by the the golf course (Lake Buena Vista hole #8 and the Sassagoula River). It seems like it would be fairly easy to slip a road in there, and add buildings/parking and another quiet pool without detracting from the resort. I don't know if Disney would be willing to add rooms of the same size of OKW as they've proven they can sell half the room for twice the points if they put them a bit closer to any park....

 

[Horace Horsecollar]

Honestly, in looking at aerial imagery, it seems the most ideal place to expand any existing resort is the original "Vacation Club" at OKW. There's a ton of space east of the main building/pool that is naturally bordered by the the golf course (Lake Buena Vista hole #8 and the Sassagoula River). It seems like it would be fairly easy to slip a road in there, and add buildings/parking and another quiet pool without detracting from the resort.

According to the Reedy Creek Improvement District Comprehensive Plan for 2020, the undeveloped forested area adjacent to Old Key West is identified as conservation land. Here's how conservation policy is defined:

"The Conservation category, as shown on the Future Land Use Map, shall be used to preserve semi-aquatic natural habitats, environmentally sensitive uplands, and wetlands. Structural improvements crossing the area shall be limited to the maximum extent possible."​

So this property is not available for an expansion of Disney's Old Key West Resort.

 

[mjstaceyuofm]

According to the Reedy Creek Improvement District Comprehensive Plan for 2020, the undeveloped forested area adjacent to Old Key West is identified as conservation land. Here's how conservation policy is defined:

"The Conservation category, as shown on the Future Land Use Map, shall be used to preserve semi-aquatic natural habitats, environmentally sensitive uplands, and wetlands. Structural improvements crossing the area shall be limited to the maximum extent possible."​

So this property is not available for an expansion of Disney's Old Key West Resort.

That was the one thing I was unsure about - the environmental implications. Seems pretty cut and dry if that's what the map and plan says.... no development.

That's OK, I like OKW the way it is and it's not like there's any issues getting in there...

 

[Cricket2]

So this property is not available for an expansion of Disney's Old Key West Resort.

...unless they offset that with land someplace else.

 

[rodkenrich]

,

 

[Figment632]

Fw dvc.

 

[manning]

...unless they offset that with land someplace else.

The offset has to be bigger if my memory is correct. Something like 1.5 times.