Another view on FP+

[JimmyV]

Doesn't matter. I added up the capacities of the tier-1's at EC, and concluded that there is enough for every guest to get 1. Simple. Disney has done this same math in far more detail I'm sure! I did the same thing for MK, picking the non-tiered rides that seem to be desirable, added them up, and came out to there being plenty for each guest to get 3.

The limits that we see in place ensure the availability of the FPs (in particular the Tier-1's) for everyone, even late-choosers like the day-of folks.

Not being argumentative (for once). But sincerely, what does your math show for 7DMT? I can't make it add up. There are already posts here of people getting shut out of rides 10 days in advance. And that is before off-site booking. There is probably a seat for every guest at every restaurant, but that doesn't mean that every person is going to get a seat at BoG, 'Ohana and the California Grill during Wishes. I suspect that FP+ will suffer the same fate for certain rides. For example, FP for TT + FP for Soarin' < Total Guests in Epcot on typical day, no? Don't more than 25,000-30,000 people go through the turnstiles each day? The total ride capacity per day is around 30,000 for both rides combined (I think) and the total FP distribution was around 21,000 for those rides combined.

Also, your post says that there is enough capacity at the Tier 1 rides for every guest to get a FP for one of them. But doesn't that max out the ride capacity in its entirey leaving nothing left for the SB people?

 

[mom2rtk]

Doesn't matter. I added up the capacities of the tier-1's at EC, and concluded that there is enough for every guest to get 1. Simple. Disney has done this same math in far more detail I'm sure! I did the same thing for MK, picking the non-tiered rides that seem to be desirable, added them up, and came out to there being plenty for each guest to get 3.

The limits that we see in place ensure the availability of the FPs (in particular the Tier-1's) for everyone, even late-choosers like the day-of folks.

I've looked over the tier 1's at Epcot too. And I concluded that I want Soarin. So you'll have to take Maelstrom.

 

[MrInfinity]

Not being argumentative (for once).

I know.

But sincerely, what does your math show for 7DMT? I can't make it add up.

Of course it won't add up. If SDMT handles 20,000 rides (just guessing -- I don't have info on the SDMT, but comparing it to BTMRR this seems fair) and there are 60,000 guests, obviously 40,000 guests are out of luck. no queuing system could change this, not even FP- so to say this is a FP+ problem would be incorrect. What you can do, and what will happen, is that now 20,000 guests will pull SDMT FPs, which will mean 20,000 other mountain Fast Passes will be available. It's a small consolation, but there just aren't enough ridings for that ride to handle everyone.

There is probably a seat for every guest at every restaurant, but that doesn't mean that every person is going to get a seat at BoG, 'Ohana and the California Grill during Wishes. I suspect that FP+ will suffer the same fate for certain rides. For example, FP for TT + FP for Soarin' < Total Guests in Epcot on typical day, no?

This is why there is Tiering at EC and HS. Disney studied, they found a disproportionate would all pull RR and TSMM, so they had to Tier it. If they found the same at the MK, they would tier it too. Thing is the MK has so many great rides that between Space, Splash, BTMRR, Pan, Pooh, A&E, C&R, SDMT, Belle, etc, there are so many rides that the crowds naturally choose a spread out distribution of them.

If at any time Disney discovered MK was like EC, and everyone pulled BTMRR and Space Mtn, then they would Tier those to prevent such and force the choosing of some other things. That's not proving to be the case.

And you're right on the dining, CRT does fill up faster than the LTT. Disney has balanced this with price, making CRT cost about twice as much.

 

[JanaDee]

But then TSMM FPs would run out before the late arrivers make it to DHS.

It is really puzzling and a bit amusing to me that people keep trumpeting "but we FINALLY got to ride TSMM!!!!!!"

You could have ridden any time since the day it opened, you just chose not to get there early enough to make sure it was a possibility.

The focus on that one ride is bizarre.

 

[morethananyonex]

It is really puzzling and a bit amusing to me that people keep trumpeting "but we FINALLY got to ride TSMM!!!!!!"

You could have ridden any time since the day it opened, you just chose not to get there early enough to make sure it was a possibility.

The focus on that one ride is bizarre.

And they could have rode it stand by any time they decided to, just like people are told to do when FP+ isn't enough.

 

[JimmyV]

If SDMT handles 20,000 rides (just guessing -- I don't have info on the SDMT, but comparing it to BTMRR this seems fair) and there are 60,000 guests, obviously 40,000 guests are out of luck.

But under this approach, the only people who get to ride it are people who pre-booked FPs, so the ride will become what many feared, which is "appointment only" touring. You've handed out 20,000 FP for the full 20,000 ride capacity. That makes my post above even more true. Instead of the FP return line becoming "like the SB line", it will become the only line. At least under FP-, SB guests were assured of a turn on a ride because FP ticket distribution was so inefficient. No one had the 9:10 time slot. And the 9:45-11:00 time slots were never fully used. Now, with people self-populating the reservation book, every minute of every hour will be taken. So I do see a difference between FP-and FP+. Perhaps not so much of a difference at 3:00 p.m. But from 9:00-11:00, I see a major difference. EMH will become mandatory for anyone who cannot get a FP for the ride.

 

[scrooge22702]

Fastpass Plus: The new 'New Coke'

 

[JanaDee]

And they could have rode it stand by any time they decided to, just like people are told to do when FP+ isn't enough.

 

[MrInfinity]

But under this approach, the only people who get to ride it are people who pre-booked FPs, so the ride will become what many feared, which is "appointment only" touring.

Disney has some algorithm. They'll make it 80% FP or whatever proportion they feel is right, but basically yeah, if you don't get a FP to it, your option would be to wait 3 hours in line or not ride it.

You've handed out 20,000 FP for the full 20,000 ride capacity. That makes my post above even more true. Instead of the FP return line becoming "like the SB line", it will become the only line. At least under FP-, SB guests were assured of a turn on a ride because FP ticket distribution was so inefficient. No one had the 9:10 time slot. And the 10:00-11:00 time slots were never fully used. Now, with people self-populating the reservation book, every minute of every hour will be taken. So I do see a difference between FP-and FP+. Perhaps not so much of a difference at 3:00 p.m. But from 9:00-11:00, I see a major difference. EMH will become mandatory for anyone who cannot get a FP for the ride.

I think your reasoning here is right on... you seem to think it out basically like I do, yet you come to the conclusion that it is bad, while I come to the conclusion that it is good. Before 20% (guessing) of the visitors used FP-. So the FP line was short, and most guests stood standby for an hour. Now, say 80% are using FP. That is 4X the number of guests actually using it. So now, you get your 3 rides via FP, then, you have to wait. Before, some ppl weren't waiting at all, going FP all day long, while others waited for every ride for an hour. Now, all guests are riding some quickly (3) and some slowly.

It's just that now *you and I* have to wait, whereas before, *mostly everyone else* did all the waiting while we pulled FPs. Rejoicing at the thought of someone else riding as fast as you used to is not something I expect, yet it is the way it is, and it makes sense for Disney.

I agree w you, that we will get on fewer rides quickly. But that is solely because FP- was so underutilized by most guests. I can look at this system and say objectively, "yes, it is doing what it was supposed to, and is successfully getting most guests on up to 3 rides quickly". The system itself is not failing, it just no longer is our own private skip-all-the-lines-little-known-system. We should be focusing discussions on how to get the most out of it, not fight its very existence. This is so unproductive to keep reiterating how FP+ is bad, failing, a joke, etc. It's not.

 

[mom2rtk]

And they could have rode it stand by any time they decided to, just like people are told to do when FP+ isn't enough.

I hear rope drop would have worked too.

 

[JimmyV]

We should be focusing discussions on how to get the most out of it, not fight its very existence. This is so unproductive to keep reiterating how FP+ is bad, failing, a joke, etc. It's not.

Depends whose ox is getting gored. How does one get the most out of it? Easy. Extend your stay. Do less each day. Don't fight the crowds after they arrive. Use 6 days to do what you used to do in 4. The solution is easy, and it is right in front of our eyes. We both agree that the net effect of FP+ is that both you and I have to wait in lines. There is no getting around the lines. But as we learned from "War Games", the only way to win the game is to not play the game. So don't confront the long lines in the afternoons and get the heck out of Dodge. Come back tomorrow. The guest wins by not waiting in lines and Disney wins by getting more of your time and money. But this doesn't answer the question of whether FP+ is bad or failing. You say that it is not. But for the person who doesn't want to wait in long lines, and doesn't want to spend a whole week at WDW, it is a bad thing and it is failing (them). They are now confronted with two options, neither of which is appealing to them. Put up with lines that they didn't used to suffer through, or spend more days at WDW. For that person, it is a fail, because they have no favored solution to their problem. It is only when one assumes that all guest fall into the category of people who view extending their stay as a good thing, or who view waiting in longer lines than they are use to as an acceptable thing does one get to the conclusion that FP+ is not bad or failing. But I submit that not everyone can be so categorized.

 

[Lyndarella]

I've mentioned this before, but my problem in Feb. was not being limited to 3 FP+ rides, but that my MB would randomly state that I had NO FP+ set. That is why I don't like FP+. They had not yet worked the bugs out of the MB system before adding FP+ to it.

 

[*disgal*]

But then TSMM FPs would run out before the late arrivers make it to DHS.

And that must be avoided at all costs.

It's funny. My family never had a problem getting FPs to TSMM. And we go Spring break/Easter so ya can't say it ain't crowded.

Oh! Wait! Yeah, we got there at park opening and got them. That's right! I guess we live by the old stand by's, the early bird gets the worm and first come, first served. Oh well. It worked for years I guess we will just have to make FP+ work too.

 

[davedmaine]

Disney has disclosed in shareholder meetings that more people are getting Fastpass than ever before. That probably means that a greater percentage of people are now spending less time waiting in line. I would imagine that directly correlates to a larger number of happy guests. Sure, some guests who used to get 8 FPs in a day now only get 3, but there are likely even more guests who finally get a FP and are happier than they used to be. I also know that Disney runs a calculation each day to see how many attractions guests should be able to ride over a small time period during the day. They extend park hours if you can't reasonably hit that number (not sure what it is, I think 8?). This happens fairly often (in fact, this just happened today). So I don't know if I really buy the argument that a lot of people are making on this forum about not being able to ride everything. I think a lot of people are (justifiably) upset that they finally may have to wait in line for something now.

It actually translates to longer wait times at all attractions, including ones that never had linea

 

[davedmaine]

This is not a joke. Add up the number of ridings of each ride per day. You'll see they total approximately 3x the typical number of guests. There is nothing funny or arbitrary about this. 3 is the number each gest can get because that is the capacity of the rides. To give more than 3 to some guests would mandate giving less that 3 to others. Not a joke. Even if you could spend 2 in one park and 1 in another, that would mandate tiering across all parks. So like now, say you could choose 1 of TSMM, RR, Soarin, or TT, and then have the other 2 be any of the tier-2's from either park. Wouldn't help you right? Again no joke here, there is no such thing as having to book so far in advance. Any sense of being compelled to do so is self-inflicted. I am now only 30 days out from my trip and am changing them around freely with no restriction on availability. Pretty much every trip report I read says that even doing so the night before sees no trouble in scoring the desired rides, because the system is engineered such that there are enough for each person to have their allotment. Most guests simply did not use FP-. That's why you and I were able to pull 6 in one park. It's that simple. Do the math on the number of rides. To give some guests 6 FP slots, you have to give others none. How do you choose. If you can convince half of the guests to accept 0 FP, Disney could guarantee you 6. Short of that, it is 3 for everyone. Just do the math. The ride capacities and park attendance approximations are all there.

Your logic is nonsense. All rides are not created equal.

 

[jade1]

It's funny. My family never had a problem getting FPs to TSMM. And we go Spring break/Easter so ya can't say it ain't crowded.

Oh! Wait! Yeah, we got there at park opening and got them. That's right! I guess we live by the old stand by's, the early bird gets the worm and first come, first served. Oh well. It worked for years I guess we will just have to make FP+ work too.

And I have a feeling you still will, 60 days out first come first served.

Although you can select everybodys-the rest in your group can do what they want. You can be the "virtual" runner.

 

[*disgal*]

And I have a feeling you still will, 60 days out first come first served.

Although you can select everybodys-the rest in your group can do what they want. You can be the "virtual" runner.

oh yeah, that would work if I were onsite. True. Offsite this time though. But I'm not complaining. I'm SO thrilled at not having to stand in that kiosk line to set up the FPs that morning at the park!! I'll take what i can get!

 

[MrInfinity]

Your logic is nonsense. All rides are not created equal.

"Your logic is nonsense"

Best well thought-out point I've heard. Ever.

Tho the rides at the MK are quite varied, people's preferences for those rides and ages of kids they're travelling with are also quite varied. Thus you have a bunch of different rides at the MK -- all desirable for different reasons and to different demographics -- and a bunch of different preferences leading to all the rides getting chosen, and none being preferred in disproportionate numbers like at EC/HS.

At EC and HS, that dynamic is not the same. You have basically 2 rides at those parks that are highly demanded, and a slew of others not so.

Thus you have tiering at EC and HS but not at MK.

Disney has demonstrated when the rides are not picked sufficiently varied, they impose forced variety (tiers). At the MK we have yet to see that.

 

[joy13]

Disney has some algorithm. They'll make it 80% FP or whatever proportion they feel is right, but basically yeah, if you don't get a FP to it, your option would be to wait 3 hours in line or not ride it. I think your reasoning here is right on... you seem to think it out basically like I do, yet you come to the conclusion that it is bad, while I come to the conclusion that it is good. Before 20% (guessing) of the visitors used FP-. So the FP line was short, and most guests stood standby for an hour. Now, say 80% are using FP. That is 4X the number of guests actually using it. So now, you get your 3 rides via FP, then, you have to wait. Before, some ppl weren't waiting at all, going FP all day long, while others waited for every ride for an hour. Now, all guests are riding some quickly (3) and some slowly. It's just that now *you and I* have to wait, whereas before, *mostly everyone else* did all the waiting while we pulled FPs. Rejoicing at the thought of someone else riding as fast as you used to is not something I expect, yet it is the way it is, and it makes sense for Disney. I agree w you, that we will get on fewer rides quickly. But that is solely because FP- was so underutilized by most guests. I can look at this system and say objectively, "yes, it is doing what it was supposed to, and is successfully getting most guests on up to 3 rides quickly". The system itself is not failing, it just no longer is our own private skip-all-the-lines-little-known-system. We should be focusing discussions on how to get the most out of it, not fight its very existence. This is so unproductive to keep reiterating how FP+ is bad, failing, a joke, etc. It's not.

I couldn't agree more with what you say here. Would I have preferred the old system to stay - heck yes! But it isn't and I can understand why. So many people didn't know about Fastpasses before. My daughter and I decided to ride Soarin' at park opening last trip and we spent the entire time explaining Fastpass to the people next to us in line. Anyway - your last two sentences hit the nail on the head. We are all Disneyaholics, if anyone can figure out how best to use FP+ it's this group.

 

[Mickey & Minnie Mom]

"Your logic is nonsense"

Best well thought-out point I've heard. Ever.

Tho the rides at the MK are quite varied, people's preferences for those rides and ages of kids they're travelling with are also quite varied. Thus you have a bunch of different rides at the MK -- all desirable for different reasons and to different demographics -- and a bunch of different preferences leading to all the rides getting chosen, and none being preferred in disproportionate numbers like at EC/HS.

At EC and HS, that dynamic is not the same. You have basically 2 rides at those parks that are highly demanded, and a slew of others not so.

Thus you have tiering at EC and HS but not at MK.

Disney has demonstrated when the rides are not picked sufficiently varied, they impose forced variety (tiers). At the MK we have yet to see that.

I must admit I am perplexed by this statement ...

because in riding and checking ride wait times for years now, I am pretty certain I see a trend of longer waits for Space Mt, Big Thunder Mt, Splash Mt (weather dependent), Peter Pan.

Like now, Big Thunder has an approximate wait time of 135 minutes just like Stitch ... oh wait, that one is only 10 minutes.

And no, I have never seen Stitch at 135 minutes. Or 90 minutes. Maybe 30-45 minutes ... at Christmas.

Splash Mt. is 105 minutes, same as the Tea Cups ... no, they're 25 min.

I respect your opinion is different from others, but it just isn't true that the rides at MK have equal preference.

Yes, there are different ages of kids, different likes, but there are clearly those rides that attract people across the board more than others. Yes, MK has more to offer than E/DHS but there are clearly those more in demand than others just the same.