Annual Pass Rumors??

[HopperFan]

Honestly, I think that Disney should consider limiting annual passes to Florida residents. For out-of-state DVC members, they could create a separate type of pass, a special reduced-price pass that is linked to the DVC member length of stay (possibly requiring that they are staying on site & using their DVC points).

Local AP holders and the current out-of-state AP holders definitely tend to have different needs and use their passes very differently. Locals want the freedom to be able to pop into the parks for dinner, or go for walks in the parks, etc. without having to do a lot of pre-planning or securing park reservations months ahead. Guests from out-of-state are more likely going to plan their specific travel dates well in advance and do not typically need access 365 days per year. But those same frequent visitors are looking for reduced cost per day admission if they visit more than 14-21 days per year total (which is why many of them purchased APs in the past).

I see no reason to limit AP to just FL Residents. Those out of state AP holders pay big bucks for their pass then give Disney plenty more in hotels and dining. Remove that option and they'll likely find other vacation destinations with their dollars. Disney doesn't want that.

There are a WHOLE LOT of AP Holders that are "neither" of the above. Florida Resident AP are not just the local Orlando area. Many live all over the state and can not make Disney a day trip BUT they might like the ability to book a long weekend or few day trip (with hotels) with shorter notice. They don't want to just reserve a random park for a dinner and a walk. They are planning a legit trip and want to go to specific parks and the reservation system hurts big time. I would venture there are more in this category than the other two. Many locals probably just have UO and/or SW because those APs are not as restricted or expensive.

 

[HopperFan]

"They have some real problems to deal with in redesigning their AP programs. I really do not know what they will do. I hear they are doing some deep dive surveys and interviews with current AP holders to see what their needs really are."

Yesterday I complete an AP Survey and it took me 20+ minutes to complete. The longest one I've ever done. It was one of the most interesting ones I have taken.

 

[AprilsZoo]

The Only DVC direct perk worth anything is the AP. I do not see them not offering those to DVC members especially since we use them while staying on property. I do see two categories in the future....florida resident pass with different block out periods. Since adding more rides to epcot I doubt they will offer the epcot after 4 pass for FL residents unless they limit to the restaurants there only. DVC AP is a different feature because most dvcers use their AP with their resort stays.

Not sure how they could accomplish this… how can you admit someone to the park, but prevent them from accessing the rides, shows & shops?

 

[Leight19]

They do know it is flawed. They also cannot fix it with just disclosures.
I do not have a clue what comes next.

I have no legal background and maybe doing it now would be seen as admitting fault or something but couldn’t all this be fixed with simple statement for new sales.

Something to effect “subject to park pass availability, Disney maintains authority to restrict park pass availability for annual passes within its discretion to balance attendance against other ticket holders including but not limited to individual day tickets and hotel guests”? I’d argue it would be waste to buy the higher tier passes if they could openly block people out but it would still be better for many then buying multiple sets of tickets.

 

[HopperFan]

I have no legal background and maybe doing it now would be seen as admitting fault or something but couldn’t all this be fixed with simple statement for new sales.

Something to effect “subject to park pass availability, Disney maintains authority to restrict park pass availability for annual passes within its discretion to balance attendance against other ticket holders including but not limited to individual day tickets and hotel guests”? I’d argue it would be waste to buy the higher tier passes if they could openly block people out but it would still be better for many then buying multiple sets of tickets.

Disney has that covered, they do have a top notch legal team. AND if a buyer had read their full terms and conditions they would know that. Sadly we all are guilty of signing and not reading. Just a few terms ...

Reservations are subject to availability

Annual Passes do not guarantee Park admission, especially during high attendance periods.

It may be difficult for Passholders to get park reservations

park reservations are not guaranteed for any specific dates or park, no matter the Pass type

subject to availability and conditions set forth above

Theme park capacity may be limited from time to time due to various reasons including, but not limited to, Acts of God, governmental direction or guidance from health experts.

Restrictions apply including, but not limited to, capacity constraints and other closures.

https://disneyworld.disney.go.com/annual-pass-terms-conditions/

There is a difference between block out dates and no reservation availability, and anyone buying an AP signed that they understood that. A pass gains you entry into the park on a set number of dates IF there is a reservation available.

 

[Leight19]

Disney has that covered, they do have a top notch legal team. AND if a buyer had read their full terms and conditions they would know that. Sadly we all are guilty of signing and not reading. Just a few terms ...

Reservations are subject to availability

Annual Passes do not guarantee Park admission, especially during high attendance periods.

It may be difficult for Passholders to get park reservations

park reservations are not guaranteed for any specific dates or park, no matter the Pass type

subject to availability and conditions set forth above

Theme park capacity may be limited from time to time due to various reasons including, but not limited to, Acts of God, governmental direction or guidance from health experts.

Restrictions apply including, but not limited to, capacity constraints and other closures.

https://disneyworld.disney.go.com/annual-pass-terms-conditions/

There is a difference between block out dates and no reservation availability, and anyone buying an AP signed that they understood that. A pass gains you entry into the park on a set number of dates IF there is a reservation available.

I’m not sure if this language was in place when sales started which led to legal challenge but even this doesn’t make clear explicit scenario could exist where they continue to sell day tickets with annual pass holder blocked out for availability. To me that’s the key difference where Disney wants to be able to sell day tickets while blocking annual passes and only use annual passes to fit into leftover capacity after day tickets stop selling.

 

[savvy101787]

I’m not sure if this language was in place when sales started which led to legal challenge but even this doesn’t make clear explicit scenario could exist where they continue to sell day tickets with annual pass holder blocked out for availability. To me that’s the key difference where Disney wants to be able to sell day tickets while blocking annual passes and only use annual passes to fit into leftover capacity after day tickets stop selling.

I doubt Disney's lawyers would ever recommend they update Ts&Cs to be overly specific. That would potentially expose them to even more legal challenges. The broader the terms are, the more likely they're able to put together a legal defense that defends their actions. And this isn't a knock on Disney, it's what any larger organization would/should do.

 

[HopperFan]

I’m not sure if this language was in place when sales started which led to legal challenge but even this doesn’t make clear explicit scenario could exist where they continue to sell day tickets with annual pass holder blocked out for availability. To me that’s the key difference where Disney wants to be able to sell day tickets while blocking annual passes and only use annual passes to fit into leftover capacity after day tickets stop selling.

This term & condition is from/updated Sept 8, 2021. Why would terms and conditions give you specifics on how they operate? That is unreasonable. They are what they should be, warning you that these conditions apply if you complete the purchase. Buy or not.

It will be interesting to see how the lawsuit pans out in the AP vs Day Ticket availability but it doesn't change that people bought or renewed for annual passes with a limited reservation system in place. Buyers should be more diligent in understanding.

CA folks have had way more issues than FL folks but I don't think anyone knows the algorithm or process to make those decisions. I'm not going to assume their reasoning for how they determine the buckets so we don't know that they are withholding AP and using to fill. I've been able to book months in advance so if that were the case, I shouldn't be allowed to.

Honestly I see no purpose in keeping the system. Yes it helps them schedule CM evenly across parks by forcing guests in to parks they don't want to go to (AK was UNBELIEVABLY packed a couple weeks ago, wasn't until an ex-CM said to me it was because it was likely only reservation available, they'll be gone at 2, and that included us. But with supposed reduced capacity, parks are crowded, standby lines long (some longer than pre-c0vid) and operationally is appears much less in control than it did pre-covid without park reservations.

Disney for sure may have bit off something bigger than they can handle. I just completed a lengthy AP survey and it touched on many aspects of AP perks, Park Reservation System, Genie+ & ILL and how Disney treats us. I even had blocks to write info. They are trying to gather some information from APs for whatever reason.

 

[Leight19]

This term & condition is from/updated Sept 8, 2021. Why would terms and conditions give you specifics on how they operate? That is unreasonable. They are what they should be, warning you that these conditions apply if you complete the purchase. Buy or not.

It will be interesting to see how the lawsuit pans out in the AP vs Day Ticket availability but it doesn't change that people bought or renewed for annual passes with a limited reservation system in place. Buyers should be more diligent in understanding.

CA folks have had way more issues than FL folks but I don't think anyone knows the algorithm or process to make those decisions. I'm not going to assume their reasoning for how they determine the buckets so we don't know that they are withholding AP and using to fill. I've been able to book months in advance so if that were the case, I shouldn't be allowed to.

Honestly I see no purpose in keeping the system. Yes it helps them schedule CM evenly across parks by forcing guests in to parks they don't want to go to (AK was UNBELIEVABLY packed a couple weeks ago, wasn't until an ex-CM said to me it was because it was likely only reservation available, they'll be gone at 2, and that included us. But with supposed reduced capacity, parks are crowded, standby lines long (some longer than pre-c0vid) and operationally is appears much less in control than it did pre-covid without park reservations.

Disney for sure may have bit off something bigger than they can handle. I just completed a lengthy AP survey and it touched on many aspects of AP perks, Park Reservation System, Genie+ & ILL and how Disney treats us. I even had blocks to write info. They are trying to gather some information from APs for whatever reason.

I guess my distinction would be if the lawsuit was complaining they couldn’t get in parks due to capacity restrictions I’d agree they should have understood the terms. However, when Disney was blocking annual passes and still selling day of tickets it was restricting access beyond what could have been reasonably interpreted as capacity constraints by terms of services. I also don’t like the park pass reservation system or restricting park hopping until after 2 but I’m just saying Disney could have the system and continue annual passes having it operate the way they want but they would need to more clearly state that when selling so they don’t run afoul of lawsuits (which so far appears they did even with previous language).

 

[HopperFan]

I guess my distinction would be if the lawsuit was complaining they couldn’t get in parks due to capacity restrictions I’d agree they should have understood the terms. However, when Disney was blocking annual passes and still selling day of tickets it was restricting access beyond what could have been reasonably interpreted as capacity constraints by terms of services. I also don’t like the park pass reservation system or restricting park hopping until after 2 but I’m just saying Disney could have the system and continue annual passes having it operate the way they want but they would need to more clearly state that when selling so they don’t run afoul of lawsuits (which so far appears they did even with previous language).

I think for the context of this discussion, we are under the Disney World forums, not Disneyland. To my knowledge and correct me if I am wrong, there have been no lawsuits filed in Florida. I would have to think that there isn't a strong enough basis (the terms I linked to were FL).

Everything about Disneyland and how they operate is different from FL. Their annual passes are much different. I don't know what the structure is there, but I'm sure the lawsuit will surely have Disney looking at all their options and their wordage if there was any gray. At the worse if it doesn't go well, they could just pro-rate refunds to all the passholders and start over. At least now they have stats on who their best post-covid customers and what they want to offer going forward. Lawsuit could actually backfire.

"Capacity" restrictions is such a gray area. Disney doesn't even disclose attendance numbers. No one outside that tight circle can answer that question. I do not interpret it that as concrete evidence that unfairness is happening. Disney can simply present that we have buckets of tickets, one went empty. AP holders buy a ticket that initially may be very expensive but in the long run can reduce their per day cost extensively, especially for a local. Based on trips taken/scheduled my AP will mean I paid $16 per day. While I hate reservations, I can't complain.

We'll see how the lawsuit pans out but not sure Disney will come out with much harm, they have always had the fine print to back them.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

To my knowledge and correct me if I am wrong, there have been no lawsuits filed in Florida. I would have to think that there isn't a strong enough basis (the terms I linked to were FL).

It's been a bit but I believe back when the lawsuit was filed sometimes after that the discussion came about as far as how far reaching the lawsuit would cover and/or impact. I think the consensus was basically it depending on where in the legal system it ended up. Just because someone didn't file one in FL did not mean FL wouldn't be impacted by it. A lot is about jurisdiction and if a ruling (should that actually happen) would cover the company itself (especially entities using a similar reservation bucket system with various ticket mediums).

Presumably it works both ways too, if the ruling was all is dandy that would also give Disney go ahead to continue on in FL, stands to reason the opposite would also be the case if a ruling was not in favor of Disney, but again jurisdiction and all likely coming into play.

 

[Wiltony]

Not sure how they could accomplish this… how can you admit someone to the park, but prevent them from accessing the rides, shows & shops?

They're already almost doing this via virtual queues, ILL purchases, and D+. One tiny step further and they can just require an additional purchase in order to access the standby line as well.

 

[Ms Bibbidi]

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[Ms Bibbidi]

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[Ms Bibbidi]

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[Ms Bibbidi]

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[Ms Bibbidi]

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[Ms Bibbidi]

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[AprilsZoo]

When Disneyland was new in 1955, they started with a very small admission price and charged separately for the attractions. At one phase, they rated the rides and sold books of A to E tickets. Back then they had ticket booths throughout the park, much like the county fairs and carnivals back then.

Yes, I know they did. And for a time they sold “passport” tickets that allowed unlimited rides, as well as the regular general admission + tickets. I still have a couple full books and several partial books of tickets. And a couple of the wristbands you had to wear if you had the passport admission.

But with the admission structure as it stands, I don’t see how they could exclude people from rides at DL. Maybe after MBs are rolled out {somehow I was thinking of DL when I commented, not sure why … my bad there}
I guess @ WDW it might be easier because of the tapstiles, but how many guests would just get waved thru into standby if it wasn’t a VQ ride, because CMs are used to IT being so glitchy.

 

[dvc lover 1970]

Not sure how they could accomplish this… how can you admit someone to the park, but prevent them from accessing the rides, shows & shops?

Not sure, but I think the epcot after 4 was a win win for disney and the restaurants in epcot. After thinking about this, since guardians fills up with the virtual cues that books at 7 and 1, I assume that shouldn't impact anything.