I like to see posts like roymccoy!!!! Im planning on goimng to DL this Dec. and i find way too much cheerleading going on and like to hear the other opinions!! This gives me a more realistic expectation of what to expect. Disney as a company has decided to make cutbacks at the parks i believe to siphon off money to other parts of the company and takes everybodys good will for granted!!! In a post of the news/rumors board there is a quote from einser himself thta the cutbacks havent affected the guest experience and once attendance returns they will make even more money. And i would agree that the only thing disney understands is money and by people contunially going disney has no incentive to improve. I just hope things improve by time i go but from what ive seen hear and at other web sites i dont see it happening.
And the cuts continue....
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raidermatt
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Again, nothing wrong with a "Disney has gone down the tubes and is getting worse so I am only posting negative things about my trip" post. But when it comes from the same person every couple of months, it makes no sense. Obviously one cannot be that angry if they continue to go back. Also, Roy tells us to speak with our pocketbooks while he continues to go back????
BobO- I agree, a dissenting opinion is good. And a bad trip report from somebody who claims they are never going back can be good, useful information. But when the person continues the same pattern, says they are through, then goes back anyway, it starts sounding like the Boy who Cried Wolf. A negative viewpoint is only useful if it is honest and balanced. Certainly Roy's reports cannot be both. For if they are honest, he would not return for quite some time.
For the record, I am not thrilled anytime something goes away. But it would be dishonest to advise people to not attend the parks because of what has gone away. If one truly loves attractions like Peter Pan, Dumbo, Space Mountain, Splash Mountain, Pirates of the Caribbean, Haunted Mansion, Mr. Toad, Big Thunder Mountain, DL Railroad, Indiana Jones, Tiki Room, Mr. Lincoln, Matterhorn, Toontown, Star Tours, Believe Firworks, etc, etc, etc, then their is still plenty of reason to go. Nowhere else can one find this collection of family entertainment. So how can we honestly advise people that even though they may love these attractions, they should go to Knott's Berry Farm instead?
It does no good to tell Disney they will lose your money, then turn around and walk into the park. This is merely an empty threat, and Disney will realize that because attendance will not be affected. If you want to speak with your pocketbook, you have to actually stay away. Otherwise, a rational letter telling Disney that you are a loyal customer who still loves the parks, but is disappointed with some specific changes will have a much greater impact.
BobO- I agree, a dissenting opinion is good. And a bad trip report from somebody who claims they are never going back can be good, useful information. But when the person continues the same pattern, says they are through, then goes back anyway, it starts sounding like the Boy who Cried Wolf. A negative viewpoint is only useful if it is honest and balanced. Certainly Roy's reports cannot be both. For if they are honest, he would not return for quite some time.
For the record, I am not thrilled anytime something goes away. But it would be dishonest to advise people to not attend the parks because of what has gone away. If one truly loves attractions like Peter Pan, Dumbo, Space Mountain, Splash Mountain, Pirates of the Caribbean, Haunted Mansion, Mr. Toad, Big Thunder Mountain, DL Railroad, Indiana Jones, Tiki Room, Mr. Lincoln, Matterhorn, Toontown, Star Tours, Believe Firworks, etc, etc, etc, then their is still plenty of reason to go. Nowhere else can one find this collection of family entertainment. So how can we honestly advise people that even though they may love these attractions, they should go to Knott's Berry Farm instead?
It does no good to tell Disney they will lose your money, then turn around and walk into the park. This is merely an empty threat, and Disney will realize that because attendance will not be affected. If you want to speak with your pocketbook, you have to actually stay away. Otherwise, a rational letter telling Disney that you are a loyal customer who still loves the parks, but is disappointed with some specific changes will have a much greater impact.
Raidermatt....I am an annual passholder and we go to the parks quite a bit. My point is that we are seeing a recent and accelerated decline in services and attractions and I'm afraid that this may no just be "economic circumstances" alone. I think that the brass at Disney right now is slowly and methodically giving us less for our money. I think that they feel that DL has too much in it for $43. I think that they think that Walt was a little too generous with his first park. You can look at DCA to see what Eisney and company think $43 buys you today. I just want to point out that we may be being duped. We've lost WAY to many rides, restaurants and "lands" the last few years and almost all of the promised and rumored replacements have not come to pass. Where is Pooh? Where is the 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea ride? Where are all the things that were promised at the time of closing that never came to pass. I maintain that we need to be vocal to Disney about these things. We can't just sit here and defend them all the time. They probably chuckle at us a little when we do that.
Roy
Why did you jump all over BobO? Just because he thought my posts were helpful? I am going to hazard a guess that there are more than a few people who welcome a dissenting opinion now and then.
Roy
Why did you jump all over BobO? Just because he thought my posts were helpful? I am going to hazard a guess that there are more than a few people who welcome a dissenting opinion now and then.
I do hope that you are writing your comments to the Walt Disney Company and not just on these boards. I think that your written comments to the company would carry more weight than letting us know. I appreciate hearing your comments, but Disney might do something if they get enough written comments.
Floydian
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The problem as I see it lies more in the fact that Disney is under such scrutiny. This doesn't condone their decisions, or make them more acceptable to me. But it's far from uncommon in the world of business.
For example, how many manufacturers have offered "new and improved laundry detergent" at the "same low price"? All the while, the only things different are the "new and improved" tag on the box, and the fact that the box now contains LESS of the exact same product than it used to, at the "same low price". So you're getting less of the same product for the same money.
That seems to be the same stunt that Disney is trying to pull. However, most people don't watch their everyday soap products so closely. But Disney? Well, look around, that's kind of why we're all here, right?
So it's just Disney trying to pull the same stunt that so many other businesses do, without the brainpower to realize that they have a following, and fans, and people to call them on their bogus claims and marketing hype.
I have always, and will always, continue to appreciate the negative comments just as much as the positive. I may not like to know that bad things are happening, but it's better than not knowing anything at all.
PEACE!
For example, how many manufacturers have offered "new and improved laundry detergent" at the "same low price"? All the while, the only things different are the "new and improved" tag on the box, and the fact that the box now contains LESS of the exact same product than it used to, at the "same low price". So you're getting less of the same product for the same money.
That seems to be the same stunt that Disney is trying to pull. However, most people don't watch their everyday soap products so closely. But Disney? Well, look around, that's kind of why we're all here, right?
So it's just Disney trying to pull the same stunt that so many other businesses do, without the brainpower to realize that they have a following, and fans, and people to call them on their bogus claims and marketing hype.
I have always, and will always, continue to appreciate the negative comments just as much as the positive. I may not like to know that bad things are happening, but it's better than not knowing anything at all.
PEACE!
Wouldnt it be nice for a change for disney to offer the guests something extra to induce us to come back more often rather than just cut backs things??? Add things to a park to induce more return visits. I know of a small park in Indiana-Holiday World- that to get guests to return more often offers their patrons free parking, free soda and now this year free sun block. I dont expect disney to do the same but wouldnt it be nice for them to give something back to the customer to get us to return, some type of program to give benefits to loyal customers who return often. Most business's do that but i dont see disney doing it, instead they rely on the goodwill they have developed over the years.
I think maybe Disney might have had it a little too easy for awhile and they started thinking that we would buy ANYTHING!
I feel like maybe they're being forced to reconsider their present strategy and MAYBE they are realizing that they can't ride the Disney name forever without substance behind it. I hope they realize that more budget cuts aren't the way to go. If they want to return to the glory days, they are going to have to spend MORE, not less on the parks. I remember when Eisner came in, Disney was in bad shape. They were thinking of closing a day or two a week, the rides were in disrepair and there wasn't a whole lot going on. They looked like a prime takeover target because their stock was so low. Eisner could have done one of two things...he could have tried to save even more money and make it look like Disney was making more profits than it was OR he could have spent a lot of money on rebuilding the infrastructure of the parks and the company, bringing in more customers and generating more money. Both directions would have probably bumped the stock price up, but only one would put the company on the right track for years to come. Well, here we are again. Disney's stock price is low, there is speculation that it might be a takeover target and there is talk of closing DCA a day or two a week. Just like 20 years ago, it's time to decide which direction to go. They could cut costs and services and make the profits look artificially higher (just as they could have 20 years ago) or they could spend a whole lot of money rebuilding the infrastructure of the parks and the company. This time it seems that they are going to cut costs and services. Doesn't make any sense.
Roy
I feel like maybe they're being forced to reconsider their present strategy and MAYBE they are realizing that they can't ride the Disney name forever without substance behind it. I hope they realize that more budget cuts aren't the way to go. If they want to return to the glory days, they are going to have to spend MORE, not less on the parks. I remember when Eisner came in, Disney was in bad shape. They were thinking of closing a day or two a week, the rides were in disrepair and there wasn't a whole lot going on. They looked like a prime takeover target because their stock was so low. Eisner could have done one of two things...he could have tried to save even more money and make it look like Disney was making more profits than it was OR he could have spent a lot of money on rebuilding the infrastructure of the parks and the company, bringing in more customers and generating more money. Both directions would have probably bumped the stock price up, but only one would put the company on the right track for years to come. Well, here we are again. Disney's stock price is low, there is speculation that it might be a takeover target and there is talk of closing DCA a day or two a week. Just like 20 years ago, it's time to decide which direction to go. They could cut costs and services and make the profits look artificially higher (just as they could have 20 years ago) or they could spend a whole lot of money rebuilding the infrastructure of the parks and the company. This time it seems that they are going to cut costs and services. Doesn't make any sense.
Roy
Hello Bob O,
Well in the1994 recession thats exactly what WDW did! They made value meals at all the counter service and early bird specials in the sit downs. Held the prices on everything else, and cut no services or shows (that I recall). I think the reasoning was to keep the resorts full and make a little less at the parks.
I've read a lot boards here and posted my opinions too. I find that 'some' people get a little defensive about Disney criticism. But freedom of speech is importants and rebuttals are fine by me.
With that said, I enjoy every Disney vacation. Some are better than others. BUT, Disney should be very careful. I've seen the competition (BG, SW, USO, USIOA) and they are getting better every day. IOA is my personal favorite, and it opened that way. I can't say the same for AK, and I've read the CA is a similar disappointment. Why can't Disney open a park that is ready to enjoy?
Marty
mmocken Disney did open a park ready to go from day one, but the bad news its in Japan-Toyoko DinseySea. And i would agree that Universal/IOA are catching up to disney and have surpassed disney in Thrill Rides with Hulk/Spiderman?Dueling Dragons. And i also agree with Busch Gardens Williamsburg i was their last year and its a great park.
Disney and Eisner should take a lesson from Continental Airlines. After Sept. 11, all the airlines faced major losses, requested a received a federal bailout and most responded with decrease service, poor customer service, limited meals and snacks, etc. Most, except for Continental. They made their customer service more consumer friendly, dropped many of the restrictions and Saturday night stay overs, instead of cutting back on meal service, they improved them. As a result, the airline is bouncing back and getting stars for great service. When faced with recesssion, don't curl up in a ball and withdraw, grab opportunity by the hand, suck it up and plan to come out on top!
No one is asking for a full park with nothing but thrill rides but you should keep up to date with your competition and when Universal has a ride like Spiderman that is advanced in technology and can be ridden by almost the whole family(last time we went my 4yoa daugher rode it) disney should do something in their parks to compete. And the thing to remember is that a lot of teenagers who like thrill rides will be adults and if they are turned off by disney because they find it boring that doesnt bode well for the future. I know my kids watch nick more than the disney channel and if you want their future business you have to keep them engaged with new attractions or rides/shows based on new movies which Universal is doing and disney isnt. The kids of today may not be as forgiving towards disney as their parents are now. Its a tougher entertainment market with alot more choices out there. I know i like wdw more than my kids do who would perfer to spend more time at Universal and identify more with things like MIB/Back to the Future/T2/Twister etc than some of the older wdw attractions which have been their for a long time and are old to them. I just think disney is resting to much on its laurels and not doing enough to impove their product and freshen it up with stuff that the younger generation would like, maybe something based on a popular movie like Armageddon. Rather than disney keeping the dated star tours around and being too cheap to update it with a new movie that was OK by George Lucas but disney was too cheap to implemement as a example.
raidermatt
Be water, my friend.
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Six Flags passed Disney up in thrill rides decades ago. They have never made an attempt to keep up with the Jones's when it comes to thrill rides. That's not to say they won't take the plunge one day, but if they are going to truly attempt to keep up, it will be through a separate park.
Universal Florida has done an admirable job of trying to blend theming with thrills, but there are simply too many things that a family with sub-40" children cannot do. Yes, they are gaining customers and moving towards being a stand-alone resort, but through all of their gains, WDW has continued to grow. There is some overlap in their markets, but not enough to force Disney to start building monster coasters. Disney does need to continue focusing on E-ticket attractions, but they cannot lose what makes them stand out.
Yes, a new attraction was supposed to go in the 20k Lagoon, but that was before Disney realized how expensive it was going to be just to get the water out. They started draining one of them (DL or WDW) and the walls started crumbling. Where is Pooh? Well, CBJ has only been closed for 5 months. Disney definitely wants Pooh built because they are trying to get traffic in that area of the park that CBJ never delivered. That's why they are putting it there and not in Fantasyland. The only thing I can see de-railing Pooh is the current lawsuit over rights.
I simply don't agree with the notion that Disney believes there is "too much to do" in DL, and therefore also in MK, Epcot, Disney Studios, etc. Am I in complete agreement with all of their decisions and capital spending? No, but Roy, you have canceled a trip to WDW and told people to stay away from the DL Resort, yet you have an annual pass??? You want improvements and changes? Fine, call out for them. But how can you tell people to stay away while you use your annual pass? This makes no sense, unless of course you are not going to renew your pass and will stay away yourself...
Once again, dissenting opinions are fine, but they still need to be honest and balanced if you want them taken seriously.
As for BobO, I agreed with him that dissenting opinions are helpful, but was just pointing out that yours are contradictory, and while still welcome in an open forum, cannot truly be helpful.
Dawn- The cuts that Disney has made mostly surround park hours and the frequency of some shows/entertainment, things like that. By the vast majority of first hand accounts they are still providing 1st rate customer service to their guests. They have not slashed prices, but this is part of keeping the guest experience consistent. Cheaper prices tranlate to decreased profit margins per guest, and if that happens, there are only two choices: Allow profits to fall further, or decrease the services offered PER GUEST.
Cutting hours does not decrease the amount Disney spends per guest, provided there are fewer guests, and of course, we know there are fewer guests right now. My point is not that Continental is wrong, only that what Disney is doing in response to the recession is more in line with Continental than you realize. Disney may have cut hours in response to fewer guests, but this is equivalent to cutting flights, which I'm sure Continental did do, if only until customers return. But we have read accounts of customers walking into Universal Florida at opening and finding many rides closed until 11am or even Noon. Same with restaurants. Disney does not do this. Whatever they will have open for the day is open when the gates open. The vast majority of trip reports talk of nothing other than friendly and pleasant CMs. A few exceptions, sure, but they are few and far between.
Universal Florida has done an admirable job of trying to blend theming with thrills, but there are simply too many things that a family with sub-40" children cannot do. Yes, they are gaining customers and moving towards being a stand-alone resort, but through all of their gains, WDW has continued to grow. There is some overlap in their markets, but not enough to force Disney to start building monster coasters. Disney does need to continue focusing on E-ticket attractions, but they cannot lose what makes them stand out.
Yes, a new attraction was supposed to go in the 20k Lagoon, but that was before Disney realized how expensive it was going to be just to get the water out. They started draining one of them (DL or WDW) and the walls started crumbling. Where is Pooh? Well, CBJ has only been closed for 5 months. Disney definitely wants Pooh built because they are trying to get traffic in that area of the park that CBJ never delivered. That's why they are putting it there and not in Fantasyland. The only thing I can see de-railing Pooh is the current lawsuit over rights.
I simply don't agree with the notion that Disney believes there is "too much to do" in DL, and therefore also in MK, Epcot, Disney Studios, etc. Am I in complete agreement with all of their decisions and capital spending? No, but Roy, you have canceled a trip to WDW and told people to stay away from the DL Resort, yet you have an annual pass??? You want improvements and changes? Fine, call out for them. But how can you tell people to stay away while you use your annual pass? This makes no sense, unless of course you are not going to renew your pass and will stay away yourself...
Once again, dissenting opinions are fine, but they still need to be honest and balanced if you want them taken seriously.
As for BobO, I agreed with him that dissenting opinions are helpful, but was just pointing out that yours are contradictory, and while still welcome in an open forum, cannot truly be helpful.
Dawn- The cuts that Disney has made mostly surround park hours and the frequency of some shows/entertainment, things like that. By the vast majority of first hand accounts they are still providing 1st rate customer service to their guests. They have not slashed prices, but this is part of keeping the guest experience consistent. Cheaper prices tranlate to decreased profit margins per guest, and if that happens, there are only two choices: Allow profits to fall further, or decrease the services offered PER GUEST.
Cutting hours does not decrease the amount Disney spends per guest, provided there are fewer guests, and of course, we know there are fewer guests right now. My point is not that Continental is wrong, only that what Disney is doing in response to the recession is more in line with Continental than you realize. Disney may have cut hours in response to fewer guests, but this is equivalent to cutting flights, which I'm sure Continental did do, if only until customers return. But we have read accounts of customers walking into Universal Florida at opening and finding many rides closed until 11am or even Noon. Same with restaurants. Disney does not do this. Whatever they will have open for the day is open when the gates open. The vast majority of trip reports talk of nothing other than friendly and pleasant CMs. A few exceptions, sure, but they are few and far between.
I just came back from DL/DCA and indeed early entry was gone. Early entry at DL only opened certain attractions anyway. They provided something nicer anyway...they opened up DL 1 hour earlier for all! DL and DCA also have much more character interaction now. The characters are so abundant that I started thinking it was a conspiracy to get you to by more film and batteries!
The reports of filthy bathrooms, nonworking water fountains, inattentive staff (IMHO) were just false. The restraunts and shops were well staffed and service was polite and prompt.
The usual refurbishment was occuring (I go off season alot)
The attendence at DCA was very light, but it is a work in progress just like DL was and IS. The addition of TOT (knock on wood)will be a plus for that park.
They are now offering AP (hopper) for $199 for the supreme pass (park hopper - no blackouts/free parking) and the associated discounts were awesome! They had a $149 pass that had I think 40 blackout days.
Sure Disney management needs to watch out - times are tough - and it is fun to back seat drive their management style.....but only time will tell whether they chose wisely or not.
But for now....we are still having a kicka$$ time!
The reports of filthy bathrooms, nonworking water fountains, inattentive staff (IMHO) were just false. The restraunts and shops were well staffed and service was polite and prompt.
The usual refurbishment was occuring (I go off season alot)
The attendence at DCA was very light, but it is a work in progress just like DL was and IS. The addition of TOT (knock on wood)will be a plus for that park.
They are now offering AP (hopper) for $199 for the supreme pass (park hopper - no blackouts/free parking) and the associated discounts were awesome! They had a $149 pass that had I think 40 blackout days.
Sure Disney management needs to watch out - times are tough - and it is fun to back seat drive their management style.....but only time will tell whether they chose wisely or not.
But for now....we are still having a kicka$$ time!
Raidermatt What do you call TOT, is that not a thrill ride??? That is a example of disney at its best with a thrilling ride and great theming. The plunge in the dark would be considered a thrill ride i would think. I havent been on Indy so i cant comment if it would be considered a thrill ride but considering the lawsuits due to alleged injuries it could be considered a thrill ride.
y2l- I dont like the addition of TOT at DL. I dont like the idea of making each parks/resorts the same by cloning rides. I would perfer they put a unique attraction rather than do it on the cheap and just copy something. Both places have too much overlap as far as im concerned and if you just keep copying things their may be less incentive for a frequent wdw vistor to come out to CA.
y2l- I dont like the addition of TOT at DL. I dont like the idea of making each parks/resorts the same by cloning rides. I would perfer they put a unique attraction rather than do it on the cheap and just copy something. Both places have too much overlap as far as im concerned and if you just keep copying things their may be less incentive for a frequent wdw vistor to come out to CA.
Safari Steve
D23 Expo Here I Come!!!
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On The Nose!
This is why I hope we don't ever get Indiana Jones Adventure. I think that we're going to see less cloning in the future (knock on wood), as Al Weiss has said a couple of times in the last few months that he believes the 'Destination Resorts' need to be even more distinctive to keep attracting guests.
Actually if DL got TOT that would be bad. But I think it is DCA which is fine by me
If an E ticket ride is immensely popular and the public is clammoring for it (which apparently they are) I think it is ok. First we slam Disney for mishandling everything and not giving the public what they want.....now they hand us TOT (which many have been begging for) and we say they are not innovative enough.
(For the record I would love to see new innovative rides)
If an E ticket ride is immensely popular and the public is clammoring for it (which apparently they are) I think it is ok. First we slam Disney for mishandling everything and not giving the public what they want.....now they hand us TOT (which many have been begging for) and we say they are not innovative enough.
(For the record I would love to see new innovative rides)
But they're doing it again! They decided that they would clone a ride from WDW to help DCA out. I'm not a fan of cloning rides, but with Disney these days anything is better than nothing. Well, here comes that same "cut corners" mentality that ruined DCA in the beginning. ToT is NOT going to have any of the pre-drop rooms that made the tower more of a ride and not just a "dropper". You're going to get in the elevator and drop. When I rode ToT in WDW, I thought it was neat the way Disney was able to put in a thrill ride but still make it look like a Disney ride with the little story and visuals that you got to see before you dropped. Now you're going to just drop. Why can't they get anything right at DCA? If ToT is just another "go up and come down ride" (they've already got the Bomber over in Paradise Pier) I don't see how that's going to help all that much. If they're going to clone rides they should at LEAST clone the whole ride. Cutting corners didn't work with the original DCA. On the contrary, it is what has forced them to make these changes so rapidly. Why would anyone think that it will work now?
Roy
Roy
raidermatt
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How ToT will be built in DCA has not even been announced, and the only info is based on rumors. If we want to crucify them for doing it cheap, let's wait until we at least see the plans or hear an official description.
Before denouncing cloning, let's remember that MK is essentially a clone of DL. Were not talking about one ride, we're talking about the layout and dozens of attractions. So putting a few clones in the parks now is far from a departure from the Disney way.
That said, sure, I'd like to see every ride be a new one, but that's because I am lucky enough to be able to visit both DLResort and WDW on a somewhat regular basis. We have to remember that there a large numbers of people who mainly, or even exclusively visit one site or the other. If Disney has a huge hit at one site, it really does make sense to at least sometimes put it in the other site. The only suggestion I would have would be to theme them differently.
BobO- As a reference, Indy is very similar to Dinosaur. The theme is very different of course, but if you closed your eyes, I'm honestly not sure you would know the difference. Actually, this is an example of what I was talking about above, cloning a ride, but with a different theme.
You're right that in some ways, ToT, Indy, etc are no different than building a roller coaster. But to a lot of people, it is different. Roller coasters are very intimidating visually. The height, speed and motion are just too much for some people, so they have sworn them off. At least some of these people however, will try rides like Dinosaur and Indy, and even a tamer coaster, like the Matterhorn and Space Mountain. So Disney can effectively use some of these rides, while maintaining their family atmosphere. But its still a delicate balance, and that's why I think that Disney needs to maintain its focus and continue making E-ticket attractions that "wow" us, and can still be enjoyed by our beloved wee-folk and weak of stomach spouses...
Before denouncing cloning, let's remember that MK is essentially a clone of DL. Were not talking about one ride, we're talking about the layout and dozens of attractions. So putting a few clones in the parks now is far from a departure from the Disney way.
That said, sure, I'd like to see every ride be a new one, but that's because I am lucky enough to be able to visit both DLResort and WDW on a somewhat regular basis. We have to remember that there a large numbers of people who mainly, or even exclusively visit one site or the other. If Disney has a huge hit at one site, it really does make sense to at least sometimes put it in the other site. The only suggestion I would have would be to theme them differently.
BobO- As a reference, Indy is very similar to Dinosaur. The theme is very different of course, but if you closed your eyes, I'm honestly not sure you would know the difference. Actually, this is an example of what I was talking about above, cloning a ride, but with a different theme.
You're right that in some ways, ToT, Indy, etc are no different than building a roller coaster. But to a lot of people, it is different. Roller coasters are very intimidating visually. The height, speed and motion are just too much for some people, so they have sworn them off. At least some of these people however, will try rides like Dinosaur and Indy, and even a tamer coaster, like the Matterhorn and Space Mountain. So Disney can effectively use some of these rides, while maintaining their family atmosphere. But its still a delicate balance, and that's why I think that Disney needs to maintain its focus and continue making E-ticket attractions that "wow" us, and can still be enjoyed by our beloved wee-folk and weak of stomach spouses...
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