An Inconvenient Truth...

Not by increasing taxes,but the government could and should offer tax breaks to individuals and companies. If it was good business sense for companies to use solar power or purchase hybrid fleet vehicles you bet they'd do it.

That's the thing, in a lot of cases, such as hybrid cars, the cost analysis doesn't make it a wise choice. If you wanted to by a hybrid car for making a point to be "green", then go for it. If you're doing it thinking your saving money, think again. This was discussed on the DIS some time back and I don't think things have changed in the marketplace all that much since. Since a hybrid car costs significantly more upfront than it's gas counterpart, you'd have to keep the hybrid for something like 10 years just to break even (average usage).
 
That's the thing, in a lot of cases, such as hybrid cars, the cost analysis doesn't make it a wise choice. If you wanted to by a hybrid car for making a point to be "green", then go for it. If you're doing it thinking your saving money, think again. This was discussed on the DIS some time back and I don't think things have changed in the marketplace all that much since. Since a hybrid car costs significantly more upfront than it's gas counterpart, you'd have to keep the hybrid for something like 10 years just to break even (average usage).

That's one reason why I didn't get one. I had the opportunity to get the hybrid Highlander or the 4-Runner and I chose the 4-Runner. First because I'd always wanted one, but secondly because I had read so much about hybrids really not being the savings that they were cracked up to be.

However, if I owned a limo company and the feds or the state govt was willing to offer me a decent tax rebate of some kind, I'd buy hybrids.
 
Yet on the other hand, Denver is buried in snow. This is an El Nino year, we have had them before. Don't get too used to the spring weather. Nature has a way of evening itself out.

Exactly.
 
Huh? No it doesn't. It encourages choice. Some seem more than willing to place limits (via government interference) on those choice and/or penalize those choices (again via government interference).

You don't think the current market economy encourages increased consumption? New product markets are built all the time, and it's not always about replacing something we already own.

What I find interesting is how many people in today's political climate equate ideals of democracy to the consumer marketplace. As if the "choice" of automobiles is the height of participation as American citizens.

If you are so pro-"choice" (economically speaking), then pay attention to the choices American consumers are making in the automotive market this year. Sales of hybrid and small cars are up and SUVs are down, something that it putting a pinch on the American automotive industry. Many American consumers are saying through their purchases that they don't want to be part of the problem; yes, they may spend more on a hybrid, but they feel better making a smaller eco-footprint. Right now, they may be breaking even economically, but maybe in a year gas prices will go up even more.

Again, more and more people are realizing that going green isn't just about ideals, but makes good business sense. Minimize resources, maximize profits.
 

Discussions on global warming are always ridiculous. The Earth has been around for how many millions of years? We have been recording weather for about 150. Let's see..... we're going to base what "should be" on a miniscule blip of time (comparitively) when it's obvious the world has not always been this way. Continents used to be connected. Something happened to separate them. How much of the world was covered with ice? Is that how it's "supposed" to be? Of course not. The Earth is a living planet. She changes. We are merely gnats on this planet. Eventually the planet will become inhospitable for humans. Ok. That's how it goes. The difference is, we're too egotistical to accept that WE ARE NOT IN CHARGE.

Excellent post, very well said. Too bad I had to read through 9 pages of discussion of SUV's and computer usage to get to something intelligent.
 
But millions and millions of years ago there were far more active volcanoes spewing substantially more crap into the air than man has in the last 150.

I'm not saying we shouldn't TRY to be more green but there's a fine balance between being green and moving forward with progress. Sure, it would be nice if everything ran on solar, wind and water power. Maybe someday.

Depends on your definition of progress.

One standard of progress would be American corporations capitalizing on new, greener technology and retooling their industry practices, something that may cost some $$$ in the short-term, but will pay off with bigger savings over time.

Conservative forces keep saying "someday...someday," but the technology exists today. All that is needed is the political will and motivation to move forward.
 
Sounds like you want to legislate morality. The reason gas is so high in Europe is the taxes. When a government wants to "regulate" something, they usually end up taxing it up the wazoo.

No thanks, I'll leave legislating morality to others. However, if Americans started paying a similar rate to what Europe pays, our earth would certainly benefit....and, our earth needs to benefit for awhile. I was amazed how happy people in Europe are to drive small cars, take public transportation, and "do their part". Global warming was on the lips of nearly everyone we spoke to in France, and Germany.

I think many Americans (obviously not a few posters here) would LOVE to find ways to be more green. We bought our compact flourescents a year ago, at $5 per bulb...I noticed they are down to around $2 per bulb now. Why? The more people buy them, the cheaper they will get. The more we all try to go green, the cheaper and easier it will get as well. A year ago we were car shopping for dh's commuter car. We TRIED to get our hands on a Prius, but they all had waitlists longer than a year. So, we looked up fuel efficiency and emissions, and went with a Civic hatchback. It wasn't ideal, but was the best we could do. There are some businessmen who are desperately trying to bring Chinese hybrids into the US and sell them at reasonable rates to take some of the demand off the Prius, and encourage US manufacturers to begin producing small hybrids as well. So far, Congress has promised these cars would only enter the US with huge tariffs...they do not want the market opened up to Chinese car imports (sorry, I don't have the link to that article. I saw it a year ago when we were looking for green companies to invest in). However, I did find this article about the EU's gas situation. At the bottom, you will find fuel efficiency ratings for many of the industrialized nations. You will notice that this graph shows what I was speaking of earlier. We have the lowest fuel efficiency ratings, and at our toughest (CA), we will be where China is now in 2016. It makes no sense....we can do so much better.


http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0826/p01s03-woeu.html
 
/
That's the thing, in a lot of cases, such as hybrid cars, the cost analysis doesn't make it a wise choice. If you wanted to by a hybrid car for making a point to be "green", then go for it. If you're doing it thinking your saving money, think again. This was discussed on the DIS some time back and I don't think things have changed in the marketplace all that much since. Since a hybrid car costs significantly more upfront than it's gas counterpart, you'd have to keep the hybrid for something like 10 years just to break even (average usage).

You're right, but just like lightbulbs...that will change if people express hybrids as a priority. The reason Prius' are so expensive is because many Toyota dealers are selling them to the highest bidder (often $7K over sticker). Since Prius is the ONLY small-ish hybrid around, we have very little choice. Obviously some Americans are trying to make changes....that is my glimmer of hope.
 
No thanks, I'll leave legislating morality to others. However, if Americans started paying a similar rate to what Europe pays, our earth would certainly benefit....and, our earth needs to benefit for awhile. I was amazed how happy people in Europe are to drive small cars, take public transportation, and "do their part". Global warming was on the lips of nearly everyone we spoke to in France, and Germany.

I think many Americans (obviously not a few posters here) would LOVE to find ways to be more green. We bought our compact flourescents a year ago, at $5 per bulb...I noticed they are down to around $2 per bulb now. Why? The more people buy them, the cheaper they will get. The more we all try to go green, the cheaper and easier it will get as well. A year ago we were car shopping for dh's commuter car. We TRIED to get our hands on a Prius, but they all had waitlists longer than a year. So, we looked up fuel efficiency and emissions, and went with a Civic hatchback. It wasn't ideal, but was the best we could do. There are some businessmen who are desperately trying to bring Chinese hybrids into the US and sell them at reasonable rates to take some of the demand off the Prius, and encourage US manufacturers to begin producing small hybrids as well. So far, Congress has promised these cars would only enter the US with huge tariffs...they do not want the market opened up to Chinese car imports (sorry, I don't have the link to that article. I saw it a year ago when we were looking for green companies to invest in). However, I did find this article about the EU's gas situation. At the bottom, you will find fuel efficiency ratings for many of the industrialized nations. You will notice that this graph shows what I was speaking of earlier. We have the lowest fuel efficiency ratings, and at our toughest (CA), we will be where China is now in 2016. It makes no sense....we can do so much better.


http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0826/p01s03-woeu.html

I don't think you'll ever get Americans to give up our big car addiction long term. After the gas crisis in the 70's, everyone ran out and bought tiny little cars, and as soon as the crisis was over-the Mini-Van craze began. Instead of fighting the tendency, make more fuel efficient or hybrid trucks, SUV's and Mini-Vans!
 
OK, here is the concern: humans are based in the NOW. We are trained that way. They tell us to "embrace the moment" from childhood. We are unable to look forward, to trust in evidence, when it means harm for us. How many people do we know who don't go to the doctor because they'd rather not face the fact they might be sick? Who never wear sunscreen even thoguh evidence points to sun exposure as a leading cause of skin cancer? Or smoke even thgouh smoking is the leading cause of lung cancer? Or eat fat & cholesterol laden foods even though heart disease is a leading cause of death? I'm in audiology and it's nearly impossible to encourage anyone to turn their music down or wear hearing protection in noisy environments, even though evidence proves noise exposure WILL lead to at least a small degree of hearing loss, because people don't want to give up even a degree of the lifestyle they enjoy. They are stuck in their ways.
I will admit I've been self centered a majority of my life. It wasn't until the past three years or so I really started to look at the big picture, and after seeing this film, we are going to making bigger changes in our household. We are going to buy units of Green Power, start recyling regularly, use flourescent bulbs, turn down our heat... little things. I'm in graduate school, so I can't afford much, but I'll do what i can.
Someone said earlier that millions of years ago HUGE climate changes happened naturally. Well, sure, but not caused by one species! If you really watched the movie, you'll remember that in 650,000 years we are seeing IMMENSELY higher levels of CO2 than ever before. Also, millions of years ago, those NATURAL changes did now lead to potential death of millions or even billions of HUMANS. Don't you even want to try to think you can make a difference? That taking steps in your home, community, state, nation can make changes for the whole?
If we all assume "why should I make a change? No one else is!", then no one will try. So, try! I am 24 years old. I can't wait to get out of school and start my own family. But it hurts me to think that even 4 years from now, we may live in a world that it would be selfish to bring a child into, and it kills me that we are almost guaranteeing a terrible or nonexistent future for my grandchildren. Lets hope that we don't all go the way of the polar bear or the great barrier reef, things that came long before humans as we now know them that may be gone in less than 30 years due to our error.
 
First , it is important to know that there is not one anti-climate change scientist for every pro-climate-change scientists. The vast majority of scientists agree that climate change is real and that the human component of it is very important. Those that oppose this theory are a fringe minority , but that get a lot of air-time because some people have interest in having these ideas broadcast ( think car and petrol companies).

One of the top Nasa climate scientist was censored by the US governement because his findings were going against governement policies.
(http://www.commondreams.org/headlines06/0129-01.htm)

A thing that I find maddening is the assomtion that , because we care about climate change, we should turn into monks. It is not the case. We can choose those famous light bulbs , drive a bit more , buy local , lower our water heater, heat our houses by rooms , not the whole place at once, use the dishwasher when it is full , wash clothes in cold water, use public transport when we can, spend more time with friends and family instead of hours in front of the TV. There are things we all can easely do daily with minimum effort.

If we say that, since we dont care how much gas costs , big cars and SUV that do fufill certain consommption standards should be taxed accordinly , and there gas should be taxed accordingly as well ( since they dont care how much it costs)

Every year, in Montreal , there is a day called " A day without my car", where citizens are encouraged to not use there cars to come downtown and the whole downtown core of the city is closed to traffic. Well , the pollution levels are spectacularly lower on this day, so it does make a difference.

Lastly , pollution has no redeeming qualities whatsoever. Even if you dont believe in climate change , pollution is bad. A few months ago , here on the dis , there was this discussion about seal hunting in Canada , and how cruel it was. When there will ne ice left for the seals to hide from there water predators , there wont be any cute little baby seals. It cruelty , at a slower pace !
 
Here is for those who say: why should we be carefull when other countries dont: the US is the biggest co2 polluters by quantity and per capitaT at 5.3 tons per capita. The second country in line is chinas in total emission , but thtere per capita amount is only 0.76.

For the total amounts for the top 20 polluters,:

http://www.ucsusa.org/global_warming/science/each-countrys-share-of-co2-emissions.html





And for those who say that Micheal Cricton shows a different point of view:

"1. How was Crichton able to take the same data that climate scientists use and come to the conclusion that global warming isn’t a real threat?

Anyone can delve into the climate literature and come to a deeper understanding of global climate change evidence. Yet the literature examples Crichton picked, and the way they are presented, seem to make a case against global warming. Scientists with climate expertise have considered not just the narrow sampling of the scientific literature that Crichton cites but many hundreds of additional papers in order to understand the full complexity of the climate system.

Climate scientists agree on the most basic key points while they continue to refine such questions as the magnitude and rate of climate change. The National Academy of Sciences, The American Geophysical Union, The American Meteorological Society, and the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) have all issued statements affirming that climate change is underway, the impacts are significant, and humans have influenced recent climate changes. Although Crichton likes to claim that consensus is not relevant in science, we disagree. When scientists with climate-relevant expertise evaluate the data and the majority comes to the same basic conclusion, this is an important result.

2. State of Fear uses many graphs that don’t show a warming trend. How can specific locations show cooling if global warming is happening?

Twenty of thirty-three graphs shown in the novel for various localities do not demonstrate a warming trend. The characters raise common sense reactions to these graphs. One character illustrates how one location (West Point, NY) can show a warming, cooling, or no trend depending on how many years are shown on the graph.

Increases in carbon dioxide (CO2) create an overall warming tendency in the atmosphere. Shifts in clouds, water vapor, and the great currents in the ocean and air, however, cause complex responses in which some regions warm more than the average while others warm less than average, or even cool. Finding a cooling trend in some region (including the Antarctic interior, which Crichton makes much of) is therefore fully compatible with the physics on which climate models are based.

Furthermore, other human-induced changes on the atmosphere can lead to regional cooling. For example, temperatures in the latter half of the last century generally cooled in the East while warming in the western United States, according to the Environmental Protection Agency. This pattern of warming and cooling in the U.S. may be part of a worldwide pattern: while most of the earth has warmed, the regions that are downwind from major sources of air pollution (specifically sulfur dioxide emissions) have generally cooled (Figure 1). Sulfur dioxide emissions convert into sulfate aerosols in the atmosphere. The ability of sulfate aerosols to reflect the sun's radiation may be one reason that increasing heat-trapping gases have not warmed the earth as much as some climate models project.

Figure 1. Blue regions indicate significant blocking of the sun’s energy by pollution that formed atmospheric sulfates.

Solar Energy Blocked by Atmospheric Sulfates

Solar Energy Blocked by Atmospheric Sulfates
(radiative forcing in watts per square meter)

In general, climate trends are often difficult to detect in data from individual stations because each station is subject to local effects. These variations can be reduced by averaging together the data from many stations, which is why climate scientists rely on such averages in detecting the first signs of the effect of CO2 increases on temperature. So far, the initial effect is still relatively small for two reasons: (i) part of that effect has been canceled temporarily by increases in sulfate aerosol, and (ii) the warming has been delayed because it takes a long time for the vast mass of the ocean to heat up.

3. What is the “urban heat island effect” and is it contributing to warming?

State of Fear characters suggest that the “urban heat island effect” may be responsible not only for heating in cities but also for global warming. They note that many long-term temperature stations are now surrounded by larger cities and could contribute to the warming seen in urban stations. While amplified warming does occur in cities and is an important local phenomenon, cities occupy only a small fraction of the planet compared to the vast area of oceans, ice caps, uninhabited mountains, and rural landscapes. Scientists are well aware and take measures to adjust for this effect so that the overall temperature trend is not biased. Temperature monitoring stations exist around the globe, on both land and sea, and we see a clear warming trend from many locations. Compared to the number of temperature stations for the U.S., it is clear that urban stations are a minor component of the U.S. temperature station network (Figure 2). The IPCC (2001) stated that urban heat island effects could contribute no more than six percent of the rising average temperature trends in 1990, and a National Academy study of the surface temperature record concluded that the global surface temperature trend accurately reflects warming.

Figure 2. Surface temperature station locations.


Surface temperature station locations

Figure source: Global Historical Climatology Network (GHCN) of the National Climatic Data Center (NCDC) National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA): http://lwf.ncdc.noaa.gov/img/climate/research/ghcn/ofig3a.gif

Furthermore, temperature gauges are not the only way to measure temperature changes. Satellites operating since 1979 have monitored lower atmosphere (tropopause) temperature over the land and oceans. Although early satellite analyses indicated only a small amount of warming during this period, these early results overlooked a satellite sensor feature that we now know included cooling data from higher in the atmosphere. Corrected for this error, the satellite measurements are now in good agreement with the global average surface temperature trends.

4. Crichton argues that C02 in the atmosphere is not closely correlated with warming trends. So why is C02 blamed as a greenhouse gas?



Over a century ago, scientists researching CO2 discovered that the earth’s temperature is very sensitive to small changes in atmospheric CO2. Crichton’s novel includes a graph showing the relationship between global average temperatures and atmospheric CO2 levels between 1880 and 2003. This graph shows a broad correlation between temperature and CO2, although some time periods do not match up. A character in the novel asks, “So, if rising carbon dioxide is the cause of rising temperatures, why didn’t it cause temperatures to rise from 1940 to 1970?”

The answer is that CO2 is only one of several factors that influence temperature, such as volcanic eruptions, solar variability, sulfur dioxide emissions (see Figure 1), and small changes in the earth’s orbit. The combined impact of all effects was cooling for those middle decades of the 20th century. When climate scientists look at the entire last century, however, they are unable to explain the significant temperature increases solely from natural causes. Only when the trends for human-induced heat-trapping gases, sulfur dioxide emissions, soot, ozone, and land use changes are also included do the hindcast model results (Figure 3) and the recorded reality match up. This is particularly true of the pronounced warming that has occurred since 1970.

Figure 3. Best match is when natural and human-induced factors are combined.


Figure source: IPCC (2001)



5. Several times Crichton notes that glaciers are expanding not retreating. Is this accurate or only part of the story?



Mr. Crichton picks evidence that supports his position and then sprinkles this data throughout the novel. He discusses the advance of many glaciers in Iceland and Norway, for example, while the evidence for accelerated melting of the major Greenland ice sheet is ignored. The rapid melting of the Kilimanjaro glacier is mentioned only to be dismissed. Crichton doesn't let the reader know, however, that this ice sheet has survived the past 11,000 years, including a 300 year long African mega-drought. At present rates of melting, Mt. Kilimanjaro glacier is likely to be gone before 2020. Most other tropical glaciers studied are also undergoing unprecedented retreat, and big changes are also underway in Antarctica. The Larsen B ice shelf, for example, broke up in 2002 in response to coastal warming, after having survived for more than 12,000 years. The precise mechanism responsible for these massive events is a matter of lively inquiry in the scientific literature, but the fact that they are all happening now that human activities have increased the atmospheric carbon dioxide concentration to a level not seen over the past 400,000 years, after having survived millennia, is powerful circumstantial evidence that should not be lightly dismissed.



6. Michael Crichton says we can’t predict the future. Does this preclude our taking steps to reduce heat trapping gas emissions?

By way of analogy, the occurrence of large earthquakes is also very difficult to predict. Just because we can’t predict when the next big earthquake in California will occur, should we stop building earthquake-resistant buildings? The IPCC projects that global temperatures will increase anywhere from +2.5°F to +10.4°F (+1.4°C to +5.8°C) by century’s end. Scientists show a range of temperature changes, rather than a single number, for a couple of different reasons: (i) imperfect knowledge about certain climate processes, such as cloud feedbacks and (ii) different assumptions about how much CO2 and other pollutants people will put into the atmosphere. These different hypotheses regarding the spread of temperature due to reason (i) are not just "guesses" as Crichton claims, but are constrained by fundamental physical principles and are tested against a challenging array of test cases drawn from the present and past climate of the Earth. The temperature spread attributed to reason (ii) arises from suppositions regarding factors such as population growth, fossil-fuel emissions, and economic and technological developments. The results provide a range of possible outcomes for policy makers to evaluate. For example, decision makers already have a good idea what will happen if no action to reduce CO2 emissions is taken: the “business as usual” scenario shows significant increases in temperature and changes in precipitation, leading to serious impacts over the next century.

Since a large portion of the projected range in temperature increases are based on human actions, the good news is that the future is in our hands. We have the opportunity right now to make choices for the future that will avoid the worst climate change impacts from occurring.

7. Why do we have to act now to reduce our dependence on fossil fuels?



Global warming from CO2 build-up in the atmosphere is different from other pollution problems society has faced. The CO2emissions we release today very literally will determine the climate we leave to our children and future generations. This is because CO2 is very long-lived in the atmosphere. You may have heard that each CO2 molecule that we emit from burning fossil fuels in our cars and power plants will remain in the atmosphere between 50 to 200 years. The more complex explanation is even more sobering — carbon cycle models indicate that ~25 percent of CO2 from fossil fuel combustion will remain in the atmosphere for thousands of years, and ~7 percent longer than one hundred thousand years.

Atmospheric CO2 concentrations are already at unprecedented levels and the consequences of a changing climate are already underway. If we wish to prevent the most severe climate change projections from actually happening, we must reverse the heat-trapping emissions trend as quickly as possible. The progressive accumulation of atmospheric CO2, however, becomes more difficult and costly to reverse as time goes on.

Current solutions exist that can be implemented now—we don’t need to wait or to rely on unknown future technological developments. Many large corporations have already reported substantial savings after they instituted measures to reduce heat-trapping gas (greenhouse gas) emissions. Recently, DuPont reported $2 billion and IBM $791 million in savings from reducing greenhouse gas emissions. We can harness new technology as it develops, but there is no reason to delay implementation of currently available technologies, such as producing electricity with wind and solar power, improving building energy efficiency, and getting better gas mileage in our vehicles."

From:http://www.ucsusa.org/global_warming/science/crichton-thriller-state-of-fear.html
 
First , it is important to know that there is not one anti-climate change scientist for every pro-climate-change scientists. The vast majority of scientists agree that climate change is real and that the human component of it is very important. Those that oppose this theory are a fringe minority , but that get a lot of air-time because some people have interest in having these ideas broadcast ( think car and petrol companies).

One of the top Nasa climate scientist was censored by the US governement because his findings were going against governement policies.
(http://www.commondreams.org/headlines06/0129-01.htm)

A thing that I find maddening is the assomtion that , because we care about climate change, we should turn into monks. It is not the case. We can choose those famous light bulbs , drive a bit more , buy local , lower our water heater, heat our houses by rooms , not the whole place at once, use the dishwasher when it is full , wash clothes in cold water, use public transport when we can, spend more time with friends and family instead of hours in front of the TV. There are things we all can easely do daily with minimum effort.

If we say that, since we dont care how much gas costs , big cars and SUV that do fufill certain consommption standards should be taxed accordinly , and there gas should be taxed accordingly as well ( since they dont care how much it costs)

Every year, in Montreal , there is a day called " A day without my car", where citizens are encouraged to not use there cars to come downtown and the whole downtown core of the city is closed to traffic. Well , the pollution levels are spectacularly lower on this day, so it does make a difference.

Lastly , pollution has no redeeming qualities whatsoever. Even if you dont believe in climate change , pollution is bad. A few months ago , here on the dis , there was this discussion about seal hunting in Canada , and how cruel it was. When there will ne ice left for the seals to hide from there water predators , there wont be any cute little baby seals. It cruelty , at a slower pace !

Good points!!! Even before we saw the movie, we had made commitments that we would try to be better "global citizens". We purchased our home in the end of Sept. 2006. It was in pretty sad shape. So, we began to set out fixing, repairing and replacing things as we could. Our air conditioners were in REALLY bad shape. We were very hot here last fall, and our electric bill was VERY high because of our old units. We purchased the most efficient units we could afford. We weatherstripped all of our doors, we replaced our old washer/dryer with the new front-loaders that use about 20% of the water, and create their own electricity as they spin. We turned down our hot water heaters and wrapped them in blankets. We changed our light bulbs. We installed programmable thermostats, and made sure that we turned our heat down in the winter and made our temp. warmer in the summer. We installed solar landscape lighting, and make more of an effort to turn off lights when we are not in the room (admittedly, this is a constant battle with our dd who just turned 5).

The result....our Nov 2006 electric bill was HALF of our Nov 2005 one. :faint: We were shocked. We hoped it would be smaller, but nowhere NEAR half!!! We are hoping to be able to afford to have our air ductwork sprayed with the hard foam stuff this spring. I have read that most of our air conditioners cold air is lost in the ductwork. The foam company says the cost will pay for itself in two years....we'll see.

My point is...with very little changes of non-important "habits", and by embracing newer, greener technologies...we have cut our electricity consumption by half. Will such changes solve ALL of our problems, no way. But maybe it will keep this world in a liveable state until better technologies can be found. It's certainly worth a shot.
 
Well, once again we have set a new record....2006 was the warmest year on record.
 
The key phrase is "on record". We've kept records for a very short period of time and the earth is billions of years old.
 
Charade said:
I'm not saying we shouldn't TRY to be more green but there's a fine balance between being green and moving forward with progress. Sure, it would be nice if everything ran on solar, wind and water power. Maybe someday.

See I think that going green IS moving forward with progress. If you can cut the amount of packaging, energy, resources needed, etc. that is progress in my eyes. Plus it just makes good business sense.
 














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