All The New Developments

[Simba77]

Precisely, which is why I said that although they were valid concerns, how much they are depends on the guest.

When they were going to allow sub-$50 PINless purchases, I was more concerned. The current PIN requirement makes it a LOT more difficult (but not impossible).

You wonder how long it will be before they start attaching your photo to the Magicband. The photos would show up on turnstiles and cash registers.

Seems like that's the way to go. They do that at Disneyland with APs.

 

[doconeill]

I have close relatives who are pretty sure it happened to them...at the Magic Kingdom. Fortunately, their credit card company called them as soon as a large gift card was purchased in another state. They could think of no situation when that card had recently been at risk of theft, other than being in a wallet in MK. However, RFID park/resort cards would seem to be a lot less attractive to thieves. I'm more worried about technical gliches affecting my limited park days.

Did they have an RFID-enabled credit card? They are out there, but I don't think the are what I would call common yet. Only one of mine is.

The problem with credit cards is that traditionally they change hands as part of a purchase, and the physical card is rarely necessary to complete a transaction. If you hand over a card to an employee anywhere, you are entrusting them with your account. They could record the number (and CVV, although that isn't always needed either) without your knowledge, and use them elsewhere.

Having self-swipe stations eliminates that, at least if they don't display the account number to the employee. Although at some places, I still have to hand over my card so the employee can enter additional info.

RFID is just a more reliable way of doing the swipe...but the problem is that it can also be read while it is in your wallet - no physical access at all is required, just close enough proximity. And I know of some hackers claims that they can read your RFID across a room. I don't know what size field generator and antenna are required to do that though.

As you say, for KTTW-type info, the usefulness is far more limited. It can only be used at WDW - card thieves rarely use them in the same place. And it is limited to whatever Disney allows on it for that particular account. Getting an RFID does not guarantee it has any given entitlement. "Gee, that one didn't work, let's try this one..." while different names pop up on the POP terminal is going to look suspicious...

 

[mom2rtk]

I have close relatives who are pretty sure it happened to them...at the Magic Kingdom. Fortunately, their credit card company called them as soon as a large gift card was purchased in another state. They could think of no situation when that card had recently been at risk of theft, other than being in a wallet in MK. However, RFID park/resort cards would seem to be a lot less attractive to thieves. I'm more worried about technical gliches affecting my limited park days.

Be careful making assumptions. How often do we hear about this or that company having their database compromised? It's entirely possible that number was stolen that way.

 

[Simba77]

Did they have an RFID-enabled credit card? They are out there, but I don't think the are what I would call common yet. Only one of mine is.

It's been in my mastercard for at least 3 years. (I'm never taking my RFID card out of the house again once my Visa - no chip - gets here)

The problem with credit cards is that traditionally they change hands as part of a purchase, and the physical card is rarely necessary to complete a transaction. If you hand over a card to an employee anywhere, you are entrusting them with your account. They could record the number (and CVV, although that isn't always needed either) without your knowledge, and use them elsewhere.

Restaurants are the one place I've heard the most concerns voiced over. The server leaves your table with your card.

And I know of some hackers claims that they can read your RFID across a room. I don't know what size field generator and antenna are required to do that though.

Probably enough to loosen fillings and give the person cancer before they actually get a full scan (And thinking about it, it seems like there'd be a good chance to fry the chip with too much voltage if it gets too close).

As you say, for KTTW-type info, the usefulness is far more limited. It can only be used at WDW - card thieves rarely use them in the same place. And it is limited to whatever Disney allows on it for that particular account. Getting an RFID does not guarantee it has any given entitlement. "Gee, that one didn't work, let's try this one..." while different names pop up on the POP terminal is going to look suspicious...

Yeah that's where I'm seeing it right now. The risk vs. reward seems quite low. And again, I get the sense that if this ever does start to become an issue, photos will be attached to the account just like APs.

 

[Tarheel girl 1975]

That might not be RFID cloning though. I've had my bank TWICE now re-issue a new credit card for me because they said something to the effect of "One of the companies you have purchased from in the past has notified us of a possible breach in their system. For your security, we're issuing you a new card. Please destroy the old one" blah blah blah.

So it could just be that somewhere your relatives made some purchases and that company had their data stolen - and assuming they have the same credit card number, it could have been years ago that they made the purchase with that seller that was compromised.

The bank can tell if a card was swiped to make a purchase or if the card number was just key entered. If the system says that the card was present, but the cardholder still had the card, then a counterfeit card has been made. Lots of places held off on RFID cards because of security concerns, although its my understanding that they are adding features that are making them more secure.

Skimming credit cards would probably be more profitable, but is more high risk. Since kttw/ magic band charges usually are sent to your room first, you might not notice the charges right away. Adding a pin for all transactions eliminates that risk.

 

[chrispeto]

I live in Canada and all of our cards have RFID enabled chips in them credit cards,bank access cards, the thing with the chip cards is when you make a purchase you insert it into a machine and enter a PIN number and the cashier doesn't touch your card. It is supposed to be more secure. This technology has been here for about three years. RFID chip tech is in passports and nexus cards as well. I have never had a problem.

 

[Simba77]

The bank can tell if a card was swiped to make a purchase or if the card number was just key entered. If the system says that the card was present, but the cardholder still had the card, then a counterfeit card has been made. Lots of places held off on RFID cards because of security concerns, although its my understanding that they are adding features that are making them more secure.

Skimming credit cards would probably be more profitable, but is more high risk. Since kttw/ magic band charges usually are sent to your room first, you might not notice the charges right away. Adding a pin for all transactions eliminates that risk.

Oh I understand that, but the post didn't mention the bank saying that it was an RFID scan; it simply said that it noticed a large gift card purchase. I think the cardholders then assumed it might have been RFID counterfeiting. The fact that it was in another state makes me think it was just a hacked database of somewhere they made a purchase in the past - online or otherwise. If you really wanted the bank not to notice a purchase, you'd make it in the same vicinity as the people you nabbed the RFID from.

But of course I don't know the details, I'm just speculating.

 

[doconeill]

I live in Canada and all of our cards have RFID enabled chips in them credit cards,bank access cards, the thing with the chip cards is when you make a purchase you insert it into a machine and enter a PIN number and the cashier doesn't touch your card. It is supposed to be more secure. This technology has been here for about three years. RFID chip tech is in passports and nexus cards as well. I have never had a problem.

There is a difference between contact chips and RFID. Prior to RFID, some credit card companies issued "smart card" credit cards with an embedded chip, but to be read they were inserted into a reader, and the reader would make contact with metal contact points on the card itself - much like putting an SD card in your camera or computer or a SIM card in a phone. It requires physical contact, and I believe a PIN is required in most if not all implementations.

I believe this was far more prevalent in Canada than the US, as in the US there wasn't really any governmental push to implement it. This is probably what you are talking about. If the card has a gold rectangular spot on the face with some grooves, it's a contact smart card. My Amex Blue card, when they first issued them, was a contact card, but absolutely nowhere used it like that. They even offered a card reader and software to use at home with it for use with online web sites.

When the card expired and they sent a new one, it was RFID instead.

(Whoa! Whipped past 15k posts...)

 

[Tarheel girl 1975]

I live in Canada and all of our cards have RFID enabled chips in them credit cards,bank access cards, the thing with the chip cards is when you make a purchase you insert it into a machine and enter a PIN number and the cashier doesn't touch your card. It is supposed to be more secure. This technology has been here for about three years. RFID chip tech is in passports and nexus cards as well. I have never had a problem.

Your card probably has an EMV chip in it, not an RFID chip. An RFID chip is a tap to pay card and sometimes called express pay. A card with an EMV chip has to be inserted or swiped. The EMV chip is supposed to be more secure. Most merchants in US don't have equipment that can read an EMV chip yet.

 

[Tarheel girl 1975]

Oh I understand that, but the post didn't mention the bank saying that it was an RFID scan; it simply said that it noticed a large gift card purchase. I think the cardholders then assumed it might have been RFID counterfeiting. The fact that it was in another state makes me think it was just a hacked database of somewhere they made a purchase in the past - online or otherwise. If you really wanted the bank not to notice a purchase, you'd make it in the same vicinity as the people you nabbed the RFID from.

But of course I don't know the details, I'm just speculating.

True. My point was that the bank may have told them that a counterfeit card was used for the fraudulent transaction. We can only speculate as to when the card was compromised. Of course lots of smart thieves make their money by selling compromised card numbers to as many people as they can before the card is shut down.

 

[doconeill]

Your card probably has an EMV chip in it, not an RFID chip. An RFID chip is a tap to pay card and sometimes called express pay. A card with an EMV chip has to be inserted or swiped. The EMV chip is supposed to be more secure. Most merchants in US don't have equipment that can read an EMV chip yet.

Yup, EMV is the standard used by the credit card companies for the contact chip smart cards, but it also covers "contactless" (i.e. RFID) cards. It's been around quite a while but has received little traction in the U.S. so far.

Sometime last year the credit card companies got together and set up a roadmap for EMV support in the U.S...and part of that is the shifting the liability to the vendors. I believe the plan is that happens sometime between 2015 and 2017. However I don't know if this means they will use contact or contactless formats. The contactless format is supposed to at least be more secure than what's currently in use here with some vendors, where they don't require any PINs, or signatures under a certain amount.

You will probably start seeing more cards with chips of either type in the next year or so.

 

[WDSearcher]

Because POTC isn't a Broadway play. Neither is Space Mountain.

Oh, and Newsies lasts quite a bit longer. I mean, I ain't shelling out $400 just to see cap'n Jack.

That doesn't answer the question, though.

Clearly, POTC is not a Broadway show and yes, Newsies lasts longer. But neither of those things matter in this example. What does matter is the process. Whether I'm trying to see a 3 hour musical or go on a 3 minute ride isn't the issue.

If your point (from way back on page 17 / post 244) is that "It is an undeniable fact that FP+ will negatively impact those not wishing to micro-manage what rides they want to ride at a given time 2 months down the road", then I continue to ask ... how is the process of reserving tickets to a Broadway show two months ahead of time any more or less micro-managing than reserving a ride time at a favorite ride, two months ahead of time?

I need to do exactly the same thing. I go online, I reserve my spot, I show up shortly before the reserved time, and I take part in the experience. Both things are a reservation -- nothing more, nothing less. If you're saying that a 3 minute ride isn't as important as a 3 hour musical and therefore shouldn't be something you have to plan out that far in advance, then I would say, "depends on the ride." For some people, being able to guarantee that they can absolutely get a FP for a specific time instead of rushing to the FP machine first thing in the morning and hoping the timing is right ... that's absolutely worth it.

 

[KatieCharlotte]

Oh I understand that, but the post didn't mention the bank saying that it was an RFID scan; it simply said that it noticed a large gift card purchase. I think the cardholders then assumed it might have been RFID counterfeiting. The fact that it was in another state makes me think it was just a hacked database of somewhere they made a purchase in the past - online or otherwise. If you really wanted the bank not to notice a purchase, you'd make it in the same vicinity as the people you nabbed the RFID from.

But of course I don't know the details, I'm just speculating.

I'm afraid I don't know the details, either, only that they believed this was what happened and I got the impression the bank had the same theory. This would never stop them, or me, from going to WDW or anywhere else. Our credit cards are constantly at risk when we use them, but fortunately fraudulent charges are generally easy to dispute. And like I said, this is not one of my concerns about magic bands and FP+. I'm sorry for adding another tangent to the discussion.

I have realized that, as a planner and a little bit of a control freak, I feel negatively about FP+ because I know how to use the old fastpass system to my benefit, and there are too many unknowns with FP+ like what the rules will actually be, how other people will use it and whether a FP+ will be available to me when I want it, how I will be able to adjust to weather and illness, and whether technical problems will interfere with all my careful planning.

I found myself thinking last night that I wanted to add a second MK day to our quick spring trip just so I could double our available FP+'s. And then I laughed at myself for ever wondering how Disney could possibly benefit from the new system. OTOH, if I was feeling a little more positive about Disney, I would probably not be planning just a quick trip.

 

[Robbi]

Like where?

I mean this seriously.... because I think the latest posts in this thread have been implying that they expect the same non-planning they do in other vacations to be available to them at a WDW vacation...and of course, FP+ interferes with that idea. And I, of course, agree with a PP that you have to plan just as much for most comparable vacations. (Laying at the beach not withstanding.)

So can you name a few places off the top of your head that you find just as enjoyable as WDW?[/QUOTE]

Most are what eliza said, since we both live in the same area...we have done Hershey Park, Phily, DC, Baltimore, Busch Gardens Williamsburg with little to no planning. Vegas we have never planned, even when we took the kids, except a helicopter/van tour to the Grand Canyon, but we could have booked that last minute too if we wanted. Even our trip out to DL wasnt as planned as our FL trip bc they dont really do/need ADRs out there. We drove up the Pacific Coast and had a loose plan, but the KEY was that everything could be changed if necessary. We do spur of the moment trips all the time. And we do planned vacations, we liked the combo that WDW provided us.

The only plans we make for other destinations are boarding for our dogs, flight, and hotel reservations.
For WDW, I feel like a battle commander planning strategy. When we do go to WDW, we always plan a few days at Universal afterwards so that we go home relaxed.

 

[tessa67]

That doesn't answer the question, though.

Clearly, POTC is not a Broadway show and yes, Newsies lasts longer. But neither of those things matter in this example. What does matter is the process. Whether I'm trying to see a 3 hour musical or go on a 3 minute ride isn't the issue.

If your point (from way back on page 17 / post 244) is that "It is an undeniable fact that FP+ will negatively impact those not wishing to micro-manage what rides they want to ride at a given time 2 months down the road", then I continue to ask ... how is the process of reserving tickets to a Broadway show two months ahead of time any more or less micro-managing than reserving a ride time at a favorite ride, two months ahead of time?

I need to do exactly the same thing. I go online, I reserve my spot, I show up shortly before the reserved time, and I take part in the experience. Both things are a reservation -- nothing more, nothing less. If you're saying that a 3 minute ride isn't as important as a 3 hour musical and therefore shouldn't be something you have to plan out that far in advance, then I would say, "depends on the ride." For some people, being able to guarantee that they can absolutely get a FP for a specific time instead of rushing to the FP machine first thing in the morning and hoping the timing is right ... that's absolutely worth it.

I guess for me, and obviously this only applies to me and my small family, it is unlikely that we will see Rapunzel giving autographs on our way to a Broadway show. However, in making out way to POTC we might. And DD6 may want to stop and get in line. Or stop at the MS Bakery and get an ice cream sandwich. Or she may be having a great time exploring Tom Sawyer's island. I prefer to let her set the pace at the parks and liked the flexibility that the paper FP gave us (we took advantage of the non-enforced return times).

She has to follow a schedule nearly every other day of her life so I used to really enjoy letting her do whatever she wanted at Disney. Including riding the Goofy Roller coaster 8 times in a row. I wouldn't like to tell her, after the 4th go around, that we had to leave to make our POTC time slot.

I am sure we will adapt to the new system, but I am wistful for the old.

I guess I see the Broadway show as more of the trip. I plan the trip (or show) but don't want to have to decide 6 months before the show if I want to use the bathroom during first or second intermission, which wine I want at intermission or whether I want the arm rest up or down. Those are the details and I want flexibility with my details. Kind of a funny example but I can't think of a better way to describe how I feel.

Maybe we should each get a FP wild card for each day that can be used for any ride at any time.

 

[larryz]

The chip, when read, ties in to the Disney servers. Your room, ticket, dining, etc., is on the Disney servers which can only be accessed by the Disney equipment.

Yes, the RFID chip can be duplicated, but not on the spot. And someone will be able to get into your room if they knew your room number, use your dining credits, use your park entries and fastpasses.

Excellent points, CF. Note to MMY and MB+ users: don't blog or post on FaceTube your room number, or dates of travel, until after your trip is over.

I have close relatives who are pretty sure it happened to them...at the Magic Kingdom. Fortunately, their credit card company called them as soon as a large gift card was purchased in another state. They could think of no situation when that card had recently been at risk of theft, other than being in a wallet in MK. However, RFID park/resort cards would seem to be a lot less attractive to thieves. I'm more worried about technical gliches affecting my limited park days.

Bingo-- your bank is your lifeline.

My bank recently canx'd my CC when a charge from a large SoCal supermarket showed up on my number... all because based on my use patterns, they knew I wasn't in SoCal at the time....

 

[WDSearcher]

I guess for me, and obviously this only applies to me and my small family, it is unlikely that we will see Rapunzel giving autographs on our way to a Broadway show. However, in making out way to POTC we might. And DD6 may want to stop and get in line. Or stop at the MS Bakery and get an ice cream sandwich. Or she may be having a great time exploring Tom Sawyer's island. I prefer to let her set the pace at the parks and liked the flexibility that the paper FP gave us (we took advantage of the non-enforced return times).

Then again ... on your way to a Broadway show, you may see an ice cream truck or a street performer or a shop window that your DD6 may want to watch or explore. It's not like there's nothing else in the Times Square area that could possibly pull her attention.

She has to follow a schedule nearly every other day of her life so I used to really enjoy letting her do whatever she wanted at Disney. Including riding the Goofy Roller coaster 8 times in a row. I wouldn't like to tell her, after the 4th go around, that we had to leave to make our POTC time slot.

I am sure we will adapt to the new system, but I am wistful for the old.

I guess I see the Broadway show as more of the trip. I plan the trip (or show) but don't want to have to decide 6 months before the show if I want to use the bathroom during first or second intermission, which wine I want at intermission or whether I want the arm rest up or down. Those are the details and I want flexibility with my details. Kind of a funny example but I can't think of a better way to describe how I feel.

Maybe we should each get a FP wild card for each day that can be used for any ride at any time.

I totally get that (and I LOVE the idea of everyone getting one "wild card", although that could be a nightmare if everyone decides to use their wild card FP at TSMM ... there'd still need to be some sort of limits).

But in your case, since they've done away with flexible FP return times, you're kind of stuck either way. If you know your FP time is between 10-11am, you still have to get there between 10-11am or forfeit the FP, regardless if it's a FP you pulled that morning or a FP you reserved two months ago. If your daughter wants an ice cream or some time in the Casey Jr water play area and that causes you to miss your FP time, you're missing it under either system.

I realize that not everyone makes ADRs, but if you DO make ADRs for certain "must do" restaurants (character dining, BOG, etc), then you likely do your best to make those. And if your daughter wanting to ride Goofy's Barnstormer 8 times in a row meant that you'd miss your ADR at CRT, you might gently start moving her from Storybook Circus to the castle sometime after round four.

That was my only point. That for those people who already make reservations for things, this is just another reservation you're making that you can choose to keep or not. You can make a reservation for Dumbo and then choose not to keep it, just as you can pull a FP for Pirates and choose to not use it.

 

[Angel Ariel]

I think people are feeling like fp+ is micromanaging because it is just one *more* thing to have to plan. Would I feel the way I do about it if a fp was the only thing that was planned? Probably not. But it isn't. Working fp+ around existing adrs (since adrs open so much earlier), and choosing adrs based on what days should be least crowded...now it starts getting to be too much. I don't mind planning ahead for some things, but I like to leave some things for the day of. If fp+ has reliable same day availability, that's great. But there is reasonable reason to be concerned that there won't be availability for headliners at that point.

To use the Broadway analogy, since I'm a huge music theatre person: when I go to nyc, the only thing I plan is the show. Yes, I buy those ahead of time. But everything else...train tix to get up there, meals, where we are going to shop/spend our day before the show...all of that is decided at the train station and then once we are in the city. It would be a lot more stressful of a day if we were concerned about making 3 different reservations (2 meals and the show).

 

[CandleontheWater]

comparing a Broadway show to a WDW attraction is not comparing like entities.

The "WDW vacation" equivalent of a "NYC vacation" Broadway show is La Nuba. Both are experiences that need to be planned in advance, that you purchase tickets for and are experienced at set times.

Some people who travel to WDW choose to experience La Nuba, those people accept that there is no flexibility if they choose that specific entertainment option. At WDW, just like at NYC, there are PLENTY of other things to do if you prefer flexibility and don't want to be tied down to a specific time or place. The beef that people have with FP+ is that it would cut down on the amount of other things at WDW that don't require pre-planning.

The NYC vacation equivalent of FP+ would be if I had to commit to being at the polar bear exhibit at the Central Park zoo at 10 am three months prior to leaving on vacation. I wouldn't be very keen on that, just like I'm not in love with the idea of hard and fast FP+ times.

Here is the thing, I'm a planner at heart. I love going on to touring plans and making optimized touring plans and I adore spreadsheets and the idea of micro-managing my vacation.

I would LOVE FP+ if I was able to travel solo, the problem is that I have to travel with two small, unpredictable creatures who love nothing more than creating confusion, delay, trouble and mayhem and who always mange to grind my perfectly prepared daily schedules to dust, usually by 10 am.

I love traveling to Disney because no other vacation destination is easier when it comes to traveling with babies, toddlers and preschoolers, however, Disney seems to keep creating policies that are only making it harder and harder. First the CC cancellation policy, then enforcement of FP times, and while neither of those have caused me to throw in the towel yet, they have both made my trips significantly more difficult than they were even just three years ago.

Being limited to three fastpasses a day is a blow, but if FP+ does not allow for dynamic same day changes, I might have to step back from Disney for a few years until the kids get older and its easier to stick to a schedule.

I can see how FP+ may work well in the future, in about 12 years, when the kids are older teenagers who like to sleep in and only want to do thrill rides, but that seems like such a long way off.

 

[Planogirl]

I think that the Broadway show comparison only works if I plan to see at least three shows in one day plus I have reservations for at least two restaurants on that same day. One Broadway show or one sporting event or whatever is no big deal compared to several in one day.

I realize that the show takes longer than a ride but it's still just one event to work around.