All Star Suites...

[*NikkiBell*]

I think this comment is 100% false. Have you stayed at Port Orleans French Quarter? What Holiday Inn has its own lake with boats that take you to another area (Downtown Disney)? Reminds me of the deluxes' transportation options. POFQ is gorgeous, sprawling with beautiful decor and gardens. The courtyards all have sparkling fountains and cobblestone streets. There's carriage rides, live Jazz music nightly, and more. If there's a Holiday Inn that could match up to POFQ, I'd be shocked.

 

[YoHo]

Sara, joshsmom, everyone, I had no intention of denegrating posters. I think those who know me, know I'm more concerned with what Disney should be. Of course we all have to deal with what Disney is and that includes the fact that the Deluxes have been priced out of reasonablness. We have to deal wih the values, that doesn't mean we have to accept them and I won't call them part of being in "Disney" even if they are part of being in Disney(tm).

 

[RobInBigKC]

It's well established with a quick look at the rack rate prices that when Disney only had the Poly, the Contemp and the Campground (and the Golf resort) That's it's prices were significantly lower then they were at the time CBR was built. They went up faster then inflation. To a large extent, Disney bilked people into thinking they were getting a deal with CBR when all they were doing was giving them less then they used to get.

Could be. Maybe I fell into the Disney marketing trap. All I know for sure is that when I was a kid and the CR, the Poly, and the Golf Resort were the only resorts available, the prices were out of reach of my parents' budget. We used to dream of being able to stay at one of the "semi-official" hotels on Disney property such as the HoJo. When I started taking my own kids in 1997, we could have stayed at a moderate (CBR) or a value but the kids chose the value (came down to only a question of sports theme vs. nicer pools in a 5 year old boy's eyes). Now that my immediate family is up to myself, DW, and 4 DS's, the only place we can stay onsite is a value (if we want the opportunity to return on any sort of semiregular basis) -- anything higher and WDW would be a once a decade treat or the kids would be hearing "no, you can't have that ice cream", etc., all the time during our stay.

I've talked to some Disney employees that indicated that when CBR was built, most of the long term imagineers and employees were offended by what they had created. It was so against everything WDW was supposed to be. If the Caribbean Beach Resort offended the Imagineers that built WDW and DL, think of how their stomachs must churn at the site of the poop century.

Unfortunately, Walt is obviously long gone so there is no way for sure to know what his vision was. IMO, the value resorts WERE part of his plan. See Walt's "Florida film" recorded on October 27, 1966, a little over one month before his death. Walt says in that film, "We’re now developing a master plan that encompasses the theme park and all the facilities around it that will serve the tourist: hotels, motels, and a variety of recreational activity. In fact, just this little area alone is five times the size of Disneyland in California."

He obviously was referring to WDW itself (not the area outside of WDW that he didn't control) and note that he referred to BOTH hotels and motels. Remember that hotels and motels were very much different things back in the 1960s (and before).

The sketch below also shows references to an area of hotels where the CR, the Poly, and the GF are today (although initial plans were for an Asian hotel to be on the plot of land that the GF now sits on) near what would become the MK and an area of camps and MOTELS farther out (like the values are today).

If you want to read some opinions on the resorts, I suggest you do a search on resort caste system on this board. I'm not going to repost the arguments.

I tried to do this but got too many hits on threads where people meant to type the word "castle". LOL.

I was able to identify a few from their titles, however, and read them. Obviously, there is a caste system and the mods and deluxes do get additional benefits that the values don't and I have no problem with either one of those facts.

My earlier post was to say that, IMO, your blanket statement that there aren't advantages/fun/excitement at the Values was/is incorrect. I'm sure the a/f/e at a deluxe or mod is of a different type and of a different level than it is at a value.

However, a "We're staying at WDW feel" is still there at the values. If it wasn't, my family would still be staying off-site (thus probably giving us bigger rooms for the same amount of money or the same size rooms for less money) just as we did in the 1970s and 1980s.

And I'd still like my question answered.

I don't know what the Value suites are priced at. I don't think anyone does except for the few families that have been able to stay in them. My GUESS is somewhere from 85% to 115% of the cost of two stand-alone value rooms.

the Deluxes have been priced out of reasonablness.

Something we agree on. Although, if Disney can fill the deluxe rooms at the prices they're asking, why not have their prices set at that point? Sadly, I don't think I will ever be able to stay in one (without winning a sweepstakes of some sort) with the price structure the way it is but I have no problem with others being able to.

-- Rob

 

[YoHo]

I don't disagree that Walt wanted a lower priced option I think there should be one. I thinkthe current values however do not represent anything like real Disney imagineering and excellence. I wanted them to do it right, not just do it.

 

[mrsR123]

I don't disagree that Walt wanted a lower priced option I think there should be one. I thinkthe current values however do not represent anything like real Disney imagineering and excellence. I wanted them to do it right, not just do it.

That is perfectly stated.

 

[pedro2112]

I don't disagree that Walt wanted a lower priced option I think there should be one. I thinkthe current values however do not represent anything like real Disney imagineering and excellence. I wanted them to do it right, not just do it.

Not that I disagree with you, but what could have been done different and still kept the price well under $100.00/night at todays prices?

 

[YoHo]

They could have used the original tiered approach where each Hotel contained 3 distinct levels of rooms on the same complex. The same plan that they brought back for Animal Kingdom and was nixed as being too expensive to build.


Contemp was supposed to have the Tower (highest price) Garden Wings (moderate) Courtyard (value)

Back during WDW planning, Imagineering and Disney realized they didn't have the resources to pull that off, so they concentrated on building the best parts of the resorts as well as they could with the intention of adding on when they could.

They brought in outside companies to do the lower cost options.

All was fine and when Epcot was built they started making plans, but then Eisner showed up and the idea that the poor guests should be lumped in with the rich guests offended his park avenue sensibilities, so they were shoved off.

 

[DisneyKidds]

They could have used the original tiered approach where each Hotel contained 3 distinct levels of rooms on the same complex. The same plan that they brought back for Animal Kingdom and was nixed as being too expensive to build.

Careful with that one Yoho. Was that ever really a plan, or was that AV's idea of how Mods and Values could have been done and still have been "Disney"? I remember the thread where he laid out his idea for the African Village hotel, but I seem to recall that as being a "how could they have done it" idea, not a "this was what they were planning on doing, but didn't" kind of thing.

I'll see if I can find the thread.

Oh, and as for that Contemporary....weren't the wings just a cheap grab at increased occupancy .

 

[Another Voice]

Oh, and as for that Contemporary....weren't the wings just a cheap grab at increased occupancy

Both the Garden Wings and the Courtyard (to have located where the convention center now sits) exist on plans from 1969.

The original concept for WDW was for a resort - that meant all levels of price points, including motels. Each guest would be able to enjoy ALL of WDW, and pick the accomidation that best suited their need.

The concept of "resort tiers" where the resorts themselves were segregated (and the only difference between rooms was "parking lot view") was brought in by Michael Eisner. His primary interest was with the large, deluxe hotels catering to free spending vacationeers. The Moderates and Values were only ecomonic entities designed to siphon people off Internation Drive. And yes, there were intentionally set as far out of the way as possible as not degrade the high rent district. It's not the people at the Grand Floridian looking down at the people at the All Stars - it's Disney themselves.

Not that I disagree with you, but what could have been done different and still kept the price well under $100.00/night at todays prices?

The company that claims they are the single greatest creative force in the world, the touchstone for imagination, the wizards that create "magic" for millions every year - and the best they can come up with is three tons of fiberglass spelling out "Do The Funky Chicken"?

Even I think they are capable of more than that had they wished to try. But, they didn't try because they figured you're not worth it. You'd spend the money to stay at the place no matter what they did, so they did the least effort possible.

 

[peter11435]

It's not the people at the Grand Floridian looking down at the people at the All Stars - it's Disney themselves.

That’s a rather bold (and slightly foolish) comment to make. Especially considering the values are more profitable than the deluxes.

 

[Another Voice]

If you knew what Disney management really thinks about the three-visit-a-year pin trading crowd - it would make your snow globe boil.

 

[peter11435]

If you knew what Disney management really thinks about the three-visit-a-year pin trading crowd - it would make your snow globe boil.

And we're supposed to believe that you know what Disney management really thinks about them. Please tell me how you are so priliged to have all of this inside information about every facit of the Walt Disney Company. So since you know all of this who does disney prefer, the once in a life time spend all their money crowd, or the cheap locals.

 

[YoHo]

I'd like proof that the Values are more profitable.

 

[peter11435]

I'd like proof that the Values are more profitable.

Well the fact that in the last 10 years Disney (a profit driven company in your opinon) has constructed 8640 value resort rooms and only about 1200 deluxe rooms. That should be proof enough.

 

[All Aboard]

I don't know about the margins at each resort. But, on the numbers built - it's not quite as extreme as 8640 v 1200. Since the 8640 includes All Star Sports, then you have to include the Wilderness Lodge since they both opened the same year.

So, 728 WL rooms; 1,308 AKL rooms and 378 Boardwalk Inn rooms total 2,414 deluxe rooms built.

I don't think you can that metric alone and conclude that the values are more profitable. It makes you ask "if they weren't, then why did they build so many more than they did Deluxes in the past 11 years?" But, the answer to that question may simply be that perhaps Disney thought that they were fully saturated in the Deluxe category and that the unserviced market was the lower price point - and that's where they could steal market share. Notice too, that the bulk of the deluxe rooms built during the past 11 years are the cheapest rooms to rent in that category.

 

[YoHo]

Based on margin, I'd say it simply takes more Value rooms to generate the same profit as those fewer Deluxe rooms. And as AA stated, maybe they thought it was an underserved market.

In either case, you're making a pretty far reaching statment there.

 

[doubletrouble_vb]

I'd have to look at this and say...they didn't complete Pop Century so that makes me question how profitable these motels are. And the numbers cited don't include the DVC units.

It would be interesting to know what hotel classification generates the most income for Disney including the margins on food the guests buy, the trinkets, and the nights accomodations.

 

[YoHo]

I would guess that DVC makes the most upfront profit. Of course that's at the expense of long term profit, but such is Disney in 2006.

I would bet the Deluxes with their higher rack rates and popular resturants (that pull guests from other, cheaper, resorts) are likely the most profitable on a per guest basis.

 

[Costumesaremylife]

I'd love more info on the Suites. I love the All star movies and Pop century. I love kitsch, cheese, crazyiness and all the fun of those hotels. I may not be able to hop on a monorail, but that doesn't bother me.

 

[Lesleyluvdisney]

yeah, well when it stops costing us about $3200 just to get there...then..we'll maybe start staying at the "moderate-deluxe" resorts. as it is our trip to the "all stars" this year has cost us $3900 as opposed to the $6800 for WL.

Well said Rob!!

Les
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