Air Force Chaplains continue to steal sheep

[Miss Inga Depointe]

Possibly but the definition of "proselytize" can mean different things to different people. Just telling/informing the "unchurched" about services that are available is one thing.

If it were that simple, you might be right, but allowing it opens the door. A chaplain could aggressively recruit and when asked about it just say he was being "informational".

A chaplain can be there for people without doing commercials for his brand.

 

[Charade]

The job of the military chaplain is not to "herd sheep". It is to minister to all. If a chaplain wants to "herd sheep" they can work for a church and not for the government. The military isn't his/her church and soldiers are not his/her flock.

A military chaplain holds a position of authority because of who they are. And "herding sheep" is using that position and that is abuse of power.

And I'd bet dollars to doughnuts (KK, of course ) that no one would be defending a Muslim military chaplain if they were doing the same "herding sheep".

If he is to administer faith services to ALL, what "sheep" is he trying to "herd"??

 

[MizBlu]

If he is to administer faith services to ALL, what "sheep" is he trying to "herd"??

Very clever, Charade. You tried to sneak in the little kicker "administer faith services". Part of being a military chaplain is officiating at services, but the job is not "administering faith services, but to minister to all.

 

[MizBlu]

A chaplain can be there for people without doing commercials for his brand.

You have hit the nail on the head.

 

[hokiefan33]

I just love watching the 2 sides go back and forth. It's an ending battle that nobody will ever win, b/c neither side will ever convince the other. But I am glad to see people at least standing up for what they believe in; at least you can actually TELL what some people believe in.

 

[Maleficent13]

I am so completely confused. Can someone (who thinks this is wrong) please tell me exactly, in plain English, what they think the job of a military chaplain is? Please do not say "minister to all". What does "minister to all" mean? And how can they minister to anyone without bringing their faith into it? What am I missing here?

BTW, I am agnostic at best, so this isn't about a religious agenda for me.

 

[DisDuck]

Along with Mal... I would like a definition of 'unchurched' or 'unaffiliated'. How does someone 'look' unchurched'? Are horns growing out of there head and do they have a tail?

The simple solution is to post service hours for the various denominations and faiths and see who comes. If there is a new face in the audience (chaplain can ask if anyone new) then take it from there. But to walk up to someone on campus and ask are you 'affiliated' or 'churched' is none of anyone's business. Besides why do most here use the term 'unchurched' why not 'unsynagogued' or 'unmosqued'. To me consistently using the term 'church' in reference to religion constricts to one group.

 

[ToriLammy]

If it were that simple, you might be right, but allowing it opens the door. A chaplain could aggressively recruit and when asked about it just say he was being "informational".

A chaplain can be there for people without doing commercials for his brand.

The Majority of US Air Force Chaplains are doing just that -- being there for people without doing commercials. This article and the subsequent arguments are about the chaplains and CADETS at the US Air Force Academy. A place like no other place in the Air Force and with a very small sphere of influence in regard to the actions of the entire US Air Force.

In my time in the Air Force I never once was "preached" at or made uncomfortable by a chaplain. They were mostly known for doing visits to duty sections and bringing cookies to shift workers, etc. and for services on Saturday and Sunday.

I have, since I retired and watched the changes regarding religion and the government wondered when someone would attack the US military and their chaplain system. It started with the boy scouts on base using the chaple for their meetings and has now progressed to the Air Force Academy (can West Point and the Naval Academy be far behind?)

Here's part of the official job description for the US Air Force Chaplains:

Duties and Responsibilities:

Develops peacetime and wartime plans and policies relative to organization and management of chaplain activities such as manpower, Chaplain Readiness Teams (CRT), deployments, ministry strategies, training, chaplain materiel, and chaplain funds.

Conducts worship services, liturgies, and rites. Provides counseling, pastoral care, visitation, religious education, morale programs, spiritual renewal, lay leadership programs, and humanitarian outreach opportunities. Represents the faith and military communities in religious, patriotic, and civic events. Maintains liaison with civilian clergy and organizations to keep current in areas of interest to Chaplain Service programs.

Supervises administration and fiscal control of Chaplain Service functions. Advises commanders on religious, ethical, moral, morale, and quality of life matters. Advises the commanders of their responsibilities to provide appropriate facilities or sites for worship, rites, and counseling.

Maintains ecclesiastical liaison with religious officials and submits required professional reports and records

Pretty vague huh? Well most AF Force job descriptions are because the job can vary from location to location and they are just trying to cover the major points of the job. Just as you read it to say one thing someone else will see it as clarifying their position. I'm sure some Chaplains read more into it than is actually there while others understand it to mean something completely different.

Does the AF Academy have a problem? From what I've read yes but that does not mean that the thousands of AF chaplains currently assigned all over the world are doing the same thing as "some" chaplains in the AF Academy.

As for unchurched or unaffiliated, the military maintains very large personnel files on everyone and yes one question you are supposed to answer is your religious preference. There is a block for unaffiliated and if you fail to answer it will say "no preference." Chaplains can get listings of those who are listed as "unaffiliated" or "no preference". There is no "unchurched" used on the forms or listings in the military to the best of my knowledge.

 

[cardaway]

How does it make us look??

So, they are recruiting the "unchurched". Big deal. They aren't recruiting suicide bombers to obliterate the non believer infidels.

No they put them in tanks or give them guns.

 

[WDWHound]

Besides why do most here use the term 'unchurched' why not 'unsynagogued' or 'unmosqued'. To me consistently using the term 'church' in reference to religion constricts to one group.

While the term church is a strictly a Christion term (to the best of my knowledge),the comparison to the words Synagogue and mosques does not really work. The word church means much more than just a place of worship to Chirstians. The word also means all Christians viewed collectively. This collective body of Christians is also reffered to as the body of Christ. In short, church can mean a building, a specific denomination (Like the Methodist Church), or all Christains viewed as one group. When Paul reffered to the Church in the Bible, he was usually usiing the last definition.

When people use the term "unchurched" (a term I tend not to use), I find that they usually mean someone who is not a beleiver in any faith and therefore not a member of the collective body of a faith. I have also heard it used to mean a person is not a Christian (not a member of Christ's Church). Another very common use of this term is to indicate someone is not brought up in a faith or uneducated in a faith.

Anyway, I hope that explains why the use of the term "unsynagogued" would not be the equivilant. The word church has many more meanings to us than the term synagogue has for you. I don't like the unchurched term myself. To me it sounds derogatory (though its usually not meant that way) and tends to lead to confusiuon.

 

[cardaway]

Because they are allowed to practice their own religion, which includes talking to others about it. Again, if the person says no, then they should move on. I don't see the big deal with that. Should everybody in the country be banned from ever speaking about their religion then?? Freedom of speech gone right along with freedom of religion?

If there is evidence of it going to far in the closed ranks of the armed forces, then by all means make rules against that speach.

It's the same as sexual harrassment laws. What harm can a few words do?

 

[cardaway]

I just love watching the 2 sides go back and forth. It's an ending battle that nobody will ever win, b/c neither side will ever convince the other. But I am glad to see people at least standing up for what they believe in; at least you can actually TELL what some people believe in.

Does this mean you are going to stop doing it starting now. Or it will be one fo those it starts right now situations... wait, now... no, now...

 

[cardaway]

Anyway, I hope that explains why the use of the term "unsynagogued" would not be the equivilant. The word church has many more meanings to us than the term synagogue has for you. I don't like the unchurched term myself. To me it sounds derogatory (though its usually not meant that way) and tends to lead to confusiuon.

I see you left out an answer to the "I would like a definition of 'unchurched' or 'unaffiliated'. How does someone 'look' unchurched'? Are horns growing out of there head and do they have a tail?" question. Maybe because the vague wording allows them to "mistakenly" harass others.

 

[WDWHound]

I see you left out an answer to the "I would like a definition of 'unchurched' or 'unaffiliated'. How does someone 'look' unchurched'? Are horns growing out of there head and do they have a tail?" question. Maybe because the vague wording allows them to "mistakenly" harass others.

I didn't leave it out,its just not the question I chose to answer. Obviousley you cant tell when someone is "unchurched". I thought that was kind of obvious. DisDucks question seemed to indicate that he was not ware of all the definitions of the term Church for Christains, and I though an explanation would help the discussion. My post was not intened to defend or object to the practices discussed here, only to clarify terminology. I have already indicated on this thread an many others that I feel sharing ones faith needs to be done respectfully and I saw no need to repeat mysrlf in that post.

 

[cardaway]

I didn't leave it out,its just not the question I chose to answer. Obviousley you cant tell when someone is "unchurched". I thought that was kind of obvious. DisDucks question seemed to indicate that he was not ware of all the definitions of the term Church for Christains, and I though an explanation would help the discussion. My post was not intened to defend or object to the practices discussed here, only to clarify terminology. I have already indicated on this thread an many others that I feel sharing ones faith needs to be done respectfully and I saw no need to repeat mysrlf in that post.

Not the way I read it. Looks like he understood church, but not why they chose terms that are... in your own words... derogatory!

 

[WDWHound]

Not the way I read it. Looks like he understood church, but not why they chose terms that are... in your own words... derogatory!

Again, am was not defnding or attackinfg the use of the word. Mr Duck asked "Besides why do most here use the term 'unchurched' why not 'unsynagogued' or 'unmosqued'." If one understands all the Christian definitions of the term "church", then this question does not make sense. Since I have never known DisDuck to ask a non sensical question, I thought there might be some confusion regarding teminology. Synagogues and Mosques are only defined as physical locations or structures, places of worship, study and discussion. The Church is much more than that to Christians. That is all I was trying to saying. I am sorry you read more into it than that, but I really was simply trying to clarify vocabulary.

 

[JennyMominRI]

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/12/national/12airforce.html

That's right, they call it stealing sheep.

And if the practice wasn't sick enough, I saw a chaplain interviewed on TBN this morning that said he would, and others should, continue on despite whatever rules are put in place.

Perfect example of how bad things have got.

I experienced something like this this myself a few years ago...I had had the stroke and then a cerebral angiogram to look for vasculitus..They had cut an artery in my leg,put a wire in with a camera in it and sent it up to my brains to take pictues. Because It involved cutting an artery I had to lie flat on my back and not move for 6 hours. I was told not to cough or even talk much because the artery could hemmorage(I was also on blood thinners)..While the chaplain came in to talk to me and saw *Jewish* on my chart.I was stupid enough to say I was converting and then sat through a 30 minute talk about Messianic JudaismIE. Christianity.. He was clearly tying to get me to go back to Christianity. I wasn't really able to counter anything he said because I was so sedated and unable to move,Talk much etc.. I thought that was way wrong of him.

 

[cardaway]

I am sorry you read more into it than that, but I really was simply trying to clarify vocabulary.

I didn't read more into it, just read it differently, just like you said you did.

 

[cardaway]

While the chaplain came in to talk to me and saw *Jewish* on my chart.I was stupid enough to say I was converting and then sat through a 30 minute talk about Messianic JudaismIE. Christianity.. He was clearly tying to get me to go back to Christianity. I wasn't really able to counter anything he said because I was so sedated and unable to move,Talk much etc.. I thought that was way wrong of him.

He must have just misinderstood.

 

[WDWHound]

I didn't read more into it, just read it differently, just like you said you did.

I meant you read more into my response than I inteneded, I actually do understand you interpretation of what DisDuck said. I think the confusion arose from the fact that I chose not to address the first part of his post as I have have already posted my views on this sort of thing) and merely chose to address the possible confusion over terminology (Ie why the terms unchurched and unsynagogued are not really comparable).