Air Force Chaplains continue to steal sheep

Status
Not open for further replies.
bicker said:
Respect for others is a fundamental principle of the Jewish faith.


And "witnessing" is a fundamental part of the Christian faith which should be respected also. As long as the person witnessing respects your wishes if you say you aren't interested.
 
Perhaps I'm confused. I read the article to say that chaplains were not permitted to recruit anyone who declared to be a member of another faith (thus, no sheep stealing). But if a person was unaffiliated with any faith, the chaplain was permitted to try to convince them to join their faith. Am I correct so far?

Assuming I am, then what is so hard about refusing an unwanted advance by a chaplain with a, "No thanks, I'm fine. I do not wish to discuss this with you." How is their asking me about my faith a violation of my rights? I am perfectly within my rights to refuse to answer them.

Now, if they tie me up in a room and refuse to let me go until I listen to them and/or convert, then they've violated my rights.

edited for a typo
 
alabamaalan said:
I don't see that in the article. It said that chaplains are NOT allowed to evangelize to persons of other religions. Nor did I see where they went "way beyond"

There may be a legitimate complaint, I just don't see it specified in the article.
Exactly, but why let the facts interfere with some good old bashing?
 
In the case where different faiths conflict, respect requires that one restricts their beliefs and actions to themself.
 

bicker said:
In the case where different faiths conflict, respect requires that one restricts their beliefs and actions to themself.
I would agree. But a chaplain or any other person would not know this unless they asked. I see no problem with a chaplain asking someone about his/her beliefs and offering to share their faith with them, if the person desires. If the other person says, "No thanks", the conversation ends. No harm, no foul.

But to say that a chaplain cannot even broach the subject is a violation of their right to exercise their religion/faith.

I agree with the concept of mutual respect, but it has to truly be mutual. I don't believe anyone's hands should be tied.
 
bicker said:
In the case where different faiths conflict, respect requires that one restricts their beliefs and actions to themself.

I do not disagree with that, but I thought this referred to people of no faith.
 
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051006/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/academy_religion

"Weinstein has one son who graduated from the academy last year and another who is a junior there. Both were subjected to anti-Semitic slurs from evangelical Christian cadets, he said."

...

"There have been complaints at the academy that a Jewish cadet was told the Holocaust was revenge for the death of Jesus and that another Jew was called a Christ killer by a fellow cadet. A banner in the football team's locker room read: "I am a Christian first and last ... I am a member of Team Jesus Christ."

Also, there have been complaints that cadets were pressured to attend chapel, that academy staffers put New Testament verses in government e-mail, and that cadets used the e-mail system to encourage others to see the Mel Gibson movie "The Passion of the Christ."

...

"After a July visit to the academy, a team from the Yale Divinity School issued a report last month saying it found lingering problems among the academy's chaplains, whose activities may conflict with the goals of school leaders and the Air Force overall.

--------------------

Lingering problems... shocking. :rolleyes:
 
The article is referrng to the Air Force Academy, which is essentially a private school. In any case the Air Force Academy is one messed up place. (rapes, coverups). We are military and in a real daily life setting this is not an issue, at least not one I have encountered in 12 years. I really hate people that knock on my door, though, to 'sell' me their religion! How anyone thinks that is a good idea or appropriate is beyond me! But I digress....
 
cardaway said:
They were going much further than that, or did you skip the parts where they described actions that went far beyond sharing?

People who believe that actions like that are acceptable are part of the problem.

Under no conditions is harassment acceptable and it's quite telling that this practice is only a problem with Christian evangelists.

Maybe I missd that part. What section of the Article describes them as going "far beyond sharing". I saw where there were proselytizing to some members of the Jewish faith (which I agree they should not be doing), but I dodn't see anything that describes the specifics of how this was done. Did I miss something?

Basically, this clause covers what the behavior should be (IMO): ""I will not actively proselytize from other religious bodies. However, I retain the right to instruct and/or evangelize those who are not affiliated." Willful disregard of this clause is disrespectful IMO. Offering a to dicuss Christianity with someone is fine as long as you are not aware of any differeing faith they may have and are you willing to respect a response of "no thanks" and leave it at that.
 
cardaway said:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051006/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/academy_religion

"Weinstein has one son who graduated from the academy last year and another who is a junior there. Both were subjected to anti-Semitic slurs from evangelical Christian cadets, he said."

...

"There have been complaints at the academy that a Jewish cadet was told the Holocaust was revenge for the death of Jesus and that another Jew was called a Christ killer by a fellow cadet. A banner in the football team's locker room read: "I am a Christian first and last ... I am a member of Team Jesus Christ."

Also, there have been complaints that cadets were pressured to attend chapel, that academy staffers put New Testament verses in government e-mail, and that cadets used the e-mail system to encourage others to see the Mel Gibson movie "The Passion of the Christ."

...

"After a July visit to the academy, a team from the Yale Divinity School issued a report last month saying it found lingering problems among the academy's chaplains, whose activities may conflict with the goals of school leaders and the Air Force overall.

--------------------

Lingering problems... shocking. :rolleyes:

Wow, this text is not the article I saw. Sounds like this is a dicipline problem amongst cadets, not the chaplains, but it needs to be corrected.
 
cardaway said:
"After a July visit to the academy, a team from the Yale Divinity School issued a report last month saying it found lingering problems among the academy's chaplains, whose activities may conflict with the goals of school leaders and the Air Force overall.

--------------------

Lingering problems... shocking. :rolleyes:


Yale Divinity School... shocking :rolleyes: :)

Thanks for the specifics, however. None of that was mentioned in the first article. Nonetheless, the examples were primarily of cadets and they should definitely be reprimanded for their actions. Their conduct was inexcusable.

But unless they can show a pattern of abuse or lack of respect from the chaplains, I still don't see why their rights to share their faith should be limited.
 
I guess I must be missing something? The pastors are not allowed to talk to people about their religion if they know they are not affiliated with any particular religion? I really don't understand what is so bad about them encouraging someone to attend a certain service. If they say no, and then the chaplains continue, then I see a problem, but just to try and talk to them initially?

Am I missing something in the article?
 
6_Time_Momma said:
I guess I must be missing something? The pastors are not allowed to talk to people about their religion if they know they are not affiliated with any particular religion? I really don't understand what is so bad about them encouraging someone to attend a certain service. If they say no, and then the chaplains continue, then I see a problem, but just to try and talk to them initially?

Am I missing something in the article?
::yes:: You aren't reading enough into the article. ;)
 
Here is the article in its entirity as it appears in my browser. I'm sorry Caraway, but I just cant find the sections you quoted. Have they changed it? Is there a link I missed? I am not disputing you, I just don't think we are reading the same thing.

<snip>
The Air Force said Tuesday that it had "withdrawn for further review" a code of ethics that gave its chaplains permission to evangelize military members who are "not affiliated" with any faith.

The Air Force revoked the ethics code in August, but the code's existence only became public Tuesday in the wake of a lawsuit accusing the Air Force of permitting unconstitutional proselytizing of its members.

The lawsuit was filed last week by Mikey Weinstein, an Air Force veteran and graduate of the Air Force Academy in Colorado Springs who is Jewish. Mr. Weinstein said he had become concerned about religious proselytizing at the academy while his two sons were attending it.

The code included the sentence: "I will not actively proselytize from other religious bodies. However, I retain the right to instruct and/or evangelize those who are not affiliated."

Before he filed suit, Mr. Weinstein's lawyer met with the acting secretary of the Air Force, Pete Geren, to try to get the Air Force to clarify its policy on proselytizing.

After hearing that the lawsuit had been filed, the Air Force's general counsel, Mary L. Walker, sent Mr. Geren a letter last week disclosing the section of the code about evangelizing the unaffiliated and informing him that the code had been withdrawn. Ms. Walker said in her letter that the Air Force did not endorse proselytizing.

The letter from Ms. Walker was reported on Tuesday by The Washington Post and The Los Angeles Times.

Mr. Weinstein called the code a "smoking gun," and said he was shocked to learn that the Air Force actually had a policy allowing chaplains to pursue nonreligious Air Force members.

"Does that mean atheists or agnostics don't have the rights of other Americans?" he said. "And how do they decide who's not affiliated? What about Protestants that just go to the Easter sunrise service or the midnight Mass at Christmas?"

The Air Force said the code was issued in January. But MeLinda Morton, a former Air Force chaplain, said she remembered receiving a code of ethics that contained a similar directive when she attended chaplain training school several years ago at Maxwell Air Force Base in Alabama. Ms. Morton left the Air Force in June after she publicly criticized the religious climate at the Air Force Academy, where she worked, and was given orders to transfer to Japan.

"The basic drift of that part of the code was that you were not supposed to engage in 'sheep stealing,' " Ms. Morton said, using a phrase often used by members of the clergy. "If you could somehow identify that these people were not branded sheep, then you could go after them. But if they were, you were to keep your mitts off."

The purpose of the directive, she said, was "to keep peace among the chaplains."
<unsnip>
 
WDWHound, cardaway's 1st article was from the NYT. The 2nd link was to an AP article posted on Yahoo. The quotes came from the AP article (see below)
ALBUQUERQUE, N.M. - A Jewish father of two Air Force Academy cadets sued the Air Force on Thursday, claiming senior officers and cadets illegally imposed Christianity on others at the school.

The lawsuit was filed in federal court by Mikey Weinstein, an academy graduate and outspoken critic of the school's handling of religion.

Over the past decade or more, the lawsuit claims, academy leaders have fostered an environment of religious intolerance at the Colorado school, in violation of the First Amendment.

Weinstein has one son who graduated from the academy last year and another who is a junior there. Both were subjected to anti-Semitic slurs from evangelical Christian cadets, he said.

Weinstein, who lives in Albuquerque, claims that evangelical Christians at the school have coerced attendance at religious services and prayers at official events, among other things.

"It's a shocking disgrace that I had to file this thing," he told The Associated Press.

An Air Force spokesman in Washington, Lt. Col. Frank Smolinsky, declined to discuss specifics of the suit, but said the Air Force "is committed to defending the rights of all our men and women, whatever their beliefs."

Members of the Air Force Academy's Board of Visitors declined to comment. The oversight panel, which includes members of Congress, met in Washington on Thursday.

Cadets, watchdog groups and a former chaplain at the academy have alleged that religious intolerance is widespread at the school. On Aug. 29, the Air Force issued guidelines discouraging public prayer at official functions and urging commanders to be sensitive about personal expressions of religious faith.

There have been complaints at the academy that a Jewish cadet was told the Holocaust was revenge for the death of Jesus and that another Jew was called a Christ killer by a fellow cadet. A banner in the football team's locker room read: "I am a Christian first and last ... I am a member of Team Jesus Christ."

Also, there have been complaints that cadets were pressured to attend chapel, that academy staffers put New Testament verses in government e-mail, and that cadets used the e-mail system to encourage others to see the Mel Gibson movie "The Passion of the Christ."

The lawsuit, which names the Air Force and its acting secretary, Pete Geren, as defendants, asks the Air Force to prohibit its members — including chaplains — from evangelizing and proselytizing or in any related way attempting "to involuntarily convert, pressure, exhort or persuade a fellow member of the USAF to accept their own religious beliefs while on duty."

The lawsuit claims that despite the new guidelines, Air Force officials "have made it clear that they have no intent to actually remedy the unconstitutional practices."

The lawsuit cites a remark by Brig. General Cecil R. Richardson, the Air Force deputy chief of chaplains. "We will not proselytize, but we reserve the right to evangelize the unchurched," he said in a New York Times article published in July.

The Air Force and Geren have refused "to make a clear statement that this is not its policy," despite repeated requests from Weinstein, the lawsuit says.

In June, an Air Force task force said it found no overt religious discrimination but observed a lack of sensitivity among some and confusion over what is permissible in sharing one's faith.

After a July visit to the academy, a team from the Yale Divinity School issued a report last month saying it found lingering problems among the academy's chaplains, whose activities may conflict with the goals of school leaders and the Air Force overall.
 
Tigger_Magic said:
WDWHound, cardaway's 1st article was from the NYT. The 2nd link was to an AP article posted on Yahoo. The quotes came from the AP article (see below)
Ah! Thanks. I missed that entirely. Once again my astonishing powers of observation are demonstrated with startling clarity.
 
6_Time_Momma said:
I guess I must be missing something? The pastors are not allowed to talk to people about their religion if they know they are not affiliated with any particular religion? I really don't understand what is so bad about them encouraging someone to attend a certain service. If they say no, and then the chaplains continue, then I see a problem, but just to try and talk to them initially?


::yes:: IA.
 
bicker said:
A military officer's right to practice their faith ends before it encounters another member of the military who has the right to not have their beliefs questioned.

A chaplain is an military officer but he is charged with different responsibilities. He doesn't give orders, he provides spiritual comfort and consolation. Meetings with the chaplain are "off the record" and confidential. If his religion dictates that he should spread the Word of God to those who he sees may be floundering, he is doing his job. No soldier is required to heed the chaplain or to even see the chaplain.
 
I don't see it as "stealing sheep", although the NY Times certainly would. I see it as attempting to lead sheep to safer pastures and away from the wolves.
 
"They say the bad guys we're fighting, the jihadists, represent a theocratic, fascistic movement," Weinstein said. "If the United States Air Force, probably the most technologically lethal organization ever assembled by man, has a policy of evangelizing 'the unchurched,' you tell me how that makes us look."
 
Status
Not open for further replies.


Disney Vacation Planning. Free. Done for You.
Our Authorized Disney Vacation Planners are here to provide personalized, expert advice, answer every question, and uncover the best discounts. Let Dreams Unlimited Travel take care of all the details, so you can sit back, relax, and enjoy a stress-free vacation.
Start Your Disney Vacation
Disney EarMarked Producer






DIS Facebook DIS youtube DIS Instagram DIS Pinterest DIS Tiktok DIS Twitter

Add as a preferred source on Google

Back
Top Bottom