Advice on issue with Plumbing Contractor

[crazymomof4]

Live in NJ.
Hired a plumber in April to fix "main stack" in my rental property. Plumber asked for a large "deposit" and justified this by giving me several worst case scenarios of potentially very involved work ("I won't know what I'm dealing with until I start opening the walls up"). So I gave him a $5000 check which he cashed. It ended up the job was no where near as complicated as he said it could have been. I've been asking him for an invoice for the work performed and he's yet to provide me with one. Only saying on the phone that he owes me a refund of $72 from the $5000. So he claims the job is valued at $4928. I showed pix of the work done to another licensed, very experienced plumber and he stated "That's a $1200 job. Materials would be $50-100".
I'm still trying to get the plumber who did the work to give me the invoice explaining how he arrives at $4928 but he's not supplying it and I don't know why. He has my $5000 so what does he care? He has yet to even refund the $72 he says he owes me.

If he isn't open to negotiating this price down to at least close to industry standards, and refunding me what is fair, what recourse would be best? Small Claims Court or filing a complaint with the Division of Consumer Affairs, Office of Consumer Protection or something else?
Thanks in advance for any input.

 

[barkley]

is he licensed? if so pursue through the licensing authority in your jurisdiction. beyond that-small claims court?

 

[sam_gordon]

You willingly give the guy a check for $5000 with no written estimate, no 2nd, 3rd, or 4th opinions, no check of references, then want to sue in small claims court? For what?

Sorry, I see this as an expensive mistake on your part.

 

[sam_gordon]

Live in NJ.
Hired a plumber in April to fix "main stack" in my rental property. Plumber asked for a large "deposit" and justified this by giving me several worst case scenarios of potentially very involved work ("I won't know what I'm dealing with until I start opening the walls up"). So I gave him a $5000 check which he cashed. It ended up the job was no where near as complicated as he said it could have been. I've been asking him for an invoice for the work performed and he's yet to provide me with one. Only saying on the phone that he owes me a refund of $72 from the $5000. So he claims the job is valued at $4928. I showed pix of the work done to another licensed, very experienced plumber and he stated "That's a $1200 job. Materials would be $50-100".
I'm still trying to get the plumber who did the work to give me the invoice explaining how he arrives at $4928 but he's not supplying it and I don't know why. He has my $5000 so what does he care? He has yet to even refund the $72 he says he owes me.

If he isn't open to negotiating this price down to at least close to industry standards, and refunding me what is fair, what recourse would be best? Small Claims Court or filing a complaint with the Division of Consumer Affairs, Office of Consumer Protection or something else?
Thanks in advance for any input.

Oh, "The rule".

 

[fhtpdw20]

Other options: Better Business Report filing, if you suspect fraud, your state's Attorney General's office, and then there is media as bad review or your local tv station's consumer action line.

 

[Kirby]

Do you have a State Plumbing Board that you could call and report him to?

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

You might try contacting your local Crime Stoppers with your local news if they have one. That usually gets the ball rolling plus they have resources you may not have. They also sometimes find out a person has had run-ins with other people.

Other than that you could try going through your state.

I agree without a written estimate your options may be limited and wasn't likely the best course of action. I'm a bit confused though as a deposit is normally not a pay in full situation. From the sounds of it this plumber wanted it all up front and at least going with your other estimate gave a random number that would net him a bigger profit. Did you wonder if $5,000 sounded too high for a deposit? I mean that would mean the work was more than $5,000.

 

[sam_gordon]

if you suspect fraud, your state's Attorney General's office

You might try contacting your local Crime Stoppers with your local news if they have one. That usually gets the ball rolling plus they have resources you may not have. They also sometimes find out a person has had run-ins with other people.

Sorry, I don't understand. What did the contractor do that's possibly illegal? I get not returning the $72 refund. Other than that? I'm not following.

 

[fhtpdw20]

Hey Sam,
I don't know all of the ins and outs of the OP deals. I don't know if anything illegal happened but if OP feels something borders on shady, the state Attorney General Office should have some resource that deals with licensing requirements. Again, I don't know much on the situation, but most major home improvements in my area also require permits from the city and inspections to make sure upgrades/repairs are done properly.

 

[_19disnA]

Legit contractors will typically ask for 1/2 of the money upfront to cover the cost of materials. If the total job was expected to be ~$10,000 then I would have gotten at least 3 estimates from different companies. Too late now, but you should have gotten quotes from reputable contractors who were recommended by others or those providing references if you don't live in that area. For any job that large there should ALWAYS be a written estimate. Written estimates allow you to compare the quotes from different companies to see if they are comparable and to avoid being overcharged.

Part of the reason to never pay 100% upfront is avoid the situation you now have. They have your money and really have no incentive to work with you to resolve this. No idea if they simply overcharged you or if they are running some kind of scam. Pursuing various legal remedies will now cost you more time/money.

 

[ronandannette]

Legit contractors will typically ask for 1/2 of the money upfront to cover the cost of materials. If the total job was expected to be ~$10,000 then I would have gotten at least 3 estimates from different companies. Too late now, but you should have gotten quotes from reputable contractors who were recommended by others or those providing references if you don't live in that area. For any job that large there should ALWAYS be a written estimate. Written estimates allow you to compare the quotes from different companies to see if they are comparable and to avoid being overcharged.

Part of the reason to never pay 100% upfront is avoid the situation you now have. They have your money and really have no incentive to work with you to resolve this. No idea if they simply overcharged you or if they are running some kind of scam. Pursuing various legal remedies will now cost you more time/money.

Agree with all of this, unfortunately. But the OP has definitely been taken advantage of by a predatory contractor who found an easy mark. Is it illegal to over-charge somebody by 300% if they willingly pay? Probably not but I think we can all agree it's egregiously unethical behaviour.

If the amount falls within the limits of the local small-claims court, I'd be tempted to get a few Affidavits from reputable contractors giving expert opinions on the scope and customary fees for the work and give it a go. Not too much time or money involved in at least trying.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Sorry, I don't understand. What did the contractor do that's possibly illegal? I get not returning the $72 refund. Other than that? I'm not following.

Precisely that the OP isn't getting a response from the plumber even after saying they owe them a refund. You do realize that Crime Stoppers isn't used exclusively for illegal things. Often in my area it's used to go to bat for people, to help get the word out on shady people (and there isn't enough info to say that's what is the issue with the OP), to help get results when a person has tried and tried and got nothing.

 

[msmayor]

The time to negotiate the price was before you handed him a check for $5,000. What you have now is remorse by overpaying for work done. Courts are not going to negate what is essentially a contract you willingly entered in to by handing over that check.

 

[sam_gordon]

Precisely that the OP isn't getting a response from the plumber even after saying they owe them a refund. You do realize that Crime Stoppers isn't used exclusively for illegal things. Often in my area it's used to go to bat for people, to help get the word out on shady people (and there isn't enough info to say that's what is the issue with the OP), to help get results when a person has tried and tried and got nothing.

Actually, I'm pretty sure Crime Stoppers IS regarding illegal activities. A TV station may have an "On Your Side" team or something similar that might help with this. BUT, based just on the information provided in the OP, it really doesn't even sound like an "over charge" situation. The OP agreed to the work at the price quoted. Yes, the contractor may have charged more than the going rate, but that's not illegal. It sounds like the contractor did the work.

Personally, a $5,000 down payment request would have floored me and I would have wanted to get more estimates to see if that was reasonable.

 

[mjkacmom]

Actually, I'm pretty sure Crime Stoppers IS regarding illegal activities. A TV station may have an "On Your Side" team or something similar that might help with this. BUT, based just on the information provided in the OP, it really doesn't even sound like an "over charge" situation. The OP agreed to the work at the price quoted. Yes, the contractor may have charged more than the going rate, but that's not illegal. It sounds like the contractor did the work.

Personally, a $5,000 down payment request would have floored me and I would have wanted to get more estimates to see if that was reasonable.

It would depend on what the work was expected to cost. We had some masonry done this summer, 4 payments of $8500 each.

 

[prairie_girl]

Agree with all of this, unfortunately. But the OP has definitely been taken advantage of by a predatory contractor who found an easy mark. Is it illegal to over-charge somebody by 300% if they willingly pay? Probably not but I think we can all agree it's egregiously unethical behaviour.

If the amount falls within the limits of the local small-claims court, I'd be tempted to get a few Affidavits from reputable contractors giving expert opinions on the scope and customary fees for the work and give it a go. Not too much time or money involved in at least trying.

I don’t know if it’s the same everywhere, but here, any decision in small claims is not legally binding. A few years ago, I considered taking my ex to small claims for back child support. I dropped it when I found out it would only be a moral victory.

 

[spiders]

I would never give a contractor money up front. The only thing I would do is purchase materials. I get it, everyone starts somewhere so if they don’t have the money to bear the cost of materials up front then that’s fine. But I’m going to purchase those materials and those materials will be delivered directly to me only.

Hard lesson to learn.

 

[sam_gordon]

It would depend on what the work was expected to cost. We had some masonry done this summer, 4 payments of $8500 each.

I usually grossly underestimate what a job would cost. A $5000 down payment request would have made me question and therefore get other estimates at least. I hope you didn't sign a $35K contract with someone you don't know without a written estimate or comparable quotes.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Actually, I'm pretty sure Crime Stoppers IS regarding illegal activities. A TV station may have an "On Your Side" team or something similar that might help with this. BUT, based just on the information provided in the OP, it really doesn't even sound like an "over charge" situation. The OP agreed to the work at the price quoted. Yes, the contractor may have charged more than the going rate, but that's not illegal. It sounds like the contractor did the work.

Personally, a $5,000 down payment request would have floored me and I would have wanted to get more estimates to see if that was reasonable.

This is semantics. We're talking about the same thing, you should be able to see by my comment I'm describing someone's local news that helps in these cases. Nowhere in my comment did I say illegal, you're just stuck in that. Different places call them different things, but I never said what the plumber did was illegal. ETA: one of ours is called Problem Solvers, I've seen Crime Stoppers and a few other catchy names, same kinda citizen helping.

As for your last point...yeah that's why I said

I'm a bit confused though as a deposit is normally not a pay in full situation. From the sounds of it this plumber wanted it all up front and at least going with your other estimate gave a random number that would net him a bigger profit. Did you wonder if $5,000 sounded too high for a deposit? I mean that would mean the work was more than $5,000.

Really don't get what your hubbub is with my comment. Perhaps we just have entirely different local news stuff because in my area the OP's situation is perfect for what they do. What they could help with is getting the refund the plumber themselves said the OP was owed and since the OP has tried and failed to get a response that's why I suggested the local news.

 

[martikus]

The time to negotiate the price was before you handed him a check for $5,000. What you have now is remorse by overpaying for work done. Courts are not going to negate what is essentially a contract you willingly entered in to by handing over that check.

agree with this. A very costly mistake. Next time get detailed quotes and at least 2 of them.