Advice on issue with Plumbing Contractor

[sam_gordon]

This is semantics. We're talking about the same thing, you should be able to see by my comment I'm describing someone's local news that helps in these cases. Nowhere in my comment did I say illegal, you're just stuck in that. Different places call them different things, but I never said what the plumber did was illegal. ETA: one of ours is called Problem Solvers, I've seen Crime Stoppers and a few other catchy names, same kinda citizen helping.

As for your last point...yeah that's why I said


Really don't get what your hubbub is with my comment. Perhaps we just have entirely different local news stuff because in my area the OP's situation is perfect for what they do. What they could help with is getting the refund the plumber themselves said the OP was owed and since the OP has tried and failed to get a response that's why I suggested the local news.

Not everything I write is about you or your posts, even if you're quoted. I comment to what I quote and then expand from there.

Personally, I see "Crime Stoppers" and "Problem Solvers"/"On Your Side" AS different things. Using "Crime Stoppers" imply a crime has been committed. Yes, a TV station "Problem Solve" MIGHT try to help get a $72 refund from a $5000 deposit. I guess it's worth a call. My GUESS is they'll say "sorry, can't help you". I don't think anyone is going to be able to get the contractor to renegotiate the price.

There are plenty of TV show "gotchas" where contractors (whether automotive, plumbing, garage door repair, etc) are "set up" with what should be a simple, cheap fix, and then confronted when they advocate/push a unnecessary expensive repair. I don't think I've seen one where the expensive repair is actually completed & paid for, and the contractor is then shamed into giving back most of the money.

 

[Skywalker]

I showed pix of the work done to another licensed, very experienced plumber and he stated "That's a $1200 job. Materials would be $50-100".

Well, easy for him to say! Its easy to come along later and criticize someone else's work. Can you get a third or even fourth opinion on it because right now it is just he said/he said. I think you are right to keep asking for the invoice, that will give you more to go on as to what the charges entail.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Not everything I write is about you or your posts, even if you're quoted. I comment to what I quote and then expand from there.

Personally, I see "Crime Stoppers" and "Problem Solvers"/"On Your Side" AS different things. Using "Crime Stoppers" imply a crime has been committed. Yes, a TV station "Problem Solve" MIGHT try to help get a $72 refund from a $5000 deposit. I guess it's worth a call. My GUESS is they'll say "sorry, can't help you". I don't think anyone is going to be able to get the contractor to renegotiate the price.

There are plenty of TV show "gotchas" where contractors (whether automotive, plumbing, garage door repair, etc) are "set up" with what should be a simple, cheap fix, and then confronted when they advocate/push a unnecessary expensive repair. I don't think I've seen one where the expensive repair is actually completed & paid for, and the contractor is then shamed into giving back most of the money.

You should specify then if you're not speaking directly to me because your comments were addressing my exact comments. If you're speaking generally most people make sure to call that out.

In any case not worth a back and forth, agree to disagree and move on. Enjoy your day.

 

[crazymomof4]

is he licensed? if so pursue through the licensing authority in your jurisdiction. beyond that-small claims court?

Thank You. Yes. Licensed. Bonded. Insured. Master Plumber.

 

[crazymomof4]

You willingly give the guy a check for $5000 with no written estimate, no 2nd, 3rd, or 4th opinions, no check of references, then want to sue in small claims court? For what?

Sorry, I see this as an expensive mistake on your part.

OP here. This was an insurance claim. I was told by the plumber on his first visit than my best course of action was to go through a Public Adjuster. He referred me to one he's had a relationship with in the past. Through them, he submitted a written estimate for the "worst case scenario" for the claim. It was for $14,778. This included basically gutting the entire bathroom and putting it back together There was talk (between him and my adjuster), that they may petition for more if there was added work not included in the initial estimate.... like if they had to open up the wall from the outside of the house. Take off siding, etc.
Given all these possibilities $5,000 seemed reasonable for a deposit. As a homeowner I trusted the plumber and the Public Adjuster ( a former contractor) to be the experts in the field and that these were real possibilities. What knowledge do I have to say otherwise? When your surgeon says your operation *may* include this that or the other, do you sit in your hospital bed and argue that he's wrong?

As it turned out, it was the most simple fix of all the possibilities. The plumber said so on the day he started the work, opened the wall for inspection and was able to see where (in the main stack) the leak was.

The insurance settlement went into arbitration (two impartial adjusters mediated) and ended up at just $5,000. The plumber knew the amount of the settlement. The portion of the wall/tile around tub is still not closed, so I have to pay for that yet from the settlement. But he doesn't do that. So I guess he wants to keep as much of the insurance settlement as he can and so he padded his invoice (as he briefly described over the phone) to meet that. He told me on the phone that he billed me 16 hrs on one day bc he and his son worked 8 hours on one day. I have phone records indicating he called me on that day, from his landline at his office, at 10am and 1:36pm on that day. So which 8 hours did he work on that day? See why I feel ripped off?

I didn't include all this detail in my OP because it seemed extraneous to my pointed question and I didn't want to be verbose. But now I see it is needed.

 

[crazymomof4]

Well, easy for him to say! Its easy to come along later and criticize someone else's work. Can you get a third or even fourth opinion on it because right now it is just he said/he said. I think you are right to keep asking for the invoice, that will give you more to go on as to what the charges entail.

I have every intention of PAYING (I wouldn't ask for them to give "free" estimates bc that's not the case here) 2 more licensed, professional plumbing contractors for written statements saying what their valuation of the job is. I had my husband ask the first one (a friend who is second generation plumber, did residential for decades but now is only commercial plumbing) for a ballpark. Then, I want to give my plumber the chance to negotiate with me (that's fair, right?) If he doesn't, then I will call the two other plumbers for their valuation. The wall remains open, exposing ALL of the work done and materials used, so no guessing.
The advice I was asking for is where to go from that point. NJ Div of Consumer Affairs or Small Claims Court.

 

[crazymomof4]

You might try contacting your local Crime Stoppers with your local news if they have one. That usually gets the ball rolling plus they have resources you may not have. They also sometimes find out a person has had run-ins with other people.

Other than that you could try going through your state.

I agree without a written estimate your options may be limited and wasn't likely the best course of action. I'm a bit confused though as a deposit is normally not a pay in full situation. From the sounds of it this plumber wanted it all up front and at least going with your other estimate gave a random number that would net him a bigger profit. Did you wonder if $5,000 sounded too high for a deposit? I mean that would mean the work was more than $5,000.

Please see my update with added info. There was an estimate but it was for an insurance claim and so was for the highest possible amount... the worst case scenario...... Public Adjuster and Plumber told me that is how it's done because if you submit an estimate for the simplest fix and then the job ends up being MORE complicated, it's more difficult to justify the added cost to the insurance company and get them to issue another check after they agreed to a certain cost.
What I am asking from the plumber now is the *actual* breakdown of the work done.... what ended up being the simple fix.

 

[crazymomof4]

Sorry, I don't understand. What did the contractor do that's possibly illegal? I get not returning the $72 refund. Other than that? I'm not following.

Please read my updated posts and see if you can "follow" that.

 

[crazymomof4]

Legit contractors will typically ask for 1/2 of the money upfront to cover the cost of materials. If the total job was expected to be ~$10,000 then I would have gotten at least 3 estimates from different companies. Too late now, but you should have gotten quotes from reputable contractors who were recommended by others or those providing references if you don't live in that area. For any job that large there should ALWAYS be a written estimate. Written estimates allow you to compare the quotes from different companies to see if they are comparable and to avoid being overcharged.

Part of the reason to never pay 100% upfront is avoid the situation you now have. They have your money and really have no incentive to work with you to resolve this. No idea if they simply overcharged you or if they are running some kind of scam. Pursuing various legal remedies will now cost you more time/money.

Please see my updated posts. This was an insurance claim. I went through a public adjuster (a reputable, long-standing local firm). The adjuster assigned to me and the plumber met and discussed the possibilities of what the job would entail. The plumber then submitted his estimate of $14,778 to the adjuster for the claim to proceed, with the understanding (according to both plumber and adjuster) that if it ended up costing more then they would try to file for added charges but that would be difficult. I didn't think $5000 was an outlandish deposit for a job that could end up being $15000. They discussed with me the possibility of opening up the outside of the house (removing siding, etc) to access the main stack. They told me the 2nd floor tile tub surround may need to be demolished ( in addition to a section of the first floor tub surround) to access the it if the leak was higher up.

Do you all see why I wrote the check for $5000?

It didn't end up being any of these scenarios. He cut a 4'x 18" section of wall and tile away from the first floor bath only and was able to repair the stack. So I am asking for the fair portion of my "in case" deposit back, so I can pay for the wall and tile to be closed up and my tenants to not have to live with black plastic covering the hole in their shower wall. That's all.

 

[crazymomof4]

The time to negotiate the price was before you handed him a check for $5,000. What you have now is remorse by overpaying for work done. Courts are not going to negate what is essentially a contract you willingly entered in to by handing over that check.

This was an insurance claim. Please see my posts with updated info. The original estimate submitted for the claim, through my public adjuster was for the worst case scenario and it included (this is in writing) the possibility of essentially a complete demo of the first floor bathroom. I gave him the deposit based on that estimate ($14,778). It ended up being the simplest fix of all the possible scenarios he and the public adjuster originally presented to me. Now I'd like a refund for the amount of my deposit that wasn't earned by labor and materials actually used.

 

[crazymomof4]

Oh, "The rule".

??????????????

 

[crazymomof4]

Agree with all of this, unfortunately. But the OP has definitely been taken advantage of by a predatory contractor who found an easy mark. Is it illegal to over-charge somebody by 300% if they willingly pay? Probably not but I think we can all agree it's egregiously unethical behaviour.

If the amount falls within the limits of the local small-claims court, I'd be tempted to get a few Affidavits from reputable contractors giving expert opinions on the scope and customary fees for the work and give it a go. Not too much time or money involved in at least trying.

That is my plan. I'd gladly pay these reputable contractors for their time. I was simply asking (in my OP) where to go with my affidavits and other evidence I have..... small claims or NJ Div of Consumer Affairs or another route.

 

[crazymomof4]

Not relevant here but relevant to ME.....
my mom (a widow) died. Left me the house that's been in our family since 1948. I spent a year emptying the house of stuff collected by 3 now deceased family members who never threw anything away. Then spent another year and a lot of money refurbishing the house so that it could be a rental. I got great tenants in the house and felt like I could finally breathe again. SIX WEEKS after they moved in this leak was discovered. This is all very frustrating and anxiety producing. Have a heart with how you reply, please.

 

[starry_solo]

You go through your insurance company.
Where did the public adjuster come from?
Where did the plumber come from?

I'm a bit confused. When I go through my insurance company, they send the contractor to do the estimate. They don't pay until the work is done, no deposit is owed. I don't even pay my deductible until the work is done.

Are the public adjuster and plumber in cahoots?

 

[crazymomof4]

You go through your insurance company.
Where did the public adjuster come from?
Where did the plumber come from?

I'm a bit confused. When I go through my insurance company, they send the contractor to do the estimate. They don't pay until the work is done, no deposit is owed. I don't even pay my deductible until the work is done.

Are the public adjuster and plumber in cahoots?

I had never submitted a homeowners claim, large or small, in 36 years of owning my own home. I had no idea how this worked. I had to inform myself by researching what a public adjuster does. You could do the same. I don't want to offer my explanation as I fear it may be picked apart and criticized here.

 

[ronandannette]

I don’t know if it’s the same everywhere, but here, any decision in small claims is not legally binding. A few years ago, I considered taking my ex to small claims for back child support. I dropped it when I found out it would only be a moral victory.

Don't you have maintenance enforcement in your province?

 

[NYCgrrl]

Sounds like you were well rooked. My suggestion would be to hire an atty for further dealings with the plumber and adjuster. it’ll take serious effort to get your money back.

Unlike others, I give a deposit of 1/4 to 1/3 to start work. Good luck.

 

[starry_solo]

I had never submitted a homeowners claim, large or small, in 36 years of owning my own home. I had no idea how this worked. I had to inform myself by researching what a public adjuster does. You could do the same. I don't want to offer my explanation as I fear it may be picked apart and criticized here.

Ok. I checked what a public adjuster does.
Based on what you wrote (that the plumber referred the adjuster to you), it makes me feel like they are in cahoots. I would complain to the adjuster as well, to the state licensing board for plumbers and the state licensing board for adjusters.

I never submitted a homeowners insurance claim until I had a roof leak twice in the same place (and the second one was after the roofing contractor the insurance company sent said there was nothing wrong).

We have public adjusters in CA too but I would never hire one until I felt my insurance company was scamming me (which they wouldn't do) and even then, I know a few attorneys that would likely write me a letter for free to my insurance company if I ever had an issue with them. I've been with the same insurance company for over 25 years.

 

[prairie_girl]

Don't you have maintenance enforcement in your province?

Don’t get me started on Maintenance Enforcement. They are useless. One thing I wish Canada would adopt from the US is sticking the deadbeat in jail after missing a payment or two.

The day my daughter turned 18, I was owed just over 20K in back support. And, because she is 18, he gets away with it. File closed, too bad, so sad.

 

[sam_gordon]

OP here. This was an insurance claim. I was told by the plumber on his first visit than my best course of action was to go through a Public Adjuster. He referred me to one he's had a relationship with in the past. Through them, he submitted a written estimate for the "worst case scenario" for the claim. It was for $14,778. This included basically gutting the entire bathroom and putting it back together There was talk (between him and my adjuster), that they may petition for more if there was added work not included in the initial estimate.... like if they had to open up the wall from the outside of the house. Take off siding, etc.
Given all these possibilities $5,000 seemed reasonable for a deposit. As a homeowner I trusted the plumber and the Public Adjuster ( a former contractor) to be the experts in the field and that these were real possibilities. What knowledge do I have to say otherwise? When your surgeon says your operation *may* include this that or the other, do you sit in your hospital bed and argue that he's wrong?

As it turned out, it was the most simple fix of all the possibilities. The plumber said so on the day he started the work, opened the wall for inspection and was able to see where (in the main stack) the leak was.

The insurance settlement went into arbitration (two impartial adjusters mediated) and ended up at just $5,000. The plumber knew the amount of the settlement. The portion of the wall/tile around tub is still not closed, so I have to pay for that yet from the settlement. But he doesn't do that. So I guess he wants to keep as much of the insurance settlement as he can and so he padded his invoice (as he briefly described over the phone) to meet that. He told me on the phone that he billed me 16 hrs on one day bc he and his son worked 8 hours on one day. I have phone records indicating he called me on that day, from his landline at his office, at 10am and 1:36pm on that day. So which 8 hours did he work on that day? See why I feel ripped off?

I didn't include all this detail in my OP because it seemed extraneous to my pointed question and I didn't want to be verbose. But now I see it is needed.

It does change the story and, IMO, points to the plumber & adjuster tag teaming for what could be insurance fraud. I think you need to call your insurance company, explain what happened, and see what they suggest you do at this point.

Please read my updated posts and see if you can "follow" that.

Do you all see why I wrote the check for $5000?

The update does change the story, but leads to new questions for me (that you're free to not answer)...
* Why did you not talk to your insurance company and accept their adjuster?
* Do you have a receipt for the $5000? Turn that in to insurance and let them battle the amount.

When I have had ANY insurance claim (homeowners or auto), I have only had to pay the deductible. And that didn't happen until AFTER the work was complete. Of course, the insurance helped us find repair contractors (and yes, we were welcome to find our own). If it matters, our homeowners claim was following a toilet valve breaking while we were out of town and flooding much of the 1st floor and leaking into storage in the basement. We needed restoration people and new carpet.

ETA: And no, I didn't know how things were supposed to work at the time. I called the insurance company (after turning off the water) and said "what do we do?" They guided us through everything.