ADHD in Teen girl or just typical teen?

You just have to forget the word "normal".

I had/have severe depression (Its still there but I've been managing it for awhile). When I did get a ADHD diagnosis it wasn't until I was 17 but the symptoms looking back started around age 10. The depression hid the symptoms of the ADHD. The way I see it, what you're describing sounds like when I used to try to explain my issues to people. They'd say "Oh yeah me too" but they'd have no idea how deep or real things were for me versus what they felt, not to play the victim. Its just a matter of feeling sad isn't always depression, trouble sleeping isn't always insomnia, being distracted isn't always ADHD.

Also having that diagnosis didn't change anything for me. It was never a crutch, an excuse, especially as I got older. At school maybe it makes a difference but going to a manager at work and telling them that won't do anyone any favors. Be it true ADHD or just getting distracted, you have to learn how to deal with it.

Teachers make a difference for a lot of people without attentive issues. For me it was an extreme issue where certain teachers and classes worked for me and I'd ace them, and others particularly those with a lot of homework or projects I'd nearly fail (and did fail a few). Other people has similar issues to me but not as severe, its just how one person learns versus the other.
 
I've been a high school teacher for 44 years, and your daughter sounds very normal to me. The majority of teenagers have mood swings and are more focused in classes where they are engaged and interested. Life is stressful for many high school kids, and too many adults don't realize it. We expect them to make good grades in all of their classes, take honors and AP classes, participate in sports and other extra curricular activities, be involved in community service projects, help with chores at home, have friends, and the list goes on. Few highly motivated high school kids get enough sleep because there isn't time for sleep, homework, and everything else they do. Please don't medicate your daughter unless her symptoms become much worse than they are now. Maybe she just doesn't like certain teachers or certain classes and prefers to spend her limited free time pursuing her own interests. As long as she makes decent grades and has a good attitude most if the time, she probably is a normal teenager.
 
Yep. 6:02 bus to catch.

What time does school get out and does she come straight home?

If it would work, do you think it would help if she took a 45 minute nap after school? It may refresh her a bit, making the evening homework go a little faster- it could actually clear up the time she needs for the nap in the first place but now she would have 45 minutes of sleep instead of 45 minutes studying less efficiently.
This whole 6:02 morning bus issue is why some high schools for years have debated doing late starts. Teens need more sleep, the 5am days being the toughest is a sign of that.
 
What time does school get out and does she come straight home?

If it would work, do you think it would help if she took a 45 minute nap after school? It may refresh her a bit, making the evening homework go a little faster- it could actually clear up the time she needs for the nap in the first place but now she would have 45 minutes of sleep instead of 45 minutes studying less efficiently.
This whole 6:02 morning bus issue is why some high schools for years have debated doing late starts. Teens need more sleep, the 5am days being the toughest is a sign of that.

She is usually home by 4..have tried the nap but it is a NIGHTMARE to get her up from it!!!:eek: Good thinking though...I wish she had a later start too...
 

I just wanted to stop by and say - sounds like regular 14-year-old. I'm obviously not a trained MD, but having witnessed both my baby sister and now DD going through being 14, I'd say it's par for the course. Both seemed more distracted and "zoned-out" at 14 than before and after.

I seem to remember reading that kids that age "grow their brain" (connections), and that's why. But that might be just my fawlty memory plaing me a trick :confused3

But PLEASE try to find time for her to sleep more - my dd sleeps 8,5-9 hours on weeknights, but based on my gut feeling she should be getting more sleep than that, even. Your dd being difficult to wake up from a nap seems to suggest she needs more sleep.

She sound like a STELLAR kid, so please stop worrying :thumbsup2
 
I just wanted to stop by and say - sounds like regular 14-year-old. I'm obviously not a trained MD, but having witnessed both my baby sister and now DD going through being 14, I'd say it's par for the course. Both seemed more distracted and "zoned-out" at 14 than before and after.

I seem to remember reading that kids that age "grow their brain" (connections), and that's why. But that might be just my fawlty memory plaing me a trick :confused3

But PLEASE try to find time for her to sleep more - my dd sleeps 8,5-9 hours on weeknights, but based on my gut feeling she should be getting more sleep than that, even. Your dd being difficult to wake up from a nap seems to suggest she needs more sleep.

She sound like a STELLAR kid, so please stop worrying :thumbsup2

OP AGAIN. Thank you! We had our follow up at the doctor yesterday and the teachers do not think she has ADHD doctor still unconvinced. She feels she shows symptoms at home based on scales I completed but school doesn't support it. So I am really watching DD carefully to see if she is as daydreamy forgetful as I scaled her to be. Packing a hot lunch for her this past 10 days has been a God send!!!!! (She is gluten allergic so can't eat school food). She seems much happier coming home and better spirits etc. WE had conferences yesterday and all the teachers sang her praises and none supported ADHD in follow up conversation. The Biology teacher who got the ball rolling on the daydream comments said it has been much improved since she has moved to the front etc.

All teachers did say she has high anxiety and seems unsure of speaking out loud but that is something we are going to work on. But for now at least the doctor is placing ADHD on the back burner....

Thanks all!!!! And to all of those that posted the sleep, yes I sooo agree. But 7.5 hours is best she can do M - F and that is a 9:30 bedtime....Trying to back it up a little...
 
Just happened to see this one. You mentioned that almost all of her scores on the IQ test were 99%tile. If this is truly the case, then she certainly scored in the gifted range, and possibly even in the highly or exceptionally gifted range.

ADHD can look very different in highly gifted individuals. (Normal, also looks pretty different...) Often for individuals who are "twice-exceptional" (gifted and disabled), the two areas of exceptionality can almost cancel each other out so that your daughter doesn't appear especially gifted or especially disabled - because the two conditions mask each other.

You might want to do a bit of research into this area and see if it fits your situation.
 
Hi, sorry for the brevity as I am at AK right now! Haven't read all the posts, so sorry if this was also already stated...

I'm a licensed clinical psychologist and I will tell you that in my experience, the only kids that get dx as teens were having attention/behavior problems from early elementary but were dismissed in some way (usually not on purpose and parents feel very guilty when it is discovered that they are ADHD and not just "lazy", underachievers, or could "just try harder")

ADHD doesn't just appear at age 14. Actually one of the criteria is that you need symptoms before age 7.

One more thing is that anxiety is often mistaken for ADHD. Is she worried about school, stressed out, anything happening in the family or with friends that has her worried?

Also, it could purely be a math disorder. Since she is so superior in IQ, God (or whoever we believe in) had to punt on something! :)

Sent from my iPhone using DISBoards
 
Also if she's off the charts in IQ it's likely that (even at a challenging private school) she's not being challenged enough and is bored. Maybe see if somebody can work with her to test into higher level classes that could be more stimulating. It sounded from what you posted in her IQ and such that she is a "genius" and may be beyond what her classes provide.
 
OP here!Thanks for the additional thoughts. I took her back to see the ADHD expert doctor and I had suggested I would be willing to run the battery of tests but she felt it was unnecessary as per her this would screen for leaning disabilities and other various things she did not feel she had.

I told her I felt it was a maturity issue. The inability to wait a minute to get my attention, the cutting me off in mid sentence with random thoughts although she is catching herself better on this lately....I think it is part of the only child I AM THE QUEEN mentality. It is her short term working memory/storage that was the issue (it was 99 and while not LOW for a girl her age, it was low for her IQ).

I think she is backburnering the ADHD diagnosis for now and we will see how it plays out. DD HATES biology and it is an AP class and she just got a 94 on the test from the teacher who initially called to tell me she drifts, bored, etc. So once I sat her down and talked with her about "you gotta stay in tune even in classes you are bored with" this seem to sink in with her. So I would argue that if you HAD ADHD I don't think you could TUNE IN on demand..She does struggle with math though (gets a high B) but works at that hard and honestly what she gets on Monday, by Thursday has to refresh again in Math. But I can't seem to get any help on learning disability in math....might just relate to that short term working memory.....
 
Registered after years of lurking, just to reply to this thread, since scottmel, what you've said about your daughter sounds so familiar.

The most common "learning disability in math" is called dyscalculia (it's like dyslexia, only for numbers) -- you'll probably have more luck searching for that term. There's a real tendency these days for educators, learning consultants, and child development experts to diagnose ADHD-inattentive or executive functioning issues instead of dyscalculia, since dyscalculia is still very poorly understood. If her biggest issues (the ones that don't stem from boredom) are only with pure mathematics and the math-related areas of her science classes, it's entirely possible she is struggling with imperfect workarounds for a mild-to-medium case of dyscalculia.

The biggest symptoms I have:

* Numbers move around on the page for me while I'm reading them unless I keep a finger underneath them or read them out loud.

* I flip 3 and 8 a lot (think "83", write "38"), and to a lesser extent 1/5/9.

* I can't accurately copy a string of digits more than 3 digits long unless the digits are comma-separated, and it's very hard to turn groups of verbal numbers into written ones and vice versa. (That is to say, if someone recites their phone number for me to write down in three groups of 3/3/4 digits with pauses in between, I have to treat each group separately, it takes me a few seconds to turn what they're saying into something I can write down, and if the numbers are said at 'normal' speed I can't retain the area code long enough to write it down if someone has already moved on to saying the exchange, etc. This is the part that gets diagnosed as short-term working-memory deficit a lot. It's not. Or rather, it is, it's just specific to numbers.)

* I have serious problems with orders-of-magnitude when looking at numbers. For instance, if I see the number "14,000" and I need to say it out loud, it has equal odds of coming out of my mouth as "fourteen hundred" and "fourteen thousand", and I won't notice the error if I say "fourteen hundred".

* I can't do anything past the simplest calculations accurately without a calculator or counting on my fingers. 7 times 8? I do not know right now if that's 52 or 56; both sound about equally likely to me. (Having punched it into the calculator: yeah, if you'd asked me to commit to one of the two answers, I would have picked the wrong one.) When calculators were forbidden on math tests, I often had to resort to drawing out dots in the margins of the test and counting them for any multiplication past a certain point.

* A bunch of more subtle problems relating to ability to perform accurate ballpark estimates of what an answer is likely to be. Most of the useless advice I got from people who were trying to address my "carelessness" in math classes revolved around trying to teach me to identify when an answer was so far off as to be unlikely, or when halfway steps of a calculation were likely to be way off (thus scuttering my ability to get the right final answer). I can do a bit of it, but not much at all.

I have zero problems with spatial reasoning and pattern recognition. Geometry was a blessed relief (and the first math class I ever aced).

There are workarounds I've taught myself through the years: dividing groups of numbers into very small chunks, using my thumb/a piece of paper/something to cover up the numbers I'm not working with or to break down a long string of numbers that's not comma-separated into something I can work with without overloading my brain, the aforementioned drawing-out-dots or counting on my fingers for doublechecking my basic calculations, requiring people who are reciting numbers at me for me to write down to recite them in groups of three and wait for me to write them down and read them back before moving on to the next chunk, etc. If I need to copy strings of numbers that aren't comma-separated, I will also often turn the paper upside down -- I can read words and letters upside-down about as quickly as I can right-side-up, and the perspective shift does something to circumvent the worst of the short-circuit in my brain when it comes to strings of digits. I hold my credit card up to the screen upside-down next to the space for me to type in the numbers to proofread, for instance.

There are also accomodations (for my specific manifestations, someone else's are likely to be different) that, were I to go back to school and need to take a math course, could be done by the teacher/professor. Things like being given extra time to complete things, being allowed to use a calculator even if calculators aren't usually allowed (most of the time "no calculators" in higher-level math class is intended to mean "no calculators with higher math functions" and it's common in dyscalculia accomodations for a dyscalculaic to be permitted to use a bare-bones four-function calculator), having the test paper presented in monospace font with adequate spacing around each digit (like Courier New, which is the font least likely to trigger the numbers-moving-around problem), and things like that.

If any of this sounds familiar to your daughter, just knowing that the issue exists (and therefore being reassured that no, it's NOT just laziness, it's an actual miswiring in the brain) might be as much of a profound relief for her as it was for me. If she is dyscalculaic, even if none of the doctors knows enough about it to identify it and provide enough documentation for her to be able to get accomodations from her teachers, do a bunch of reading about the disorder anyway. Many dyscalculaics have developed a number of coping mechanisms like I have, and even if one person's particular coping mechanism won't work for everyone -- the disorder is very individual -- seeing the process by which people identify their symptoms and build those coping mechanisms can probably help her do the same. (That's over and above the relief of knowing that you're not alone and it's not just carelessness, mind you.)

(My background, for context: mid-30s, identified as "profoundly gifted" in very early childhood, wholly mainstreamed in public school at my parents' insistence, never diagnosed as dyscalculaic during childhood or young adulthood and in fact didn't even find out about it until about ten years ago. Minute I heard about it, my whole life made a ridiculous amount of sense. The being bored out of my mind in mainstream classes and the dyscalculia issues were two wholly separate things, but from the outside, it looked like all the issues stemmed from being bored and careless. I have a lot of resentment built up about how my education was handled and I may be projecting like an IMAX theatre here, but since in retrospect I could have dealt with the boredom a LOT better if I'd gotten accomodations for the dyscalculia and been able to pursue my interests in engineering and computer science instead of being told there was no hope for me in STEM fields [science, technology, engineering, math] because of my math problems, I figured it was worth sharing my experience in case your daughter falls into the same categories.)
 
Registered after years of lurking, just to reply to this thread, since scottmel, what you've said about your daughter sounds so familiar.

The most common "learning disability in math" is called dyscalculia (it's like dyslexia, only for numbers) -- you'll probably have more luck searching for that term. There's a real tendency these days for educators, learning consultants, and child development experts to diagnose ADHD-inattentive or executive functioning issues instead of dyscalculia, since dyscalculia is still very poorly understood. If her biggest issues (the ones that don't stem from boredom) are only with pure mathematics and the math-related areas of her science classes, it's entirely possible she is struggling with imperfect workarounds for a mild-to-medium case of dyscalculia.

The biggest symptoms I have:

* Numbers move around on the page for me while I'm reading them unless I keep a finger underneath them or read them out loud.

* I flip 3 and 8 a lot (think "83", write "38"), and to a lesser extent 1/5/9.

* I can't accurately copy a string of digits more than 3 digits long unless the digits are comma-separated, and it's very hard to turn groups of verbal numbers into written ones and vice versa. (That is to say, if someone recites their phone number for me to write down in three groups of 3/3/4 digits with pauses in between, I have to treat each group separately, it takes me a few seconds to turn what they're saying into something I can write down, and if the numbers are said at 'normal' speed I can't retain the area code long enough to write it down if someone has already moved on to saying the exchange, etc. This is the part that gets diagnosed as short-term working-memory deficit a lot. It's not. Or rather, it is, it's just specific to numbers.)

* I have serious problems with orders-of-magnitude when looking at numbers. For instance, if I see the number "14,000" and I need to say it out loud, it has equal odds of coming out of my mouth as "fourteen hundred" and "fourteen thousand", and I won't notice the error if I say "fourteen hundred".

* I can't do anything past the simplest calculations accurately without a calculator or counting on my fingers. 7 times 8? I do not know right now if that's 52 or 56; both sound about equally likely to me. (Having punched it into the calculator: yeah, if you'd asked me to commit to one of the two answers, I would have picked the wrong one.) When calculators were forbidden on math tests, I often had to resort to drawing out dots in the margins of the test and counting them for any multiplication past a certain point.

* A bunch of more subtle problems relating to ability to perform accurate ballpark estimates of what an answer is likely to be. Most of the useless advice I got from people who were trying to address my "carelessness" in math classes revolved around trying to teach me to identify when an answer was so far off as to be unlikely, or when halfway steps of a calculation were likely to be way off (thus scuttering my ability to get the right final answer). I can do a bit of it, but not much at all.

I have zero problems with spatial reasoning and pattern recognition. Geometry was a blessed relief (and the first math class I ever aced).

There are workarounds I've taught myself through the years: dividing groups of numbers into very small chunks, using my thumb/a piece of paper/something to cover up the numbers I'm not working with or to break down a long string of numbers that's not comma-separated into something I can work with without overloading my brain, the aforementioned drawing-out-dots or counting on my fingers for doublechecking my basic calculations, requiring people who are reciting numbers at me for me to write down to recite them in groups of three and wait for me to write them down and read them back before moving on to the next chunk, etc. If I need to copy strings of numbers that aren't comma-separated, I will also often turn the paper upside down -- I can read words and letters upside-down about as quickly as I can right-side-up, and the perspective shift does something to circumvent the worst of the short-circuit in my brain when it comes to strings of digits. I hold my credit card up to the screen upside-down next to the space for me to type in the numbers to proofread, for instance.

There are also accomodations (for my specific manifestations, someone else's are likely to be different) that, were I to go back to school and need to take a math course, could be done by the teacher/professor. Things like being given extra time to complete things, being allowed to use a calculator even if calculators aren't usually allowed (most of the time "no calculators" in higher-level math class is intended to mean "no calculators with higher math functions" and it's common in dyscalculia accomodations for a dyscalculaic to be permitted to use a bare-bones four-function calculator), having the test paper presented in monospace font with adequate spacing around each digit (like Courier New, which is the font least likely to trigger the numbers-moving-around problem), and things like that.

If any of this sounds familiar to your daughter, just knowing that the issue exists (and therefore being reassured that no, it's NOT just laziness, it's an actual miswiring in the brain) might be as much of a profound relief for her as it was for me. If she is dyscalculaic, even if none of the doctors knows enough about it to identify it and provide enough documentation for her to be able to get accomodations from her teachers, do a bunch of reading about the disorder anyway. Many dyscalculaics have developed a number of coping mechanisms like I have, and even if one person's particular coping mechanism won't work for everyone -- the disorder is very individual -- seeing the process by which people identify their symptoms and build those coping mechanisms can probably help her do the same. (That's over and above the relief of knowing that you're not alone and it's not just carelessness, mind you.)

(My background, for context: mid-30s, identified as "profoundly gifted" in very early childhood, wholly mainstreamed in public school at my parents' insistence, never diagnosed as dyscalculaic during childhood or young adulthood and in fact didn't even find out about it until about ten years ago. Minute I heard about it, my whole life made a ridiculous amount of sense. The being bored out of my mind in mainstream classes and the dyscalculia issues were two wholly separate things, but from the outside, it looked like all the issues stemmed from being bored and careless. I have a lot of resentment built up about how my education was handled and I may be projecting like an IMAX theatre here, but since in retrospect I could have dealt with the boredom a LOT better if I'd gotten accomodations for the dyscalculia and been able to pursue my interests in engineering and computer science instead of being told there was no hope for me in STEM fields [science, technology, engineering, math] because of my math problems, I figured it was worth sharing my experience in case your daughter falls into the same categories.)

WOW THANK YOU!!! I have printed out your response and will go over this with DD. The issue you mention is the exact issue I wanted to have her tested for but the school had to do the full IQ eval not just a math test. When her working storage came up a little low they felt that did explain some careless in math etc. (hard to do mental math!). I will go over your note with her. I can't thank you enough for such a great detailed note. THANKS!!!!
 
Great post, keileya! Comprehensive and informative!

Just for clarification, the term "dyscalculia" is not available to clinicians in the DSM V (or IV). What was called "mathematics disorder" in DSM IV is now called "specific learning disorder with impairment in mathematics". It's all psychobabble and merely a label, but when being tested, the word "dyscalculia" may not come up.

I know you will take all this info and do what's best for your daughter. Good luck!
 
WOW THANK YOU!!! I have printed out your response and will go over this with DD. The issue you mention is the exact issue I wanted to have her tested for but the school had to do the full IQ eval not just a math test. When her working storage came up a little low they felt that did explain some careless in math etc. (hard to do mental math!). I will go over your note with her. I can't thank you enough for such a great detailed note. THANKS!!!!

Quite belatedly (I only check the boards very occasionally) -- you're very welcome! I hope it can help.

Please do reassure her that she's not the only one who struggles with things like this, and not only is she not alone, it is possible to develop workarounds. Despite getting turned away from my passion in school, repeatedly, I am now in the tech field, own my own company, and spend my spare time as an activist for several things, including better STEM education for K-12 girls. :)
 











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