Abortion thread

[Lisa loves Pooh]

(Lisa Loves Pooh - sorry for stealing your "super duper". i can't seem to stop with the old fashioned expressions today!)

LOL

 

[totalia]

A child under four and a half months development within the womb is NOT viable with our current level of technology. See if you can find anything on the internet about a child living without being attached to the mother under that time frame. If you can, then I will rethink my stance.

 

[auntpolly]

Yup, and this is the heart of the question. I cant see preserving life to EVER be immoral assuming a that a reasonable healthy child is the result and no one elses rights are squashed.

Yes but that's the problem. Although there are miracle cases, there are many more stories about babies with very serious problems. To what length do we ethically go to keep a baby alive?

 

[WDWHound]

If the childs life is viable then the mother can no longer say whether the child can live or die now can she? Human rights apply to the living child. And it is the doctors choice. It should not be the mothers responsibility to say yes or no if she does not want it. Thats why we take children from bad homes.

Your trying to twist my words and it won't work.

I really am not trying to twist your words, amnd I am sorry if I gave that impression. I think that that determining when life begins is an important part of the isssue and the discussion willl soon be forced on us my technology. Right now the laws are fine, but they may need to change as the situation changes.

My goal here was to present this scenerio.
option A - The mother is submitted to invasive surgery, but the baby wil then be viable without her and she can go on her way.
Option B - The morther is submitted to a less extere procedure (an abortion) and the fetus is dead.

Do the mother's rights trump the viableity of the Baby in this scenerio, given that she has to subject herself to surgery? I think I know you answer after other posts you have mnade since, but this is all I was trying to ask.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

A child under four and a half months development within the womb is NOT viable with our current level of technology. See if you can find anything on the internet about a child living without being attached to the mother under that time frame. If you can, then I will rethink my

I wrote the comment and then researched and opted to leave the comment in tact as is.

 

[WDWHound]

A child under four and a half months development within the womb is NOT viable with our current level of technology. See if you can find anything on the internet about a child living without being attached to the mother under that time frame. If you can, then I will rethink my stance.

It is not now, but it will be in 10 years at most. Again the laws are fine for now, but we need to be think about what is coming so that we are ready IF things need to be adjusted.

 

[totalia]

I really am not trying to twist your words, amnd I am sorry if I gave that impression. I think that that determining when life begins is an important part of the isssue and the discussion willl soon be forced on us my technology. Right now the laws are fine, but they may need to change as the situation changes.

My goal here was to present this scenerio.
option A - The mother is submitted to invasive surgery, but the baby wil then be viable without her and she can go on her way.
Option B - The morther is submitted to a less extere procedure (an abortion) and the fetus is dead.

Do the mother's rights trump the viableity of the Baby in this scenerio, given that she has to subject herself to surgery? I think I know you answer after other posts you have mnade since, but this is all I was trying to ask.

I agre. Determining when life begins is a very important part of this but the truth is, no one knows because no one can agree on when life begins.

If surgery will save the mothers life, then yes, she has the right to make that choice. If the child is born then the doctor has the right to say whether he believes the child would survive if he performed surgery on it that would allow it to survive. It has the right to life because ITS life is viable with our current technological level.

 

[totalia]

It is not now, but it will be in 10 years at most. Again the laws are fine for now, but we need to be think about what is coming so that we are ready IF things need to be adjusted.

10 years is only your opinion. Until we can develop an articial womb (far beyond our current abilities), it's highly doubtful.

 

[chobie]

It is not now, but it will be in 10 years at most. Again the laws are fine for now, but we need to be think about what is coming so that we are ready IF things need to be adjusted.

We don't need to think about medical possibilities that may or may not happen. We may talk about those potentials if we choose to as a society, but we may choose to think about what we have right here and now instead.

 

[totalia]

Ugggh. I want to continue this but I need to go sleep for a while. I will bbl.

 

[WDWHound]

OK guys, here is why I am being such a pain in the neck. I really do respect everyones views here, but statements are being made on both sides that I find hard to back up. Some on one side claim this is a religious issue. Well, I don't see anything in any religious texts to back that up. Some on the other side seem to be taking the stance that only the woman's rights matter. Well, I would argue that there are other factors here that we don't and cant understand yet. People have said the fetus is not a life, it will never know it existed, but we cant know that. We make the presumption that a womans rights (which are VERY important)., trump the right of something we dont understand clearly.

Both sides seem to be on shakey ground logically, yet neither side even seems to be willing to begin listening to each. I hear statements like "abortion is alwayts murder" or "the woman should always have the right to choose" and I don;t think either statement can be backed up because NO ONE knows all the facts yet.

The world is changing. We better learn to start talking calmly and open to change about this topic because soon technology is going to force the issue.

 

[WDWHound]

We don't need to think about medical possibilities that may or may not happen. We may talk about those potentials if we choose to as a society, but we may choose to think about what we have right here and now instead.

I disagree. I have alrready said the current laws are the best we do with our current understanding, but discussing potentials helps us to understand the issues better and can root out nboth flaws in logic, and issues not yet considered that apply today.

 

[auntpolly]

Isn't that a parental decision as guardian for a children. A woman who goes into pre-term labor that can't be stopped...it is the hospitals duty to catch and then care for that baby until it is healthy enough to go home. A responsible physician would weigh each case appropriately and advise the parents accordingly.

And so long as there are miracles out there, it cannot be proven that one child should not have the chance that others did.

I read a big article in the NYTimes magazine about this and sometimes it is not completely up to the parent. It takes super-human efforts and incredible amounts of money to save some babies -- and all the while the doctors know that the baby's chance of living very long or having a normal life is very small. Of course I can understand wanting to save the baby at all cost - but doctors and ethicists anre trying to figure out at what point the cost is too high. I guess for now it's decided case by case, drs and parents by dr and parents. Some times the parents are told that they have to let go, sometimes the doctors don't tell them that but they know they should.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

A child under four and a half months development within the womb is NOT viable with our current level of technology. See if you can find anything on the internet about a child living without being attached to the mother under that time frame. If you can, then I will rethink my stance.

The youngest I found was 20 weeks or so. So no first trimester attempts for fetal surgery that I can find.

I had a friend who did lose her baby--she was experiencing preterm labor at 17 or 18 weeks....before she could be hospitalized for it--she had to wait about 2-3 weeks b/c any delivery before then would be a late miscarriage (not a live birth).

 

[WDWHound]

10 years is only your opinion. Until we can develop an articial womb (far beyond our current abilities), it's highly doubtful.

Guess again.
In Japan, an artificial womb has been created that incubates goat fetuses. The scientists who developed it say they are working on a model that can be used for human fetuses.

Several weeks ago,a team of scientists from Cornell University's Weill Medical College announced that they had succeeded, for the first time, in creating an artificial womb lining. The scientific team,led by Dr Hung Chiung Liu of the Centre for Reproductive Medicine and Infertility, stimulated cells to grow into uterine lining, using a cocktail of drugs and hormones. The goal of the research is to help infertile couples by creating an entire womb which could be transplanted into a woman.

10 years might be a bit optomistic, but not much.

 

[chobie]

OK guys, here is why I am being such a pain in the neck. I really do respect everyones views here, but statements are being made on both sides that I find hard to back up. Some on one side claim this is a religious issue. Well, I don't see anything in any religious texts to back that up. Some on the other side seem to be taking the stance that only the woman's rights matter. Well, I would argue that there are other factors here that we don't and cant understand yet. People have said the fetus is not a life, it will never know it existed, but we cant know that. We make the presumption that a womans rights (which are VERY important)., trump the right of something we dont understand clearly.

Both sides seem to be on shakey ground logically, yet neither side even seems to be willing to begin listening to each. I hear statements like "abortion is alway ts murder" or "the woman should always have the right to choose" and I don;t think either statement can be backed up because NO ONE knows all the facts yet.

The world is changing. We better learn to start talking calmly about this because soon technology is going to force the issue.

There is no shaky ground as far as the law goes IMO. We do know one fact, it's individual woman who get pregnant. It is that fact alone which justifies my position on abortion. Talking about what may happen is not logical to me for this topic. Saying that abortion is not an emotional issue and then using terms like baby and child because they invoke an emotional response that embryo can't, is not logical to me either. JMHO.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Guess again.
In Japan, an artificial womb has been created that incubates goat fetuses. The scientists who developed it say they are working on a model that can be used for human fetuses.

Scary!!!

 

[auntpolly]

OK guys, here is why I am being such a pain in the neck. I really do respect everyones views here, but statements are being made on both sides that I find hard to back up. Some on one side claim this is a religious issue. Well, I don't see anything in any religious texts to back that up. Some on the other side seem to be taking the stance that only the woman's rights matter. Well, I would argue that there are other factors here that we don't and cant understand yet. People have said the fetus is not a life, it will never know it existed, but we cant know that. We make the presumption that a womans rights (which are VERY important)., trump the right of something we dont understand clearly.

Both sides seem to be on shakey ground logically, yet neither side even seems to be willing to begin listening to each. I hear statements like "abortion is alwayts murder" or "the woman should always have the right to choose" and I don;t think either statement can be backed up because NO ONE knows all the facts yet.

The world is changing. We better learn to start talking calmly and open to change about this topic because soon technology is going to force the issue.

If it's not a religious issue than there are a lot of churches that are trying to make it seem that way. And I think a lot of people believe they are anti-abortion because of their religion, so I don't think discussing religious text has anything to do with it.

We've been talking about this calmly for over a dozen pages, thank you very much! (and patting ourselves on the back for it all the way!)

 

[auntpolly]

Guess again.
In Japan, an artificial womb has been created that incubates goat fetuses. The scientists who developed it say they are working on a model that can be used for human fetuses.

Several weeks ago,a team of scientists from Cornell University's Weill Medical College announced that they had succeeded, for the first time, in creating an artificial womb lining. The scientific team,led by Dr Hung Chiung Liu of the Centre for Reproductive Medicine and Infertility, stimulated cells to grow into uterine lining, using a cocktail of drugs and hormones. The goal of the research is to help infertile couples by creating an entire womb which could be transplanted into a woman.

10 years might be a bit optomistic, but not much.

And there are those that would consider these extremes immoral, unethical, and against their religion.

I guess that doesn't have anything to do with anything -- but it just struck me so, that's all.

 

[krystyana]

I have to say I don't agree with you wdwhound....I am always open to listening to others views and think this has been a very civilized discussion....I think this is always going to be a touchy subject.... I am pro-choice with limitations in my mind... but i completely respect those who belive in unlimited free choice and those who are pro life. I respect the merit in all arguments....that being said... If someone mandated that you donate your lung or kidney to another so that a life be spared how would you feel? If you were forced into an operation so that another could live... I'm not sure how I would feel given that situation, but certainly not in control. I think that is why this argument is often more cut and dried for men...many don't understand all of the physical and emotional demands placed on a woman during this time....Pregnancy by nature is a dangerous undertaking...with all the things that can potentially go wrong it is truly amazing there are so many of us......