ABA investigates Bush for exceeding constitutional authority

mrsltg said:
Unfortunately this task is being undertaken by the ABA. No, they are not unbiased. They are lawyers - YUCK. The legal system, again, unfortunately, has been perverted making most associations with lawyers tainted. Whether they mean well or not this looks like a case where the group will work from the conclusion backwards to make all pieces fit. Just look at some of the lines bolded by the OP. Clearly a conclusion has been reached.

My God. It only took 20 posts for the lawyer-bashing to start. :rolleyes:

The ABA has every right to study issues of constitutional construction and make recomendations. Their recomendations, whatever they are, will not have the force of law. In my opinion, it is time someone did something, because our dully elected representatives in Congress seem incapable of doing anything, and they are the ones charged by the constituion to maintain a systems of checks and balances.
 
You're right on the money, Punkin.

as for lawyer bashing -- Shakespeare said "The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers". - (Henry VI Part 2, Act IV, Scene II) -- and then we shall descend into chaos without a rulle of law to hold or civilizatin together.
 
But if all lawyers are inherently bad, should we purge all people with JDs from the government? We'd be losing an awful lot of hard working public servants and respected legislators.

Just because some attorneys are corrupt does not mean they all are. Just because some police officers racially profile does not mean they all are. Just because some male OBGYNs have taken advantage of patients does not mean that all do. Just because some priests are pediphiles does not mean they all are. Watch your generalizations.
 
Mugg Mann said:
I see you bypassed both questions.....again.

Par for the course, Joe.

I take the time to answer sincerely and honestly, but you are never happy! Boo hoo :rolleyes:
 

crcormier said:
Aren't you showing bias in this statement?

No.

Nor am I conducting an investigation.

People on both sides of the aisle were stunned with some of Clinton's pardons.

And as for the ABA's bias ---

BY JAMES LINDGREN
Monday, August 6, 2001 12:01 a.m. EDT

With the American Bar Association meeting in Chicago today, it is an apt moment to look at the ABA's controversial judicial-evaluation process and consider whether it provides an objective, nonpartisan measure of a judicial nominee's qualifications.

That's what it says it does, a claim echoed by the Democrats on the Senate Judiciary Committee, who vow not to schedule a nominee's hearing until they have reviewed the ABA's rating. This faith persists despite the White House's decision not to call upon the ABA to pre-screen its judicial nominees, a system that had been used by presidents since the 1950s.

What does the evidence show? I've just completed a statistical study of the ABA's ratings of appointees to the U.S. Courts of Appeals during the Clinton and first Bush administrations and can report that the facts don't support the ABA's claim of objectivity. The ABA may once have been objective, but it's not anymore.

I analyzed the credentials of the 108 nominees who were ultimately appointed to the federal appeals courts during the Clinton and Bush-1 administrations. The results? The ABA applied measurably different and harsher standards during President George H. W. Bush's administration than it applied during President Bill Clinton's tenure. In short, the Bush appointees got lower ABA ratings than the Clinton appointees.

First a word on how the process works. The ABA's 15-member Standing Committee on the Federal Judiciary rates judges as "Well Qualified," "Qualified" or "Not Qualified."
Judicial temperament and integrity, two criteria that the ABA considers, are hard to measure. But many credentials can be measured empirically. My study considered six: judicial experience, an elite law school education, law review, a federal court clerkship, private-practice experience, and government-practice experience. The data on the professional qualifications of the 108 judges were collected by the Federalist Society from publicly available sources or directly from the judges.

While my study found strong evidence of different treatment of nominees, this isn't a simple story of ABA bias in favor of Clinton nominees. Among nominees with the most important credential--prior judicial experience--Clinton and Bush-1 nominees both fared roughly equally.

Instead, the problem arose for nominees without prior judicial experience. Because these candidates lacked the most obvious credential for the job, the ABA evaluations could be more subjective.

Here Clinton nominees fared strikingly better than Bush-1 nominees. Some 65% of Clinton appointees without judicial experience were unanimously rated "Well Qualified" compared with only 17% of the Bush-1 appointees. Controlling for credentials, my study found that Clinton nominees had more than 10 times better odds of getting the ABA's highest rating than similarly credentialed Bush appointees. In short, being nominated by Bill Clinton was a stronger positive variable than any other credential or than all other credentials put together.

A Clinton nominee with few of the six credentials I measured had a much better chance of getting the highest ABA rating than a Bush nominee with most of these credentials. For example: A nominee with an elite law school education, law review, a federal clerkship, and experience in both government and private practice would have only a 32% chance of getting the highest ABA rating if he were a Bush appointee, but a 77% chance if he were a Clinton appointee. A Clinton nominee with none or just one of these five credentials would still have at least a 45% chance of getting the highest rating.

The differences in how the ABA treated Bush-1 and Clinton nominees reached even to the internal decision making of the ABA committee. The ratings committee split its vote between two ratings 33% of the time when evaluating Bush-1 appointees, but it split only 17% of the time when evaluating Clinton appointees.
If Clinton nominees had been subjected to the same credentials-driven approach as Bush-1 candidates, only 46% of Clinton's confirmed nominees would have been unanimously rated as "Well Qualified." Instead, 62% actually received that top rating. On average Bush-1 and Clinton nominees had almost identically strong measured qualifications, yet they were not rated similarly.

The data suggest that when Bill Clinton took office, the ABA softened its standards, possibly emphasizing credentials such as temperament and philosophy that are harder to measure than experience and educational success. Now the ABA is back to rating Republican nominees--and apparently is also back to its old harsh ways. The ABA ratings of George W. Bush's first 11 appellate nominees were released this summer. While it is much too soon to reach any firm conclusions about Bush-2, the pattern so far is not encouraging.

Although 62% of Clinton's 66 confirmed appellate nominees got the ABA's highest rating of unanimously "Well Qualified," only five of the first 11 new Bush nominees--45%--have received the highest ABA rating, the same percentage that confirmed nominees received under the administration of the elder Bush.

At the end of the day, one nagging question remains: Why hasn't the ABA itself noticed the large political differences in its evaluative processes and worked harder to understand, explain or eliminate them? Now that there are hard data that support the claims of its critics, it would be good to see fewer denials and more introspection and reform.


Mr. Lindgren is a professor at Northwestern University School of Law.
 
:charac2:

YADBABP

(Yet Another DisBoard Anti-Bush Post)

The ABA can "investigate" all they want. And they have what authority under the Constitution? NONE - therefore, meaningless. It just helps them raise more funds that they can then use to buy off DemocRats.
 
JoeEpcotRocks said:
I take the time to answer sincerely and honestly, but you are never happy! Boo hoo :rolleyes:

The is the third time you've chosen not to answer the two questions posed, and instead decided to employ diversionary tactics.

As to your response, it would appear that you are in fact "sincerely and honestly" determined to not answer them. Why is that, Joe?
 
TheDoctor said:
This is really wild. Senator Arlen Spector is proposing legislation that would allow members of congress to sue President Bush over these signing statements. http://www.boston.com/news/nation/w...nator_considers_suit_over_bush_law_challenge/ I am surprised that a republican Senator would do this or that hearings would be held in the Senate on this issue (given that the Senate is controlled bythe Republicans.

Spector a Republican?? :rotfl2: In name only thats for sure!
 
The best defense is truth--so if Bush didn't do anything wrong...there isn't an issue.

But if he did--there is an issue and someone has to look into it. Who exactly would you nominate, Joe to check into that?

Just a question from a fellow Republican. :wave:
 
JudicialTyranny said:
The ABA can "investigate" all they want. And they have what authority under the Constitution? NONE - therefore, meaningless. It just helps them raise more funds that they can then use to buy off DemocRats.


DING-DING-DING-DING-DING-DING-DING-DING!!!!

BINGO! We have a winner!

Right on the money! (pun intended)
 
TheDoctor said:
This is really wild. Senator Arlen Spector is proposing legislation that would allow members of congress to sue President Bush over these signing statements. http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2006/06/28/senator_considers_suit_over_bush_law_challenge/ I am surprised that a republican Senator would do this or that hearings would be held in the Senate on this issue (given that the Senate is controlled bythe Republicans.


Spector is a R(H)INO, at best. One that should've been gotten rid of YEARS ago.

I'm a Republican. I'm for term limits. This guy is one of the reasons I'm for it, and one of the reasons it'll never pass. "Lifers" like him and Kennedy will never let it happen.
 
The ABA has issued a report on this issue and is urging congress to consider suing bush over these signing statements. http://www.rawstory.com/showarticle...com/usnews/news/articles/060721/21signing.htm
George W. Bush did not invent the document known as the presidential signing statement; he inherited it. Franklin Roosevelt, Bill Clinton, and even James Monroe, in 1830, authored the statements, which spell out the president's sometimes controversial interpretation of the very law he's signing. But no president has used signing statements quite like Bush.

Although the president has not issued more statements in total than any other president, he has challenged more than 750 laws in more than 100 signing statements. And he has used them to, in effect, challenge parts of laws, and challenge them more aggressively, than any president before him. Bush's liberal use of those statements first attracted attention in December 2005, when he signed a torture ban—but then added a statement reserving the right not to enforce the ban, alongside his signature. Since then, Congress has held a hearing to investigate Bush's use of the statements, a bipartisan advocacy group has condemned their use, and Democratic Rep. Barney Frank has introduced a bill that would allow Congress to override content in them that contradicts signed legislation.

Now, U.S. News has learned, an American Bar Association task force is set to suggest even stronger action. In a report to be released Monday, the task force will recommend that Congress consider suing the president. To mount a legal case, a person or group must have been granted "standing," or the right to file a lawsuit. Current law does not grant members of Congress such a right, and recent Supreme Court decisions have denied it in all but very exceptional cases. But Congress could—and should—consider bypassing that hurdle by writing a law to give its members the right to sue, a resolution in the task force's report declares, according to a copy of the report obtained by U.S. News. The resolution cannot become official aba policy without approval from the group's legislative body, scheduled to meet in Hawaii next month.

There, the aba will review four other resolutions, three directed to the president and one to Congress. The first three ask the president not to use signing statements as a kind of shortcut veto. If the president thinks a bill or part of a bill is unconstitutional, one of these resolution declares, he should feel free to say so—but he should do that before he signs it, not after. The other resolution suggests Congress craft legislation to make signing statements more transparent and more accessible. Currently, signing statements are not sent directly to Congress, and they are often ambiguous in their intent. But a law could require the president to write a report explaining exactly how and why he plans not to enforce a law, if he plans not to enforce it, for every signing statement he issues.
 
Thanks Doc for the update! The story you posted above flew under my radar (although it's just incredible but not surprising just how underpublicized this whole saga has been), so I'm grateful for the chance to catch up.

It's interesting that the rawstory's source is US News and World Report, and further down beyond what you pasted is the following quote:

"It's hard to imagine the abandonment of conservative principles in his lawlessness," said Bruce Fein, a member of the task force who voted for Bush twice and served as associate deputy attorney general under President Ronald Reagan.

It will be interesting to see how this ultimately unfolds. The idea that both the head of the FBI and an associate deputy attorney general for Ronald Reagan want this investigated is telling indeed.

It's a shame that JoeEpcotRocks is continuing his ongoing policy of running away from threads after making non-defensible statements. It would be rather amusing to see how he spins his claims of bias against the two people named in the paragraph above.
 
The report is now due out until Monday. Rawstory had advanced notice of the story and ran with it.

The concept that the ABA is recommending that Congress sue Bush tells how serious this issue is. Bush has pushed it on the concept that he is above the law. Luckily the Supreme Court gutted the concept that bush has unfettered power as a war president to ignore the Geneva Convention. Congress needs to step up and exercise some oversight over bush. That is not going to happen while the GOP controls congress.
 
Here is a good article on the ABA task force report. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/23/AR2006072300511.html
A panel of legal scholars and lawyers assembled by the American Bar Association is sharply criticizing the use of "signing statements" by President Bush that assert his right to ignore or not enforce laws passed by Congress.

In a report to be issued today, the ABA task force said that Bush has lodged more challenges to provisions of laws than all previous presidents combined.

The panel members described the development as a serious threat to the Constitution's system of checks and balances, and they urged Congress to pass legislation permitting court review of such statements.

"The president is indicating that he will not either enforce part or the entirety of congressional bills," said ABA president Michael S. Greco, a Massachusetts attorney. "We will be close to a constitutional crisis if this issue, the president's use of signing statements, is left unchecked."

The report seemed likely to fuel the controversy over signing statements, which Bush has used to challenge laws including a congressional ban on torture, a request for data on the USA Patriot Act, whistle-blower protections and the banning of U.S. troops in fighting rebels in Colombia.....

If the president has constitutional problems with a bill, the task force said, he should convey those concerns to Congress before it reaches his desk. The panel said signing statements should not be a substitute for vetoing bills the president considers unconstitutional.

"The President's constitutional duty is to enforce laws he has signed into being unless and until they are held unconstitutional by the Supreme Court or a subordinate tribunal," panel members wrote. "The Constitution is not what the President says it is."
 
TheDoctor said:
the banning of U.S. troops in fighting rebels in Colombia.....

why, I can't imagine why the Commander-in-chief would object to Congress sending troops to Columbia to fight rebels, and then banning them from fighting rebels. I'm sure glad the ABA refuses to tolerate that kind of disrespect. :p
 
Here's the Boston Globe's story on the latest developments. The writer, Charlie Savage, is (to my knowledge) the first to break the story about the signing statements nationwide.

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/w...06/07/24/panel_chides_bush_on_bypassing_laws/

Panel chides Bush on bypassing laws
ABA group cites limits to power
By Charlie Savage, Globe Staff | July 24, 2006

WASHINGTON -- President Bush should stop issuing statements claiming the power to bypass parts of laws he has signed, an American Bar Association task force has unanimously concluded in a strongly worded 32-page report that is scheduled to be released today.

The bipartisan panel of legal specialists includes a former FBI director, a former federal appeals court chief judge, former Republican officials, and leading scholars.
The panel said presidents do not have the authority to declare that sections of the bills they sign are unconstitutional, and that they thus need not be enforced as Congress wrote them.

Bush has used these so-called signing statements to challenge more than 750 laws that have been enacted since he took office, more than all previous presidents combined.

``The president's constitutional duty is to enforce laws he has signed into being, unless and until they are held unconstitutional by the Supreme Court," the report said. ``The Constitution is not what the president says it is."
The task force will present its findings next month in Hawaii at a meeting of the bar group's 550-member House of Delegates. The delegates will vote on whether to adopt the recommendations.

The task force chairman and a former federal prosecutor, Neal Sonnett , said he hoped the House of Delegates would back the panel's call to roll back the use of presidential signing statements.

``The recommendations that we make are an effort to correct practices that, if they continue, threaten to throw this country into a constitutional crisis," Sonnett said. ``Most of the members of the House of Delegates are very concerned about upholding the rule of law. That is, after all, the mission of the ABA. So I'm hopeful that we will get a resounding show of support."

The ABA's board of governors created the task force in June, at the request of the bar group's president, Michael Greco, a Boston lawyer. The move followed the publication of a series of articles in The Boston Globe about Bush's expanded use of signing statements.

Citing an expansive theory of executive power that is not supported by most legal scholars, the administration has declared that the Constitution puts Bush beyond the reach of Congress in military matters and executive branch operations.

The laws Bush has challenged include a ban on torturing detainees, oversight provisions in the USA Patriot Act, restrictions against using US troops in combat against rebels in Colombia, and numerous requirements to provide information to Congress, among many others. At the same time, Bush has vetoed just one bill since he took office.

In its report, the task force acknowledged that its work had been prompted by ``the number and nature of the current president's signing statements," but it emphasized that its criticism was ``not intended to be, and should not be viewed as, an attack on President George W. Bush."

The panel noted that especially since the 1980s, previous presidents of both parties had also used signing statements to challenge laws, albeit less frequently.

President Clinton, for example, used signing statements to challenge 140 laws over his eight years in office. The task force characterized all such statements as inappropriate.
``Our recommendations . . . are directed not just at the sitting president, but at all chief executives who will follow him, and they are intended to underscore the importance of the doctrine of separation of powers," the panel wrote.

Last month at a Senate Judiciary Committee hearing, an administration lawyer, Michelle Boardman, defended the use of presidential signing statements. Boardman argued that the president was showing respect to Congress by using signing statements, because a veto would take out the entire bill.

But the task force said a president does not have that option. The Constitution requires the president either to veto a bill in its entirety -- giving Congress a chance to override his decision -- or to sign the bill and enforce all its components as Congress wrote them, they said.


``A line-item veto is not a constitutionally permissible alternative, even when the president believes that some provisions of a bill are unconstitutional. . . . A president could easily contrive a constitutional excuse to decline enforcement of any law he deplored, and transform his qualified veto into a monarch-like absolute veto," the panel wrote.

At the hearing last month, Boardman also argued that presidents must use signing statements, because it is often impractical to veto an entire bill over small constitutional problems if the bill contains other measures that the executive branch deems are urgently needed.

The ABA task force, however, said that the Constitution's limits on presidential power trump such pragmatic considerations.

``The Founding Fathers contemplated bills with both attractive and unattractive features packaged in one bill with heterogeneous provisions," the panel wrote. ``The president nonetheless was expected to veto `urgent' bills that he believed were unconstitutional in part.

``If the urgency were genuine, Congress could either delete the offending provisions or override the president," the panel wrote in its report.

If Congress and the White House cannot reach an agreement on the signing statements, the task force added, both sides should take steps to put the issue before a court for review.

The report urged Congress to pass legislation giving it standing to sue a president over such signing statements.

The idea of legislation allowing Congress to sue the White House over signing statements has also been floated by the Senate Judiciary Committee chairman, Arlen Specter, Republican of Pennsylvania, who has accused Bush of ``a very blatant encroachment" on the constitutional prerogative of Congress to write laws.
The ABA task force's members included several conservative Republican figures, including Mickey Edwards, a former member of Congress from Oklahoma; Bruce Fein, a Justice Department official under President Reagan; and William S. Sessions, a retired federal judge who was the director of the FBI under both Reagan and President George H.W. Bush.
Other members included Patricia Wald, the retired chief judge of the US Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia; Harold Koh, dean of the Yale Law School; Kathleen Sullivan, former dean of the Stanford Law School; Charles Ogletree, a Harvard law professor; Stephen Saltzburg, a George Washington University Law School professor; Mark Agrast, a former legislative counsel for Representative William D. Delahunt , Democrat of Quincy; and Thomas Susman, who worked in the Justice Department under both Presidents Johnson and Nixon, and who was later counsel to the Senate Judiciary Committee.

In an interview, Edwards said the findings should be understood as rising above the politics of the moment. ``It's not about Bush; it's about what should be the responsibility of a president," Edwards said. ``We are saying that the president of the United States has an obligation to follow the Constitution and exercise only the authority the Constitution gives him. That's a central tenet of American conservatism -- to constrain the centralization of power."
 
Here is some more about Arlen Spector proposing a bill that will allow congress to sue bush over these signing statements. http://apnews.myway.com/article/20060724/D8J2LC50B.html
WASHINGTON (AP) - A powerful Republican committee chairman who has led the fight against President Bush's signing statements said Monday he would have a bill ready by the end of the week allowing Congress to sue him in federal court.

We will submit legislation to the United States Senate which will...authorize the Congress to undertake judicial review of those signing statements with the view to having the president's acts declared unconstitutional," Judiciary Committee Chairman Arlen Specter, R-Pa., said on the Senate floor.

Specter's announcement came the same day that an American Bar Association task force concluded that by attaching conditions to legislation, the president has sidestepped his constitutional duty to either sign a bill, veto it, or take no action.

Bush has issued at least 750 signing statements during his presidency, reserving the right to revise, interpret or disregard laws on national security and constitutional grounds.

"That non-veto hamstrings Congress because Congress cannot respond to a signing statement," said ABA president Michael Greco. The practice, he added "is harming the separation of powers."

Bush has challenged about 750 statutes passed by Congress, according to numbers compiled by Specter's committee. The ABA estimated Bush has issued signing statements on more than 800 statutes, more than all other presidents combined.

Signing statements have been used by presidents, typically for such purposes as instructing agencies how to execute new laws.

But many of Bush's signing statements serve notice that he believes parts of bills he is signing are unconstitutional or might violate national security.

Still, the White House said signing statements are not intended to allow the administration to ignore the law.
I am glad that Arlen Spector is going to push such a law. This is an important issue and the fact that a republican is willing to take on Bush is a good indication how far out of line bush is.
 


Disney Vacation Planning. Free. Done for You.
Our Authorized Disney Vacation Planners are here to provide personalized, expert advice, answer every question, and uncover the best discounts. Let Dreams Unlimited Travel take care of all the details, so you can sit back, relax, and enjoy a stress-free vacation.
Start Your Disney Vacation
Disney EarMarked Producer






DIS Facebook DIS youtube DIS Instagram DIS Pinterest DIS Tiktok DIS Twitter

Add as a preferred source on Google

Back
Top Bottom