A threat from Bin Laden (possible debate)

[CathrynRose]

I find it hilarious that the apologists for Bush have completely ignored the posting of the Fourth Amendment that was made earlier. Here, let's look at it again:



Quote:
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.




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I check out that first line and I think "Gee - terrorists whom attack on our soil, wouldnt make any of us be secure, one bit!!"

 

[wvrevy]

Theyre looking for child-porn offenders. You concerned about their rights, too?

Yes. The question is, why aren't you ? Oh...wait...I'm sure you believe everyone that the government accuses is always guilty, right ? No chance they could make a mistake ? No chance that anyone - at any level - would use an investigation to embarrass an enemy ?

If they can be proven guilty WITHIN THE LIMITS OF THE CONSTITUTION, then they should be punished to the fullest extent of the law (and I do mean fullest...I've no pity in me for anyone that would do anything to harm a child). But I'm not willing to sacrifice all of our rights in order to feel "safe" from the bad guys.

 

[wvrevy]

I check out that first line and I think "Gee - terrorists whom attack on our soil, wouldnt make any of us be secure, one bit!!"

So, you're in favor of just throwing the constitution out the window, out of pure abject fear ?

Wow...I don't even know what to say to that.

 

[CapeCodTenor]

If you think about it, those who are letting fear guide their support of this looser presidental administration (which is increasingly eroding the Constitution and civil liberties) are actually supporting the terrorists (whose sole purpose is to create "fear" which will alter the American way of life)

Do you think it's the fear that's supporting the terrorists? I don't...well, maybe a little. I think it's when you hear this

The Iraqis who have risen up against the occupation are not 'insurgents' or 'terrorists' or 'The Enemy.' They are the revolution, the Minutemen, and their numbers will grow - and they will win.
Michael Moore

(I highlighted that last part) that gives the terrorists more fuel. I'm not saying we shouldn't voice our opinioins...just how we say it. I don't remember the details, or where I heard it, but a few years ago there was either a book or report from a North Vietnemese General that stated that they [the North Vietnemese] would have lost the war had it not been for the riots and political upheaval (for the lack of a better term) shown on tv. Once they saw what was going on in the streets of America (on the tv) they knew they had won the war...it was just a matter of time.

 

[Mom2be]

Yes. The question is, why aren't you ? Oh...wait...I'm sure you believe everyone that the government accuses is always guilty, right ? No chance they could make a mistake ? No chance that anyone - at any level - would use an investigation to embarrass an enemy ?

If they can be proven guilty WITHIN THE LIMITS OF THE CONSTITUTION, then they should be punished to the fullest extent of the law (and I do mean fullest...I've no pity in me for anyone that would do anything to harm a child). But I'm not willing to sacrifice all of our rights in order to feel "safe" from the bad guys.

Exactly. What CathrynRose refuses to see is that this might affect people who are INNOCENT! But of course as long as it isn't happening to her she is more then fine sticking her head in the sand. I doubt she would be so compasionate if it was happening to her.

~Amanda

 

[peachgirl]

Theyre looking for child-porn offenders. You concerned about their rights, too?

Are you trying to make it sound as if the subpeona they're after is confined to only those who engage in child porn?

If so, that's a bunch of garbage. They're after millions of random searches, confined or limited in range by nothing.

The government wants a list all requests entered into Google’s search engine during an unspecified single week — a breakdown that could conceivably span tens of millions of queries. In addition, it seeks 1 million randomly selected Web addresses from various Google databases.

The ends don't justify the means. Good for Google for not just handing over that information.

Btw, yes, I'm concerned for "their" rights because the next rights they may choose to go after will be mine. You just don't get it.

 

[CathrynRose]

If you think about it, those who are letting fear guide their support of this looser presidental administration (which is increasingly eroding the Constitution and civil liberties) are actually supporting the terrorists (whose sole purpose is to create "fear" which will alter the American way of life)

Congratulations Bu$h supporters, you've helped the terrorists accomplish their goal.

See - thats where youre wrong. I dont have any fear, as I have confidence in and respect for my goverment and military.

I have *concern* that nay-sayers, such as yourself, are attempting to undermine our gov't and military with *fluff* rec'vd from the sources you quote - which in turn will impede the mission at hand.

 

[Mom2be]

See - thats where youre wrong. I dont have any fear, as I have confidence in and respect for my goverment and military.

I have *concern* that nay-sayers, such as yourself, are attempting to undermine our gov't and military with *fluff* rec'vd from the sources you quote - which in turn will impede the mission at hand.

then I suspect if you have such confidence and respect for the government that you would have no problem with a national health care plan? Or in leaving Social Security alone?

~Amanda

 

[chobie]

Are you trying to make it sound as if the subpeona they're after is confined to only those who engage in child porn?

If so, that's a bunch of garbage. They're after millions of random searches, confined or limited in range by nothing.



The ends don't justify the means. Good for Google for not just handing over that information.

Btw, yes, I'm concerned for "their" rights because the next rights they may choose to go after will be mine. You just don't get it.

Didn't you get the memo on liberals? Being one means you love child molesters and terrorists, but hate America.

 

[CathrynRose]

Exactly. What CathrynRose refuses to see is that this might affect people who are INNOCENT! But of course as long as it isn't happening to her she is more then fine sticking her head in the sand. I doubt she would be so compasionate if it was happening to her.

~Amanda

Again - I have absolutely nothing to hide, what-so-ever. Lets say they listening to my boring conversations with my g/f about my day at work *yawn*. You think these wiretaps would continue on my line?!?!? I invite you, listen to my convo's - Im not planning an attack.

What you fail to mention is: What if it effects people whom are GUILTY?!?!? What if we bust them before something horrid happens? Nip it right inthe bud. Hello??

 

[wvrevy]

then I suspect if you have such confidence and respect for the government that you would have no problem with a national health care plan? Or in leaving Social Security alone?

~Amanda

Nice, Amanda ! Can't wait to see the response to this...

 

[CheshireVal]

then I suspect if you have such confidence and respect for the government that you would have no problem with a national health care plan? Or in leaving Social Security alone?

~Amanda

Empirically speaking, having blind confidence in one's government is not always such a good thing.

 

[CathrynRose]

Are you trying to make it sound as if the subpeona they're after is confined to only those who engage in child porn?

If so, that's a bunch of garbage. They're after millions of random searches, confined or limited in range by nothing.


.

You have facts to back this up? You have reason to believe they have other intentions? Lets see 'em. Let's hear it. Press release *I* heard, it was targeting child-porn offenders. Do you have information otherwise?

Sounds like someone is paranoid.

 

[wvrevy]

Again - I have absolutely nothing to hide, what-so-ever. Lets say they listening to my boring conversations with my g/f about my day at work *yawn*. You think these wiretaps would continue on my line?!?!? I invite you, listen to my convo's - Im not planning an attack.

What you fail to mention is: What if it effects people whom are GUILTY?!?!? What if we bust them before something horrid happens? Nip it right inthe bud. Hello??

Really ? Not a single "dirty little secret" ? Not a single skeleton in the closet ? Nothing that you would be embarrassed to have publicized ? Not talking about laws broken...just things that would potentially negatively affect your personal life.

Well...good for you, if that's the case. But, fortunately for everyone else in this country, the founding fathers put in protections so that the government doesn't get to indescriminately spy on it's citizens. First, it MUST prove that it has probable cause to suspect a crime.

 

[CheshireVal]

Really ? Not a single "dirty little secret" ? Not a single skeleton in the closet ? Nothing that you would be embarrassed to have publicized ? Not talking about laws broken...just things that would potentially negatively affect your personal life.

Well...good for you, if that's the case. But, fortunately for everyone else in this country, the founding fathers put in protections so that the government doesn't get to indescriminately spy on it's citizens. First, it MUST prove that it has probable cause to suspect a crime.

The fact that we're even debating whether the American government should have the right to spy on its own citizens without reason is pretty shocking, if you stop to think about it.

 

[chobie]

then I suspect if you have such confidence and respect for the government that you would have no problem with a national health care plan? Or in leaving Social Security alone?

~Amanda

Still waiting to see this one answered.

 

[wvrevy]

The fact that we're even debating whether the American government should have the right to spy on its own citizens without reason is pretty shocking, if you stop to think about it.

When I saw the polls a year or so ago that said a majority of Americans thought that the government should have some control over the press and that speech should be "limited" to some extent, I think my "shock" sensor for this kind of thing burned out completely. Now, this kind of cowardice that is on display - people willingly giving up their rights out of fear that the boogeyman is going to get them - doesn't even surprise me. Saddens me, yes. But it's not surprising anymore, much less "shocking".

 

[CathrynRose]

Really ? Not a single "dirty little secret" ? Not a single skeleton in the closet ? Nothing that you would be embarrassed to have publicized ? Not talking about laws broken...just things that would potentially negatively affect your personal life.
.

Thats the whole point - theyre not looking for "dirty little secrets"

Who is leaving in fear, now???

 

[Mom2be]

Empirically speaking, having blind confidence in one's government is not always such a good thing.

Couldn't agree more - you should let CathrynRose know that.

~Amanda

 

[Maleficent13]

When I saw the polls a year or so ago that said a majority of Americans thought that the government should have some control over the press and that speech should be "limited" to some extent, I think my "shock" sensor for this kind of thing burned out completely. Now, this kind of cowardice that is on display - people willingly giving up their rights out of fear that the boogeyman is going to get them - doesn't even surprise me. Saddens me, yes. But it's not surprising anymore, much less "shocking".

It's been a long time since I posted on a political thread, but I had to second this.