A question for Christians

[Buckalew11]

But can you see why people have so much trouble believing in a God that would banish you for carrying the Ark wrong??

We're like that as humans-we don't forgive easily. We want people to toe the line and we can be rigid. Those demanding, punishing images of God seem more like projections of our own human attitudes then the attitude of a God who is so much more loving than we could ever hope to be.

I believe God is bigger than us.

No, I can't.

Honestly, to me, He's God. Now if it was Bush or Obama or some other human person, sure, I'd have a problem with them striking a person dead because they carried the Ark wrong. I just do not have a problem with a God who loves me more than anyone else has ever even thought about loving me or with a God expecting me to obey Him just because He said so. He is still as loving imo.

I think the opposite is also true (from your quote above)--I think that we, in today's time, want God to be all about love and just not have any rules or absolutes. It is JMO that God is both--loving and just.

I think to say "I have a problem with a God who expects obedience, devotion, respect, etc. and if God is like that then keep your God" is more about making God less bigger than we are and trying to humanize Him. I would not bow down to human ever like I will bow down to God Almighty.

I agree, I think God is bigger than us. I think He is love and I think He is also a jealous God just like He said He was. What's He got to be jealous of? Of us giving our devotion to something or someone else--hence the first and greatest commandment.

 

[mumom95]

I would just say "I did my best"

 

[Fitswimmer]

No, I can't.

Honestly, to me, He's God. Now if it was Bush or Obama or some other human person, sure, I'd have a problem with them striking a person dead because they carried the Ark wrong. I just do not have a problem with a God who loves me more than anyone else has ever even thought about loving me or with a God expecting me to obey Him just because He said so. He is still as loving imo.

I think the opposite is also true (from your quote above)--I think that we, in today's time, want God to be all about love and just not have any rules or absolutes. It is JMO that God is both--loving and just.

I think to say "I have a problem with a God who expects obedience, devotion, respect, etc. and if God is like that then keep your God" is more about making God less bigger than we are and trying to humanize Him. I would not bow down to human ever like I will bow down to God Almighty.

I agree, I think God is bigger than us. I think He is love and I think He is also a jealous God just like He said He was. What's He got to be jealous of? Of us giving our devotion to something or someone else--hence the first and greatest commandment.

Well, all I can say is that we do not worship the same God. If the real God is the one that's going to smite someone for carrying something wrong, then I don't know if I want any part of it either.

I image God as being a lot like my own Dad. He loves me unconditionally. Sure, he has been upset when I've made bad choices and gotten angry with me when I've deserved it in my life, but I was never afraid of losing his love or being "banished". He might not love what I'm doing, but he never stops loving ME.

If a human male can be that way, why would God not be so much more?

 

[jimmiej]

I think God has the power to do whatever He wants also. It just seems against His nature to not have a consistent way for people to enter His heaven. God had a specific way the Ark of the Covenant was to be handled and carried. If you screwed that up, it was over. Throughout the Bible God gives specific instructions and wants obedience from us. It just seems to me that He remains the same today as always.

Good point Brenda. I would contend that God cannot (or maybe will not) accept anything or anyone who is not holy & righteous. Jesus is the only way we can attain that state before God.

1 Corinthians 6:11
11But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
Romans 5
18Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

20The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[Buckalew11]

Well, all I can say is that we do not worship the same God. If the real God is the one that's going to smite someone for carrying something wrong, then I don't know if I want any part of it either.

I image God as being a lot like my own Dad. He loves me unconditionally. Sure, he has been upset when I've made bad choices and gotten angry with me when I've deserved it in my life, but I was never afraid of losing his love or being "banished". He might not love what I'm doing, but he never stops loving ME.

If a human male can be that way, why would God not be so much more?

We do not worship the same God?

So when you read about the man dying because of carrying the Ark wrong, what do you think? Do you just say that is not true? That was God but the God of the OT not the loving God of the NT? That was a story? I am not sure where you are coming from.

I think God does love us unconditionally. I think He loves you more than your father even could. I think God loves me more than my dad ever loved me. But still think that by nature, God expects certain things and if He was to make something known to us as plainly as He did to those men in the OT about the Ark, you can bet your bottom dollar I think He means it.

Actually, my dad was a lot like that also--very loving but he meant business too. One can do both.

 

[Aidensmom]

But can you see why people have so much trouble believing in a God that would banish you for carrying the Ark wrong??

I understand that. And I understand that some people make their decisions regarding religion because of that. But I also understand many people don't have trouble with it. I don't think anyone needs to make any excuses for believing in a God that may do that. I don't think it's really up to anyone to "defend" God. You believe in him or you don't. You have certain interpretations of something or you have others.

I know I am not who you asked the question too, but I'm in pain tonight and in an irratable mood, and this is one of my pet peeves...that for whatever reason on this board, people are always trying to put people on the defensive about their particular beliefs of their faith. If I've ever done that to anyone unintentionally, I'm sorry, but I know that truly I am not going to just go out and preach to people that they are wrong. If I am asked what my beliefs are, I will say so though, and expect the same tolerance everyone else expects. If people don't want to agree with me, they have that freedom.

Some people don't like to hear what other people think, it bothers them. Some people like to. Some people change their minds based on others thoughts. Some people don't. Some people are offended that people have different beliefs, some people aren't.

We all have to make our own decisions. I think God is WAY bigger than all of us, and ALL of us are just stating what we believe to be true. I'm not sure there are any two people that actually agree 100% on everything. I think God purposely left a lot of things vague, mainly because the details aren't really that important in the whole scheme of things, and also because I believe Christianity is a very PERSONAL religion, everyone's relationship with God is different, and everyone is going to have different experiences. I think a lot of times people get too stuck on and argue way too much over the details.

As far as Christianity goes, do you love God? Yes? Ok, great, we're on the same page. The rest is just details.

If someone is not a Christian, fine, I don't have a problem with them. But if they are interested in hearing about why I believe what I do, I am more than willing to share.

 

[Fitswimmer]

We do not worship the same God?

So when you read about the man dying because of carrying the Ark wrong, what do you think? Do you just say that is not true? That was God but the God of the OT not the loving God of the NT? That was a story? I am not sure where you are coming from.

I think God does love us unconditionally. I think He loves you more than your father even could. I think God loves me more than my dad ever loved me. But still think that by nature, God expects certain things and if He was to make something known to us as plainly as He did to those men in the OT about the Ark, you can bet your bottom dollar I think He means it.

Actually, my dad was a lot like that also--very loving but he meant business too. One can do both.

I believe that the Bible contains truths and uses various types of literature to proclaim those truths. I believe that a great many of the stories in the Bible are not literally true, some are ways that the ancients explained things that they did not yet have the scientific abilities to understand, some are fables and allegories that are used to tell us about living with each other, and some are stories passed down from generation to generation about the history of the Jewish people. I can't honestly tell you whether God actually struck a man dead because he carried the Ark wrong, or whether the man had a heart attack or stroke and died and the people around him thought God struck him dead for carrying the Ark wrong. I will say that I tend to believe the latter.

I wasn't taught to believe in a punishing, angry, jealous or vengeful God. I was taught to believe in a God that was more like the father in the Prodigal Son story that Jesus told-who will allow us to make our own mistakes and choices and rejoice with all of heaven when we come home to Him.

 

[Buckalew11]

I believe that the Bible contains truths and uses various types of literature to proclaim those truths. I believe that a great many of the stories in the Bible are not literally true, some are ways that the ancients explained things that they did not yet have the scientific abilities to understand, some are fables and allegories that are used to tell us about living with each other, and some are stories passed down from generation to generation about the history of the Jewish people. I can't honestly tell you whether God actually struck a man dead because he carried the Ark wrong, or whether the man had a heart attack or stroke and died and the people around him thought God struck him dead for carrying the Ark wrong. I will say that I tend to believe the latter.

I wasn't taught to believe in a punishing, angry, jealous or vengeful God. I was taught to believe in a God that was more like the father in the Prodigal Son story that Jesus told-who will allow us to make our own mistakes and choices and rejoice with all of heaven when we come home to Him.

I see.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on all this. As always it is interesting to read and hear people's thoughts.

I do not want you to think that I believe in a "punishing, angry, jealous, or vengeful" God who doesn't love us beyond what love could ever be in our minds or hearts. Quite the opposite. I believe He does love more than we could ever fathom. However, I do believe the Bible tells us plainly that God is a jealous God. That vengence is His, and that He has been known to punish people for disobedience.

I do not think God has to be one way or the other...I think He can be both and do so quite perfectly.

 

[jimmiej]

I wasn't taught to believe in a punishing, angry, jealous or vengeful God. I was taught to believe in a God that was more like the father in the Prodigal Son story that Jesus told-who will allow us to make our own mistakes and choices and rejoice with all of heaven when we come home to Him.

But isn't it true that the prodigal son's father would have allowed him to die in his "sin" if the son had not chosen to return?

 

[Fitswimmer]

I see.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on all this. As always it is interesting to read and hear people's thoughts.

I do not want you to think that I believe in a "punishing, angry, jealous, or vengeful" God who doesn't love us beyond what love could ever be in our minds or hearts. Quite the opposite. I believe He does love more than we could ever fathom. However, I do believe the Bible tells us plainly that God is a jealous God. That vengence is His, and that He has been known to punish people for disobedience.

I do not think god has to be one way or the other...I think he can be both and do so quite perfectly.

There are people that I certainly hope God will punish, but they're mostly people who have been cruel to other people or animals. I hope that God doesn't punish someone for living an good life, but choosing the wrong religion. Of course, that's just my hope, I'm sure God has plans for such things. One of those "above my pay grade" decisions.

I think God knows us better than we know ourselves, and the way we find Him and the path we take to get there is ours alone, designed for us by Him. It is interesting to read about other people's journey's and what they have come to believe.

 

[Fitswimmer]

But isn't it true that the prodigal son's father would have allowed him to die in his "sin" if the son had not chosen to return?

We don't know, do we? That's not the story Jesus chose to tell.

 

[LuvN~Travel]

I think you meant Greek, not Roman? I've been re-reading the Bible myself (though I'm no longer Christian) and trying to understand the Old Testament/Tanakh from the Jewish perspective--so I got a Hebrew-English Tanakh and for good measure, a Greek-English New Testament and a regular Christian Bible (New International Version). Now I can't read Hebrew, of course, but I have it. I think a lot of Christians look at the Old Testament through a totally different perspective, and some of it mistranslated.

Probably, My mind isn't the clearest right now since I've had the flu for the past week. You'd think I wouldn't even go into these threads on days like that. lol
Thanks for reminding me and setting the record straight.

And sounds like you have some great reading helps!
Kim

 

[jimmiej]

We don't know, do we? That's not the story Jesus chose to tell.

Sure we do. See the bolded.

14After he had spent everything, there was a severe famine in that whole country, and he began to be in need. 15So he went and hired himself out to a citizen of that country, who sent him to his fields to feed pigs. 16He longed to fill his stomach with the pods that the pigs were eating, but no one gave him anything.

Luke 15
17"When he came to his senses, he said, 'How many of my father's hired men have food to spare, and here I am starving to death! 18I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. 19I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired men.' 20So he got up and went to his father.
"But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him.

 

[Buckalew11]

Here's my last thought, I'm heading off to bed (and seeing what TN and Memphis are doing)...

God could have chosen to just allow everyone into Heaven because He loves everyone whether they believe in Him or not. God could have chosen another way besides allowing Jesus Christ to die on the cross because that just seems too barbaric and cruel. God could have said just be nice most of the time and I'll let you into Heaven because I am Love.

But He didn't do that--not according to scripture. He did things quite differently than what probably most everyone would have done. Yet, He is God.

 

[jimmiej]

Here's my last thought, I'm heading off to bed (and seeing what TN and Memphis are doing)...

God could have chosen to just allow everyone into Heaven because He loves everyone whether they believe in Him or not. God could have chosen another way besides allowing Jesus Christ to die on the cross because that just seems too barbaric and cruel. God could have said just be nice most of the time and I'll let you into Heaven because I am Love.

But He didn't do that--not according to scripture. He did things quite differently than what probably most everyone would have done. Yet, He is God.

Isaiah 55

8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,"
declares the LORD.

OT- I pulling for the Vols. It should help the RPI of my Longhorns.

 

[Buckalew11]

And Yay! to the UT Vols Men's B-ball team!! They are #1 now. Bruce Pearl has done amazing things with this team.

And about those Longhorns...well, that burnt orange color is really good! I hope you have as much fun and suspense watching them as we do the Mens and Lady Vols.

 

[daisax]

But can you see why people have so much trouble believing in a God that would banish you for carrying the Ark wrong??

Especially given all the time Jesus spent telling people to knock it off with nitpicking rules to judge their neighbors with and instead choosing to be kind and loving.

 

[jimmiej]

Especially given all the time Jesus spent telling people to knock it off with nitpicking rules to judge their neighbors with and instead choosing to be kind and loving.

Jesus also claimed to be the only way to God.

 

[Fitswimmer]

Isaiah 55

8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,"
declares the LORD.

OT- I pulling for the Vols. It should help the RPI of my Longhorns.

I can use that same verse to prove my point too. Our ways are to condemn, to punish and to judge--that's what humans do.

God could have chosen to just allow everyone into Heaven because He loves everyone whether they believe in Him or not. God could have chosen another way besides allowing Jesus Christ to die on the cross because that just seems too barbaric and cruel. God could have said just be nice most of the time and I'll let you into Heaven because I am Love.

I believe God could STILL choose to do. I don't think God's ability to choose ended when the books of the Bible were codified.

I obey the teachings of the Bible and my Church because I believe that it is the best way for me to show my gratititude to God and my love for Him. Again, I go back to my own parents. I got good grades in school and kept my nose clean because I loved them and didn't want to disappoint them-not because I was afraid they would cut me out of the will. I live my life the way I do because I don't want to disappoint God either, not because I'm expecting jewels in my crown in heaven or something like that.

WAY off topic...GO VOL's! I'm really a Pat Summit fan, but I'm happy when the guys win too.

 

[GRUMPY PIRATE]

Because I post on the DIS!!

and she has a good sense of humor!!