A Missing Kid Story

[justmestace]

Um, no, you don't. Based on your "Cruise Fare" explanation, those cruising without children would pay less than those cruising with children. They don't.

- Dreams

Huh? I don't understand what you mean.

 

[justmestace]

I don't know if this was based on my previous reply to you, but if it is, I apologize. Upon reading it again, what was meant to lighten the mood may come across as mean. Tone doesn't carry well on the Internet.

No, not at all.

I just needed to step away before I got myself into "trouble" in general.
And I had work to do. Stupid work.

 

[Fielhol]

I'm NOT judging who was right/wrong refund/passes etc... What I am saying is when my DD was 4 she got lost in Target and they had LOTS of procedures in place to find her...from calling out a code, to radioing all the team members, alerting security, the store manager and having someone stand by the doors watching for her with all the folks leaving the store. This all happened literally within 3 minutes. I find it EXTREMELY hard to believe that a HUGE company like Disney doesn't have the same if not more procedures in place. I mean if Target can ....

And yes they found my DD actually in a shopping cart with a woman trying to leave the store Now it took 11 minutes to find her...and I was so RELIEVED to have my DD back that it never crossed my mind to ask Target for some type of compensation.

I am so happy you found your DD!! I would have went insane on the woman trying to take my kid out of the store. Toys r us in Canada did the same thing when my DD got separated from me. I went up to an associate who was stacking chips and told her my child was missing. She literally threw the box of chips on the floor and the store went into lockdown. And all available staff spread out inspecting all areas. They found my DD crying in the Barbie aisle. I was so impressed with their procedure.

 

[flexsmom]

I may regret this in the morning, but here goes.

A lot of people on this thread are talking about not liking how DCL has the clubs set up based on this account. Some are upset that 3-year olds & 12-year olds are in the same space and that the older kids will hurt (intentionally or not) the younger ones if there isn't adequate supervision. Some are upset that this child was able to wander away and hide/sleep. Some of the comments caused me to sit back and think about our experiences on the ships. Honestly, I don't know that there's going to be any "perfect" system that makes everyone happy.

My kids have run the gauntlet of Flounders, Club, Lab, Edge, and now nearly Vibe (if we make it that long.....we might be ready to venture forth somewhere else for variety!) The first time we went on DCL, DD was 3 and is now 14, so that tells you how long ago it was. I can't do math until after I have a glass of wine at this time of day. Anyhow, at that time, the Club was strictly for the younger kids, and the Lab was strictly for older kids. I think the ages were 3-7 and 8-11, but don't hold me to it. There wasn't a Dream or a Fantasy, so we're talking about two spaces on opposite sides of the Deck 5 area. Also, kids were really encouraged to participate in the scheduled activities. The counsellors would allow a pretty stubborn kid to sit out, but generally speaking, you'd hear about it (in a nice way) if they ended up sitting on the sidelines.

So - over time, parents were complaining about a couple of things that you'd read about often on this board. First - "What if my 10 year old wants to play with my 3-year old and why can't they?" Second - "What if my kid really doesn't want to do the scheduled activity? How come there aren't enough "other" activities for them to run around to do or the CMs won't let them free-play"? Third - "What if my 10-year old wants to do the Princess story-telling time that is geared to 3-4 year olds? How come she/he cannot?"

After a couple of years of reading about these debates - and I don't remember if this was coincident with the launching of the Dream and the Fantasy or not - DCL changed its approach. The age groupings went away. Siblings could now be together - even if it's a 3-year old and an 10-year old or an 11-year old who opted for Lab vice Edge. Yes, activities are still geared to certain ages (and color-coded as such), but any of the registered kids can participate. (As an aside, I'm not sure why I keep reading on this thread about 3-year olds and 12-year olds together. 12-year olds are in the Edge. Even 11-year olds age into the Edge and I think they can sometimes choose one or the other. If there are a bunch of 12-year olds in the Lab and I'm incorrect about this, I apologize, but I'm pretty sure that there's flexibility with the 11s, but not with the 12s. I realize there's even a big gap between age 3 and 11, but wanted to point out that out.) Also, since it's more free-wheeling, kids aren't pushed/encouraged to participate in the scheduled activities. At the request and input of consumers/parents - there are a LOT more separate playthings to keep kids busy that they can choose to do at any time, without asking a CM, or without it being "planned".

My point is this. A lot of changes were made because parents clamored for kids to be able to do what they wanted to do, when they wanted to do them, with whoever they wanted to do them with, if they were registered in the clubs. As a result.....voila (or is that "walla").....you have instant mayhem. They've done a decent job at making one area more appealing to the younger set, and one area more appealing to the older ones, but that's all it is.....subtle magnetism to try to keep the ages apart and preclude that older-child-on-younger-child injury or interaction that might go bad.

In my experience, the CMs are like ants in the Club/Lab space on the Dream and Fantasy. They are all over the place, but it is a free-area for kids to roam, and they do NOT herd them or know where each and every one of them is. When my kids were 3 and 4 under the old system, it seemed to me to be more orderly and unless it was a free-play time, it was super easy to find your kid.

I have found that getting out of ANY of the club spaces is a security task and I've never seen anyone "slip" through. Of course that doesn't mean it doesn't happen, but if it was a regular occurance, I doubt DCL would shrug it off, even if they covered it with NDAs and confidential settlements, as has been stated here. Even with the gadgets and gizmos used to check in and check out....they still resort to the old-fashioned password. IMHO, they have pretty decent layers of security, even compared to any of the daycare centers I've used.

I do admit that once I had to hunt around for 20 minutes to find one of the kids on CC. It was frustrating, and I took the CMs somewhat casual attitude about it to mean that they were really sure she was somewhere around the area and hadn't gotten away. It was easy for my mind to wander to worst-case scenarios. My guess is that there is a parent freak-out about once a cruise, every cruise. It's understandable. The mind goes crazy thinking about the big ship, the big ocean, an abundance of strangers.....and then you find the child sleeping, or playing in a corner digging sand in Scuttle's Cove......and I bet it happens more often now, because DCL changed their programming so that kids could do more of what they wanted to do when they wanted to do it. I'd say the CMs aren't intending to be callous or rude - but rather they know from experience what happens. They can and should learn to balance their knowledge that it will likely be ok with meaningful expressions of support vice appearing to be indifferent - and they have probably already looked into why some bracelets ever are "unreadable".

Didn't intend to write War & Peace here. I just thought the historical aspect of the change of approach was kind of interesting (to me anyway!) once I thought about how the atmosphere of the clubs has evolved. I'd love to hear if anyone else has had the same observations. Or if I should just crawl back into my non-posting hole!

 

[manateesmom]

The level of security doesn't mean squat if a kid's bracelet doesn't work, he "disappears", and the CMs don't IMMEDIATELY start an all hands on deck search of the club.

Amen.

 

[manateesmom]

I was told previously that DCL makes sure that no child (under 18) is allowed off the ship without their parent. When the KTTW card is swiped a picture comes up along with basic info. That's why the gangplank is not the first place I would run to in a situation like the dad had.

So, in the face of one apparent DCL security failure (not knowing where the 3 year old was), you'd trust in another DCL security protocol? You really think you'd assume that all was going according to procedures at the gangplank, given that no one could even tell you for sure that your kid was still in the kids' club and the monitoring device wasn't working?

I'm not trying to be confrontational or to use labels, but your assumptions are based upon a deep trust in DCL that this particular parent had no reason to feel.

 

[neg58]

We priced out cruises the week she would board as a two year old and the week she would board as a three year old. Both cruises she was the third person, both cruises the adult fare would have been the same. The fare they wanted for her as a two-year-old was significantly less than the fare as a three-year-old. The only difference between the two was her automatic access to the clubs. So yes, they are part of the calculated cruise fare. Was it the entire cost for the clubs for the week? Probably not. But it was enough money difference to make us take the risk they wouldn't let her in.

There is a fare for 0-2 year olds that is about half of the fare of a 3-12 year old. It is assumed, for the vast majority of 0-2 year olds, that they won't be using the club, would have to pay for the nursery, still need a place in a lifeboat, etc. A 6 month old probably won't even be eating any food, but pays the same as a 35 month old who may eat like a truck driver and use the Club. But a 3-12 year old pays just a little less than the third adult in a cabin (unless that 3 year old is the 2nd person in a cabin, then pays the adult full fare), and at least on the cruise I picked to check, a 13-17 year old pays the same as the third adult. It is assumed that the adults will use the adult venues, the teens the teen clubs, all will eat, etc.

A 0-3 year old in the parks is free, so we are all paying for their time at the parks as a part of our tickets. On the ships, they have to charge for the babies as they have to account for them, reserve them a lifeboat seat, have extra water use and generate trash.

I've never really agreed with having different fares for kids and adults. Child at the movies is taking up the same seat as the adult. Seat is a seat. Child riding the Dumbo ride is taking up a seat, so why should it be less?

But that's just me.

Nancy

 

[Green Tea]

I may regret this in the morning, but here goes.

!

A GREAT sort of history of the evolution. I'm so glad you posted!! Thank you!

 

[lilpooh108]

And yes they found my DD actually in a shopping cart with a woman trying to leave the store

holy crap. did you press charges?

 

[manateesmom]

This is what I'm saying, too! If the CMs said the child is in the club/lab and Dad couldn't find him and panicked, started running around the ship, etc., then that is not at all DCL's fault. The kid was where he was supposed to be and where the Dad was told he was.

If the CMs said, nope, no kid here when in fact the kid was there (b/c of a problem at check-in or with the bracelet not working) and Dad panicked, that is a different story. Not a free cruise kind of story, but definitely something needing to be addressed.

But the CMs put out a ship-wide alert looking for the kid. Which says to me that they DIDN'T know for certain that the kid was in the club. As it turned out, he was, but why alert people outside the club to a missing kid unless you think it's possible that the kid got out of the club? If even the CMs think it's possible, how do you fault the dad for thinking it?

 

[Weedy]

So do you think the cast members in the club actually know how many kids are in there at one time? It would be nearly impossible. Parents are dropping off and picking up their kids all day and night. It's add 1 subtract 2 all the time. And on a 3 day cruise the cast members don't get to know the kids as well.

Yes they should have known where the kid was but it is nearly impossible to track that many kids

One more question how many of us lost our toddlers in our own home for a few minutes or sometimes more.

 

[Octoberbride03]

so in your mind everything on the ship has to be revenue neutral or turn a profit ?

I think you already are paying for someone else's kids to use the club, the people who play bingo or use the gym and for the guy who eats way more than his fair share of food in the MDR's and for the "free" drinks that are 2-1 specials. Cruising isnt a la carte, you ultimately play for things even if you cant ( or chose not to) use them.

Where on earth did your first question come from

Please tell me where I made 1 statement about about profits or revenue. I know cruising isn't ala carte. I've been on 2 of them. However, I do think the bulk of the kids club fees are built into the KID's fare. Not the adult fares. I cruise without kids, therefore I pay adult fares. I responded a PP who stated I paid the same amount of money as someone with kids on DCL. That simply isn't true. And the way my last 10 days have gone, revenue and profit for anybody's business really has not entered my mind.

 

[manateesmom]

Where are folks getting the assumption that the wristband was correct and everyone should have known the baby was still in the club?

Do you know what "unreadable" would signal to me on an electronic wristband? In the pool. In the ocean. Under water. "Unreadable" would NOT signal to me that "of course" my child was still in the kids club.

I'd also say that "unreadable" could mean damaged in a way that the child could still be in the kids' club but seriously harmed or deceased. Like, unreadable because his arm and head are submerged in a toilet. Unreadable because his bracelet and arm had been stomped on by a big kid. Other kids can cause harm, too. http://antonia-monacelli.hubpages.com/hub/Murderous-Children-Mary-Bell (story of an 11 year old who murdered a 3 year old, fwiw). Also, if nobody had eyes on this child when he disappeared and didn't know where he went, it is possible he got himself into a position to be hurt. A daycare provider in my town is on trial for a child who died due to positional asphyxia for getting a piece of clothing caught and then basically hanging herself, which happened because she was left unsupervised for so long that no one was there to save her.

I mean, "we don't have a clue where the kid is or what this reading means" is an alarming thing to hear from your childcare providers, and while I'm not sure that "probably still in the club" is the automatic conclusion to reach, even that does not necessarily mean "healthy and happy," kwim?

My concern comes back to the fact that the system apparently couldn't determine that the kid was in the kids' club, that the CMs must have thought it was possible he got out (hence the ship-wide missing kid alert), and no one in that room had eyeballs on the kid for at least the 45 minutes that dad was looking for him and presumably longer than that, and nobody noticed that the kid wasn't visibly playing anywhere any more. And for everyone who says it isn't one-on-one interaction, fine, but I still expect at least a lifeguard-level of CMs keeping their eyes scanning to keep an eye on what's going on.

If it IS normal for the kids' club, that a 3 year old could go missing for an hour or more and no one would notice that they hadn't seen him or that his bracelet had gone on the fritz, then good for this dad for publicizing it, because that's information that any parent should take into consideration when leaving their kids at the clubs.

 

[manhattanman]

Where on earth did your first question come from

Please tell me where I made 1 statement about about profits or revenue. I know cruising isn't ala carte. I've been on 2 of them. However, I do think the bulk of the kids club fees are built into the KID's fare. Not the adult fares. I cruise without kids, therefore I pay adult fares. I responded a PP who stated I paid the same amount of money as someone with kids on DCL. That simply isn't true. And the way my last 10 days have gone, revenue and profit for anybody's business really has not entered my mind.

you pay what disney thinks they can make a profit from, I suspect that in these all inclusive cruises/resorts line item payments are impossible to discern.Becuase you dont have kids, I think its naive to think that none of your cruise fare is going to the kids club.

if you know different, I'd like to hear it. I agree if you dont have kids they should not up charge you for the kids club ( i.e you pay in addition to the fare) but I dont know how you can say that your fare is or is not not proportionally going to any of a number of different costs on the ship ?

 

[tgropp]

Um, no, you don't. Based on your "Cruise Fare" explanation, those cruising without children would pay less than those cruising with children. They don't.

- Dreams

Are these people working for free? If not then yes, you are paying for it.

 

[lbgraves]

So do you think the cast members in the club actually know how many kids are in there at one time? It would be nearly impossible.

This is one reason why they stopped taking the kids to the buffet for lunch & dinner and now have them eat in the clubs. When they do take the kids to a different location -- kid show in WDT, BB court for activities, and even when they move the kids as a group to the lab or club when open house occurs -- they stop check in/out and have two CMs do a head count. They then have the kids form a line and have CMs along that line while the kids are transferred to the location. When they go up or down the stairs to the WDT the CMs block the stairs so that other guests cannot use the stairs for that moment or be able to take a kid out of the line. When they arrive, two CMs again do a head count. They do not allow a kid to check themselves out or be checked out until that head count matches. I have witnessed this several times over the years.

 

[faithtrustpixie]

The thing that keeps bugging me about this whole situation is the man's complaints about his wife's birthday being "ruined". While I can sympathize with her feeling panicked, I would certainly feel fortunate to have everything turn out fine with a healthy unharmed child. I understand them wanting professional attention for legitimate complaints but not receiving specific attention on one's birthday would not have been a big priority. I also noticed, he didn't mention if his child continued to have fun on the cruise.

But maybe that's just me....

 

[bmer1rick]

So do you think the cast members in the club actually know how many kids are in there at one time? It would be nearly impossible. Parents are dropping off and picking up their kids all day and night. It's add 1 subtract 2 all the time. And on a 3 day cruise the cast members don't get to know the kids as well.

Yes they should have known where the kid was but it is nearly impossible to track that many kids

One more question how many of us lost our toddlers in our own home for a few minutes or sometimes more.

Actually, they do on the Dream/Fantasy and I think they do on the Wonder/Magic. Its been a couple of years since we have been on the Magic/Wonder, but I seem to remember it there also.

If you look at the computer screen when you check your child out of the club/lab, there is a number at the top of the screen with the total number of children in the club/lab.

Check it out next time when you leave the club/lab.

 

[GoofyTwinDad]

But the CMs put out a ship-wide alert looking for the kid. Which says to me that they DIDN'T know for certain that the kid was in the club. As it turned out, he was, but why alert people outside the club to a missing kid unless you think it's possible that the kid got out of the club? If even the CMs think it's possible, how do you fault the dad for thinking it?

They probably alerted necessary CM's due to part of their procedures. In this case the father was running around like a wild man and not knowing the behind the scenes actions that DCL were doing to find the lost boy. There is zero chance in this instance that DCL did not follow the recommended procedure when a child goes missing. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean they are not performing their duties. I have worked security jobs in the past and I was trained to handle these type of situations under extreme calm. I am sure CM's are well trained to handle any situation with the same calm. Unfortunately being calm in this instance was misconstued as lack of "empathy".

 

[justmestace]

This is one reason why they stopped taking the kids to the buffet for lunch & dinner and now have them eat in the clubs. When they do take the kids to a different location -- kid show in WDT, BB court for activities, and even when they move the kids as a group to the lab or club when open house occurs -- they stop check in/out and have two CMs do a head count. They then have the kids form a line and have CMs along that line while the kids are transferred to the location. When they go up or down the stairs to the WDT the CMs block the stairs so that other guests cannot use the stairs for that moment or be able to take a kid out of the line. When they arrive, two CMs again do a head count. They do not allow a kid to check themselves out or be checked out until that head count matches. I have witnessed this several times over the years.

Darn! I was hoping you were going to say that they didn't take them out at all!

When they take them to the "secret" aft open verandah to play, it's really loud and annoying if you have the adjacent staterooms to that area. And that's where I am for our next cruise.