A message to ISIS

[Domo]

 

[Patch'sD]

Let me help. We are coming for you. You won't be able to hide, You won't be able to run, The last thing you will see is a 2,000 pound smart bomb with made in the USA on it. So long Sucker.

 

[CPT Tripss]

An interesting mix of religion and politics . . .

 

[AnAmericanInDisney]

Do you think ISIS is worse than the drug gangs in Mexico or Central America? Maybe we should deal with problems on our own continent and with our next door neighbors first.

 

[skater]

Do you think ISIS is worse than the drug gangs in Mexico or Central America? Maybe we should deal with problems on our own continent and with our next door neighbors first.

I mostly agree. Except that they are using American citizens. I know that those citizens put themselves in those countries. But it still bugs me. There are lots of problems that one could argue should be dealt with.

 

[skater]

And my gut feeling is that they are worse. Genocide is always horrifying.

 

[Teresa Pitman]

I feel like we get into this vicious cycle: they kill some people in brutal, horrible ways. We strike back by killing some of their people. This makes them feel justified in their actions ("see how terrible they are! They are killing us!") especially if in the process some innocent bystanders are killed. And more people join them. They kill more people, we kill more people, and it goes on an on.

Somewhere we have to try to find a way to stop this cycle. I don't have a magic wand or any idea about how to make it happen, but surely there must be a way. Maybe we can get some researchers to go look at the most peaceful countries in the world - countries with a low crime rate, little inter-personal violence, and who don't attack other countries - and figure out what they are doing differently. Then we could try to make that happen everywhere.

TP

 

[AnAmericanInDisney]

I mostly agree. Except that they are using American citizens. I know that those citizens put themselves in those countries. But it still bugs me. There are lots of problems that one could argue should be dealt with.[/]

I bet there are more US citizens working for those drug cartels than for ISIS. Unless you're talking about the beheadings. Hate to say it but a Jewish journalist in Syria interviewing militants is taking a risk. He knew that going in.

 

[skater]

I feel like we get into this vicious cycle: they kill some people in brutal, horrible ways. We strike back by killing some of their people. This makes them feel justified in their actions ("see how terrible they are! They are killing us!") especially if in the process some innocent bystanders are killed. And more people join them. They kill more people, we kill more people, and it goes on an on.

Somewhere we have to try to find a way to stop this cycle. I don't have a magic wand or any idea about how to make it happen, but surely there must be a way. Maybe we can get some researchers to go look at the most peaceful countries in the world - countries with a low crime rate, little inter-personal violence, and who don't attack other countries - and figure out what they are doing differently. Then we could try to make that happen everywhere.

TP

They are evil. I really don't believe it makes a difference what we do or don't do. They're not going to change. People who give pass 14 year old girls around to be repeatedly raped don't change because somebody is nice to them. Nor do people who slowly saw through innocents' necks. Its our western values (various though they may be) that they hate. Sure, they may use a bombing as an excuse. But if we didn't retaliate for 3 years, do we really believe they would suddenly become decent people?

 

[Teresa Pitman]

Sorry, I'm not being clear on this. I'm not saying just be nice to them.

The thing is, from their point of view, they are good people, doing the right thing and we are evil. From our point of view, we are good people and they are evil. How can that be resolved? I don't know. I don't have the answer, and maybe there isn't one. But it seems to me that "I kill some of your guys, you kill some of mine, I kill some of yours" and on and on is not a good solution either.

TP

 

[skater]

Sorry, I'm not being clear on this. I'm not saying just be nice to them.

The thing is, from their point of view, they are good people, doing the right thing and we are evil. From our point of view, we are good people and they are evil. How can that be resolved? I don't know. I don't have the answer, and maybe there isn't one. But it seems to me that "I kill some of your guys, you kill some of mine, I kill some of yours" and on and on is not a good solution either.

TP

Yes, I know - and sorry - I didn't mean to pick on you. This is such a big topic to me right now. I'm not even sure that they really believe they are good people. Maybe some of them probably believe that. Some of them are simply psychopaths, IMO. Admittedly, I'm probably coming at it from a different viewpoint - I believe there is true evil in the world, and I believe its easy to define. Human trafficking for example is evil. How can a sane person believe its okay to rape children?

I'm using your quote, but really just posting my thoughts. Its a bizarre world we live in .

 

[Teresa Pitman]

How can a person believe it is okay to rape children? I don't know much about this, but my guess is they do it by convincing themselves that the children are "not human." The rapists see themselves as the true followers of God/Allah/whoever and those who do not share their beliefs are therefore lesser, not quite human. They see it as God's will that these people are punished. They may not have the same ideas we do about childhood, so rather than seeing young teens as children, they see them as adults.

If I can give an analogy: I am vegan. I think it is wrong to cause animals suffering to test cosmetics, or for our entertainment. I think it is wrong to raise them in horrendous conditions then slaughter them for food.

Other people see that as perfectly fine. Animals are not people, so it is okay. From my point of view, they may not be the same as us but they are sentient beings who feel pain, grieve when separated from their families, and suffer when we treat them so badly. I often find it hard to understand how other people around me don't see this and don't feel concern for the animals.

So I think the people committing these atrocities see the people they are harming much as many of us see animals.

I don't mean this to be a statement about being vegan - I was just trying to give an analogy that might express how the ISIS people feel.

TP

 

[skater]

How can a person believe it is okay to rape children? I don't know much about this, but my guess is they do it by convincing themselves that the children are "not human." The rapists see themselves as the true followers of God/Allah/whoever and those who do not share their beliefs are therefore lesser, not quite human. They see it as God's will that these people are punished. They may not have the same ideas we do about childhood, so rather than seeing young teens as children, they see them as adults.

If I can give an analogy: I am vegan. I think it is wrong to cause animals suffering to test cosmetics, or for our entertainment. I think it is wrong to raise them in horrendous conditions then slaughter them for food.

Other people see that as perfectly fine. Animals are not people, so it is okay. From my point of view, they may not be the same as us but they are sentient beings who feel pain, grieve when separated from their families, and suffer when we treat them so badly. I often find it hard to understand how other people around me don't see this and don't feel concern for the animals.

So I think the people committing these atrocities see the people they are harming much as many of us see animals.

I don't mean this to be a statement about being vegan - I was just trying to give an analogy that might express how the ISIS people feel.

TP

I am not vegan (love meat too much), but I'm heavily involved in animal rescue, so I totally understand your feelings. I have seriously wanted to hurt certain people because of what they've done to animals. But because I believe in universal rights and wrongs, I don't see it as an accurate analogy. I understand what you are saying, I just don't agree. Or maybe I just don't care about the why so much. It is universally wrong to rape children. If your belief system allows you to do this, it is wrong. That is the way I think. I know that not everybody agrees with this way of thinking, but it is my most basic belief that there are some things that are wrong no matter what.

 

[skylizard]

Do you think ISIS is worse than the drug gangs in Mexico or Central America? Maybe we should deal with problems on our own continent and with our next door neighbors first.

Yes, they're definitely worse. ISIS (along with all the other radical extremists) is a threat to the whole world. The drug cartels and gangs aren't as far reaching.

 

[skylizard]

Some of them are simply psychopaths, IMO. Admittedly, I'm probably coming at it from a different viewpoint - I believe there is true evil in the world, and I believe its easy to define. Human trafficking for example is evil. How can a sane person believe its okay to rape children?

Yes, I'd actually say that most of them are psychopaths. No sane person would back them or do the things that they've done. It's sad that there's still so much evil in the world.

 

[AnAmericanInDisney]

Yes, they're definitely worse. ISIS (along with all the other radical extremists) is a threat to the whole world. The drug cartels and gangs aren't as far reaching.

Your opinion. I'm much more likely to be killed by a heroin addict or somebody driving who's high than the ISIS boogieman. Therefore, it would be in my best interest to put resources toward drug traffickers and gangs (who also rape and kill innocents) and border patrols than into the Middle East.

 

[Mokat76]

Your opinion. I'm much more likely to be killed by a heroin addict or somebody driving who's high than the ISIS boogieman. Therefore, it would be in my best interest to put resources toward drug traffickers and gangs (who also rape and kill innocents) and border patrols than into the Middle East.

Except ISIS and other Islamic extremist groups would willingly kill you just because you don't believe as they do. Because you are an infidel. You can't negotiate with that kind of fanaticism. They are a far greater threat than drug runners or gangs.

 

[skater]

Except ISIS and other Islamic extremist groups would willingly kill you just because you don't believe as they do. Because you are an infidel. You can't negotiate with that kind of fanaticism. They are a far greater threat than drug runners or gangs.

And there's something about genocide.

 

[Mokat76]

And there's something about genocide.

These groups are horrifying. This is evil incarnate.

 

[Teresa Pitman]

Yes, I'd actually say that most of them are psychopaths. No sane person would back them or do the things that they've done. It's sad that there's still so much evil in the world.

And yet. I look back at the not-all-that-distant history of the Western world. Remember slavery? That happened because a large number of people believed that Africans were not human. Even the Supreme Court said they didn't count. There were so many horrors: lynchings, raping of slave women by their "masters," selling off small children, beatings, and killing those who tried to escape. Even once slavery was ended, the racism and atrocities continued. I am old enough to remember the first attempts to integrate public schools in the southern states, and I will never forget seeing on TV the twisted, ugly, hateful faces of the people in the crowds - and they were large crowds - as those little dark-skinned children walked to the schools under police guard. It was terrible.

Were all those people psychopaths? I don't think so. If I had been brought up in a slave-owning family, taught since childhood that those Africans were not human and did not deserve respect or even life, would I have been the same? I hate to think so, but I don't know for sure.

TP