A comment about moore's bad editing in F 9/11

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Originally posted by wvrevy
Um, it's not a belief, it's the facts...Card himself has stated that what he whispered in the president's ear was, "A second plane has hit the second tower. America is under attack." That's not a guess on my part, that's exactly what he said.

Here's one story from CBS News on the subject:

Bush on 9-11, moment by moment

Don't blame me that your source was wrong :)

but you're not backing your other thoughts with fact....

you claim the pres did nothing..didn't care..do you know for a fact that he didn't brief his staff before entering the class room...do you know for a fact that he didn't use the time between his first awareness of events and the time Secret service would take him away to visit with the children...

you see a look of cluelessness on his face...many people after seeing that newsclip on 9/11 and the days shortly after..saw a man who was troubled and deep in thought.

what makes you right and others wrong..??
 
Originally posted by Eeyore1954
Insults? Hmm, seems like you are just fine dishing them out, but when served a heaping portion of your own cooking you cry foul? :sad: :rolleyes: *YAWN* Just because you repeat something, especially THIS LINE, doesn't mean that your assumptions/conclusions about what happened are 100% accurate. You consistently claim President Bush did nothing, when that is absolutely untrue. When called on this, you get your nose out of joint. Too bad, so sad, buh-bye!
Please point out where I've insulted you without provocation. C'mon, hotshot....Put up or shut up. I'm sick of being of this crap when I didn't do it.

As for the rest of your post, to quote your oh-so-brilliant comment:

*yawn* You're absolutely right, Steve...The president DOES have the telepathic ability to communicate with his staff without actually speaking, in plain view of about 100 reporters. Gee, how did I miss that :rolleyes:
 
Originally posted by MICKEY88
but you're not backing your other thoughts with fact....

you claim the pres did nothing..didn't care..do you know for a fact that he didn't brief his staff before entering the class room...do you know for a fact that he didn't use the time between his first awareness of events and the time Secret service would take him away to visit with the children...

you see a look of cluelessness on his face...many people after seeing that newsclip on 9/11 and the days shortly after..saw a man who was troubled and deep in thought.

what makes you right and others wrong..??
Why do I think he didn't do that ? Well, because he didn't. :) Nowhere has the president ever stated that he "briefed his staff" before going out there. He never even spoke to his national security advisor before being told of the second plane hitting. He didn't KNOW it was an attack until the second plane hit, remember ? Neither did anyone else. (Despite Steve's idiotic attempts to say that we're trying to say he should have been psychic).

I never said he looked clueless, by the way, just stupid... ;) But the point was that he SAT there, and that is FACT, not speculation.
 
Originally posted by ThreeCircles
So, he's just told that the U.S. is under attack and his content with that amount of information.

Yeah, that's a bit odd.

only odd if you don't trust those around you to do their jobs...
 

Originally posted by wvrevy
Why do I think he didn't do that ? Well, because he didn't. :) Nowhere has the president ever stated that he "briefed his staff" before going out there. He never even spoke to his national security advisor before being told of the second plane hitting. He didn't KNOW it was an attack until the second plane hit, remember ? Neither did anyone else. (Despite Steve's idiotic attempts to say that we're trying to say he should have been psychic).

I never said he looked clueless, by the way, just stupid... ;) But the point was that he SAT there, and that is FACT, not speculation.


There still is the oustanding question no one apparently, or is able to answer. Let's assume, then that he did excuse himself and bought back those 7 minutes. What event that happened that day would not have happened? What would have changed? What was the President supposed to do that that wasn't already being done?
 
Originally posted by wvrevy
Please point out where I've insulted you without provocation. C'mon, hotshot....Put up or shut up. I'm sick of seeing you on here running you mouth like you have a damn clue...PROVE it, or prove to everyone that you're nothing but a petty little punk that can't hold his own in an argument without resorting to insults.

C'mon, hotshot...Put up or shut the hell up, 'cause I'm tired of it.
Oh wowzers, this really cuts me deeply. :laughing:

You do take all this way too seriously. Maybe you need to back off and go have a cold one or two. It might keep you from having a stroke or heart attack over this thread. :earseek:

I know it's tough realizing you are wrong about things ... it's tough to handle the first time or two. I know -- been there. But it gets easier with time & practice. :smooth:
 
Originally posted by wvrevy
I never said he looked clueless, by the way, just stupid... ;) But the point was that he SAT there, and that is FACT, not speculation.
And once again, the question is posed (which has been ignored so far): Have you watched the entire 7 minutes of video or are you simply assuming this based on what you have been told and snippets seen on TV? Exactly HOW do you know what he did and did not do? Were you there?
 
Originally posted by wvrevy
Why do I think he didn't do that ? Well, because he didn't. :) Nowhere has the president ever stated that he "briefed his staff" before going out there. He never even spoke to his national security advisor before being told of the second plane hitting. He didn't KNOW it was an attack until the second plane hit, remember ? Neither did anyone else. (Despite Steve's idiotic attempts to say that we're trying to say he should have been psychic).

I never said he looked clueless, by the way, just stupid... ;) But the point was that he SAT there, and that is FACT, not speculation.

this report contradicts your point..


9/11: Bush didn't react to attack for minutes, report says
Bloomberg News


WASHINGTON — President George W. Bush didn't react for five to seven minutes after learning a second aircraft had hit New York's World Trade Center on Sept. 11, 2001, because he was trying to "project strength and calm," a national commission investigating the attacks said.
At 9:05 a.m. on that day, Bush was in a second-grade classroom at the Emma E. Booker Elementary School in Sarasota, Florida, for an event designed to prod Congress to pass his education proposals. Bush had been told that one plane, possibly a commercial jet, had hit the South Tower 19 minutes earlier.
In a moment captured on video and replayed, White House Chief of Staff Andrew Card whispered in Bush's ear, saying, "A second plane hit the second tower. America is under attack." Bush's face froze, his lips tight.
"The president told us his instinct was to project calm, not to have the country see an excited reaction at a moment of crisis," the Sept. 11 commission said in a staff statement issued in Washington today at the panel's last public hearing before it issues a final report next month.
The U.S. government and its military, on perpetual alert for attacks from overseas, weren't trained or prepared to respond to the suicide hijackings in domestic airspace, the commission said in a report giving the timeline of the attacks and the responses of the Federal Aviation Administration and the North American Aerospace Defense Command.
At 8:55 a.m. on Sept. 11, nine minutes after the first airliner slammed into the trade center, National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice told Bush that a plane, either a multiengine craft or a commercial jet, had struck the center.
"That's all we know right now, Mr. President," Rice said on a secure telephone from Washington, according to the commission report. The FAA and NORAD already knew the first plane had been hijacked and a second was missing, the panel said.
Reporters traveling with Bush's motorcade to the school overheard a voice on a Secret Service agent's radio saying Rice had an urgent call for the president and would be waiting on a secure line that White House staff had set up inside the school.
Behind a blue-curtained partition next to the classroom where Bush would speak to second-graders, the White House had set up a work area with secure telephone lines.
Reporters peered around that partition into the work area and saw White House Communications Director Dan Bartlett on the telephone, his face pale. What he was saying was inaudible.
Behind Bartlett, with his back to reporters, Bush was on a telephone for several minutes with Card standing next to him. After the call, Bush conferred briefly with Card before nodding to White House aides to go ahead and begin the school event.
For the next five to seven minutes Bush went through the prearranged event, greeting students, smiling and asking them about their reading habits. He sat on a small chair, his knees pulled up in front of his chest, looking somewhat distracted.
"Bush made the right decision in remaining calm, in not rushing out of the classroom," said Lee Hamilton, vice chairman of the Sept. 11 commission and a former Democratic congressman from Indiana.
At one point the president got up to tousle the hair of a student and leaned up against the edge of a table. He nodded as the students went through their reading exercises, saying, "That's good, that's good."
Card came forward and whispered in Bush's ear delivering his message. "I told the president, 'The second tower has been hit. America is under attack,"' Card told reporters later.
"When they learned a second plane had struck the World Trade Center, nearly everyone in the White House told us they immediately knew it was not an accident," the commission staff reported.
Bush hurried to finish the school event, thanking the students for the time and encouraging them to keep working.

it appears he Did in fact talk talk to Condoleeza Rice before entering the classroom.. was on the secured phone line in the school..and conferred briefly with Card before nodding to White House aides to go ahead and begin the school event.

he then cut the visit short after being told of the second plane...
 
Originally posted by dmadman43
There still is the oustanding question no one apparently, or is able to answer. Let's assume, then that he did excuse himself and bought back those 7 minutes. What event that happened that day would not have happened? What would have changed? What was the President supposed to do that that wasn't already being done?
Ah, see, THIS is another issue entirely. At this point, I don't know that anything would have changed as far as the results of the terrorist actions against us. Maybe...and that's a big maybe...quicker response on the part of the entire government may have kept the pentagon from being hit, but that's debateable at best.

My point about his lack of leadership in this situation was that it was his job to be in charge of the situation, and he very clearly wasn not.

Did you vote for a president to be in charge and make command decisions as quickly as humanly possible, or did you vote for a man who would rather "delegate" until he can gather himself enough to actually become involved in the situation ? Is there ANY scenario in which the nation was better served by the president sitting in front of a class full of kids and reporters rather than getting the information the very second it became available ?

I'm not trying to blame the president for anything that happened that day. May whole argument has been that it was a mistake to not leave the moment he was told of the second plane hitting, and it reflects very poorly on his leadership abilities that he would rather his underlings relay the information to him rather than getting it himself. This isn't some ordinary issue we're discussing that could easily be delegated. We're talking about a massive attack on the United States, on our own soil.
 
Originally posted by MICKEY88
this report contradicts your point..


9/11: Bush didn't react to attack for minutes, report says
Bloomberg News

That article actually proves my point....He sat there for some minutes after being told, trying to "project calm", whatever that means...Yes, it seems I was incorrect (or, rather, CBS was) in saying that he hadn't spoken to Rice before the second plane hit, but that doesn't change the fact that he DID sit there for several minutes, without communicating with his staff, before doing anything at all.

BTW...Don't let Steve see this article...He's still under the delusion that Bush immediately went Rambo upon hearing of the second attack :rolleyes:
 
Originally posted by wvrevy
I never said he looked clueless, by the way, just stupid... ;) But the point was that he SAT there, and that is FACT, not speculation.
The link you provided doesn't give any details about reporters observed from the time that Bush was told about the second attack to the time that he went to the classroom that had been set up with the secure phone.

The report says that in that time period he looked at the kids and thought about the enormity of the situation, looked at the press and saw that they were beginning to get word--obviously he knew that his demeanor at that time would be tremendously important. The press was there and would be showing it to the nation.

Within 7 minutes he was talking to Cheney, within 25 minutes he was addressing the nation.

There's nothing in the link you provided to prove that Bush wasn't told that secure communications were being set up so he could talk to Cheney.
 
Originally posted by wvrevy
BTW...Don't let Steve see this article...He's still under the delusion that Bush immediately went Rambo upon hearing of the second attack :rolleyes:
Funny how you can completely ignore what the article says. You claim President Bush did NOTHING and are completely unable to support that with anything remotely resembling a fact. But the article clearly states that he did something. Talk about being delusional... :rolleyes:
 
Originally posted by Eeyore1954
Funny how you can completely ignore what the article says. You claim President Bush did NOTHING and are completely unable to support that with anything remotely resembling a fact. But the article clearly states that he did something. Talk about being delusional... :rolleyes:
Yes, he "projected calm"....My apologies :rolleyes:

Talk about low expectations :rotfl:
 
Originally posted by wvrevy
Yes, he "projected calm"....My apologies :rolleyes:

Talk about low expectations :rotfl:
Hmm, so you reject what President Bush did and you ridicule the sole suggestion you made of what he might have done ("gone Rambo"). Oh, I forgot, you did suggest that he should have acted but provide scarce details of just what he should have done while acting.

It's always easy to criticize someone else when one doesn't have to walk in that person's shoes. But then again taking cheap pot shots at President Bush does seem to be your only forte. :rolleyes:
 
Originally posted by wvrevy
That article actually proves my point....He sat there for some minutes after being told, trying to "project calm", whatever that means...Yes, it seems I was incorrect (or, rather, CBS was) in saying that he hadn't spoken to Rice before the second plane hit, but that doesn't change the fact that he DID sit there for several minutes, without communicating with his staff, before doing anything at all.

BTW...Don't let Steve see this article...He's still under the delusion that Bush immediately went Rambo upon hearing of the second attack :rolleyes:

he was in communication with his staff, they were updating him as info became available..
again if you don't trust your staff to do their job why have them....perhaps your choice of president will be on duty 24/7 answering all phone calls himself..

the only thing you have convinced me of with your continued insistance that the pres should not rely on staff, is that you have little if any knowledge of the inner workings of Government..



whe faced with the fact that Bush had talked to Condoleeza Rice, you still won't admit you were wrong...you blame CBS for being wrong...


I'd put my confidence in the man who remains calm in crisis..rather than the man who says put up or shut up...anyday...
 
Originally posted by Eeyore1954
Hmm, so you reject what President Bush did and you ridicule the sole suggestion you made of what he might have done ("gone Rambo"). Oh, I forgot, you did suggest that he should have acted but provide scarce details of just what he should have done while acting.

It's always easy to criticize someone else when one doesn't have to walk in that person's shoes. But then again taking cheap pot shots at President Bush does seem to be your only forte. :rolleyes:
Actually, I'd say my "only forte" is making you look like a fool, but that's not exactly something that requires a great amount of skill :rotfl:

Ummm...I know reading comprehension isn't your strong point and all, but could you please point out exactly what it was Bush did between the time he was told and the time he left the class, 7 minutes or so later ? Seems to me that the article stated that he interacted with the class, but that's about it...nothing much there about coordinating communications...Nothing much there about getting on the phone with his national security advisor, vice president, secretary of defense or transportation....No, can't seem to find that....Why don't you point it out ?
 
Originally posted by ThreeCircles
Kbeverina you seem quick to put words into people's mouths. I never stated that that was the "point I came away with." Sorry, once again you are misinformed.
Here's what you said about the clip:


He was SO concerned with other nations about getting onboard to stop terrorism that he took several minutes away from his golf, right?

So that is my impression of the point you came away with. I stated that in a subsequent post:

You yourself say that his golf game was taking away from getting other nations onboard to stop terrorism.

Your reply to that was:


I think you're being dishonest in your answer Kbeverina.

You seem to be attempting to point out that w was not talking about terrorists in that clip and yet you agree that he was indeed talking about terrorists in that clip.

The fact of the matter remains, w was talking about terrorists.

If I was mistaken, why didn't you clarify at that time. You didn't. Why wouldn't I believe my impression was correct?


You also seem quick to state that everyone's opinion is wrong or that it's an outright lie. Do you do this in person as well? ::yes::
Please show where I've done that. You're the one being dishonest by trying to pretend I distorted or outright lied about your words. That's not a nice thing to do.
 
Originally posted by MICKEY88
he was in communication with his staff, they were updating him as info became available..
again if you don't trust your staff to do their job why have them....perhaps your choice of president will be on duty 24/7 answering all phone calls himself..
No, but I would expect him to be communicating with key peole to find out what was happening AS IT WAS HAPPENING, not 10 minutes after the fact. Unless he is telepathic, he was NOT communicating with his staff for those minutes while he was "projecting calm" for the tv cameras.
Originally posted by MICKEY88
the only thing you have convinced me of with your continued insistance that the pres should not rely on staff, is that you have little if any knowledge of the inner workings of Government..
What, are you taking lessons from Steve now on how to be insulting ? :rolleyes: Please point to ONE instance where I stated that, in a normal situation, the president should not rely on his staff ? This was not an ordinary situation, and a leader would have taken charge, not sat there with a goofy look on his face "projecting calm".
Originally posted by MICKEY88
whe faced with the fact that Bush had talked to Condoleeza Rice, you still won't admit you were wrong...you blame CBS for being wrong...
Oh, brother....Fine, I was wrong....Happy ?
Originally posted by MICKEY88
I'd put my confidence in the man who remains calm in crisis..rather than the man who says put up or shut up...anyday...
How about a man that says "Bring it on" ? Or maybe "F*** yourself" on the floor of the senate ? Watch out for those glass walls in that house of yours...
 
Originally posted by wvrevy
Actually, I'd say my "only forte" is making you look like a fool, but that's not exactly something that requires a great amount of skill :rotfl:

Ummm...I know reading comprehension isn't your strong point and all, but could you please point out exactly what it was Bush did between the time he was told and the time he left the class, 7 minutes or so later ? Seems to me that the article stated that he interacted with the class, but that's about it...nothing much there about coordinating communications...Nothing much there about getting on the phone with his national security advisor, vice president, secretary of defense or transportation....No, can't seem to find that....Why don't you point it out ?

coordinating communications...wow you really want bush to do it all.... the secret service techs handle that one.....

again I'm sure it's safe to say that his staff was well aware of how to handle the situation,,setting up communications..getting info and giving him the vital details...

and as far as such details being reported ,if it were a national emergency, I doubt reporters would have access to info as far as who he did or did not talk to...
 
Originally posted by MICKEY88
and as far as such details being reported ,if it were a national emergency, I doubt reporters would have access to info as far as who he did or did not talk to...


HE WAS IN PLAIN FRIGGIN' SIGHT !!!!!!!!

They don't have to GUESS who he talked to, THEY COULD FREAKING SEE HIM.

:rolleyes:

Geez.
 
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