A comment about moore's bad editing in F 9/11

[MICKEY88]

Originally posted by Eeyore1954
Amazing 20/20 vision you have ... today. I am sure that between 8 and 9:30 a.m. Eastern time on 09/11/2001 you were also absolutely certain that we were under attack. It's great to always be right and certain in your knowledge of what is happening hundreds or thousands of miles away, especially when at the exact same moment no one else knew exactly what was going on. No one was absolutely certain until some time after the first plane crashed that this was indeed a terrorist attack. But you can believe and spin this to suit your perspective. Others believe differently. And of course there's that historical record to deal with. Wow -- 7 minutes of not knowing what was going on? That really does get your knickers in a knot, doesn't it? It must be nice to live life knowing everything about everything that's going on every second of the day. Too bad the rest of us can't share in this special gift of yours. I don't have a problem because if you consider the timeline the events were just unfolding and information, such as it was, was being relayed through the appropriate channels. During this time the entire country -- well, except for you, of course -- was trying to figure out what was going on. Here in Chicago we had news reports (well, more like rumors) of plane crashes in Denver, hijackings in LA, etc. Everyone was trying to gather information, determine it's accuracy and get it out as quickly as possible.

It's really too bad that the President and his staff are all just humans. It would certainly be much better if they were all psychic and telepathic, right?

:thewave: :thewave:

Well stated...

 

[kbeverina]

Originally posted by jason
First of all thanks for clearing up my own thoughts for me. For the third time now I thought Bush was talking about terrorist. As for which terrorist, whats the difference between a terrorist from Afganistan and a terrorist from another part of the world?

jason. I'm not asking you if you thought Bush was talking about terrorists. I'm asking you to think back to when you were watching the movie and you saw that clip, was it your impression that Bush was talking about al Qaeda after 9/11? Not terrorists. We know he was talking about terrorists. Al Qaeda. It's an important distinction.

You seemed to admit that you did indeed think he was talking about al Qaeda when you said this:

I thought Bush was talking about terrorist and if my facts are correct al Qaeda is a terrorist group.

You seemed to agree that he was talking about al Qaeda, and you were pointing out to me that al Qaeda is a terrorist group, because for some reason you thought I was saying that he wasn't talking about terrorists(oddly enough, same thing ThreeCircles thought).

If you did not think he was talking about al Qaeda, then why did you point out that al Qaeda is a terrorist group when you thought you were trying to prove he was talking about terrorists?

Now that you are getting a glimmer of the point I'm trying to make, you're backing off and trying to say that you never assumed he was talking about al Qaeda.

 

[wvrevy]

Originally posted by kbeverina
Yes, I have reason to believe that the entire 7 minutes did not pass as shown by Moore.

I've seen several clips of the movie shown against clips of the full footage. I've seen congressmen relating what the film showed against what they said. I've seen narrative by Moore shown to be completely false. I've seen the soldier interviewed in the film who agrees with Moore's assertions complaining that the Iraq footage and reports on the soldiers there was distorted.

I have every reason to believe that Moore wanted you to think that Bush sat there like a bump on a log for 7 minutes looking scared and not knowing what to do so he took one or two minutes of that 7 and edited it together to give that impression. Unless any of us have seen the other 5 or 6 minutes, we can't say that that 1 or 2 was representative of the entire 7.

It's like the OP said--it would have been so effective to show the entire 7 minutes as they ticked off--what was another 5 or 6 added to the film? It's entirely reasonable to question the editing.

I can't really argue with that, kbev....If, in fact, he was doing more than sitting there like a bump on a frog, then I would retract some of my statements. I still firmly believe he should have been on the phone with Washington and getting the very-most up-to-date information available, but I wouldn't have quite so much of a problem if I believed he was at least staying involved and informed.

 

[wvrevy]

Originally posted by MICKEY88
WOW...calm down... is this the way you handle debate...getting upset if not everyone agrees with you...

was it known at that point in time that we were under attack...was he not given information... do you think Rudy handled everything on his own..without help from his staff..???

I don't have a problem with it because I have very good knowledge of the way government works..even in times of crisis, leaders must rely on the staff around them to do their jobs, no leader can do it all themselves...

what I saw that day was a leader who remained calm in the face of crisis..setting a good example for those open minded enough to see it..


if you think that a president or governor in time of federal or state disaster/crisis drops everything and only focuses on that event..then you are uninformed..

I'm perfectly calm, thanks...Condescend much ?

You're absolutely right...He SHOULD have been focussing on the reading lesson...That was SO much more important than what was going on in NYC and Washington...Whatever you say...

 

[wvrevy]

Post to Steve deleted because I'm tired of talking to someone incapable of understanding reason without making smart aleck comments.

 

[MICKEY88]

Originally posted by wvrevy
I can't really argue with that, kbev....If, in fact, he was doing more than sitting there like a bump on a frog, then I would retract some of my statements. I still firmly believe he should have been on the phone with Washington and getting the very-most up-to-date information available, but I wouldn't have quite so much of a problem if I believed he was at least staying involved and informed.

he was getting the most up to date info...thru his very qualified staff..but there wasn't a whole lot of info yet at that time.....everyone was trying to get info and verify it...
I also recall that phone systems went crazy that morning and getting info was difficult..

that combined with the needed time for the secret service to prepare his early departure, basically meant one thing...he either stayed in the classroom fulfilling a commitment, or perhaps waited in a hallway for the secret service to say..we may leave now..

I'm quite sure that the Secret service took extra precautions/time to ensure that the attacks weren't meant as a distraction to get them to hastily rush the pres out into the open making him an easy target..

 

[MICKEY88]

Originally posted by wvrevy
I'm perfectly calm, thanks...Condescend much ?

You're absolutely right...He SHOULD have been focussing on the reading lesson...That was SO much more important than what was going on in NYC and Washington...Whatever you say...

I don't condescent at all, but obviously you do..

I'm putting out facts on the way the system works, you're putting out your personal feelings..and because I disagree you must talk about gettin it thru my friggin head..and now roll your eyes and get condescending,,,

put your personal feelings out there all ya want, I'm not going to agree with them..especially when you debate in such a manner..

have you ever worked in the government....seen the secret service in action...??? on what do you base your feelings...

 

[wvrevy]

Originally posted by MICKEY88
he was getting the most up to date info...thru his very qualified staff..but there wasn't a whole lot of info yet at that time.....everyone was trying to get info and verify it...
I also recall that phone systems went crazy that morning and getting info was difficult..

that combined with the needed time for the secret service to prepare his early departure, basically meant one thing...he either stayed in the classroom fulfilling a commitment, or perhaps waited in a hallway for the secret service to say..we may leave now..

I'm quite sure that the Secret service took extra precautions/time to ensure that the attacks weren't meant as a distraction to get them to hastily rush the pres out into the open making him an easy target..

As I stated to kbev, it's my understanding that he did not get ANY info for the 7 minutes in question, and I don't know how it's supposed to be a good thing even if he was, since the info had to be relayed through another link in the chain (meaning more time between when the info was available and when he had it). As I've said 568 times now (at least) I have no idea if it would have made any difference, and I honestly doubt it. But that's not really the point.

As for the secret service and his travel, if you've traveled anywhere with the president's mobile team you know that there is ALWAYS a communication center VERY near-to-hand...as there was on this day. A classroom in the school had been set aside for their use. Had the president simply excused himself and gone into that room, he would have been instantly accessible to all of his oh-so-well-trained people, and any decisions that needed to be made could have been made immediately, not after someone walks out to whisper in the president's ear.

 

[MICKEY88]

Originally posted by wvrevy
As I stated to kbev, it's my understanding that he did not get ANY info for the 7 minutes in question, and I don't know how it's supposed to be a good thing even if he was, since the info had to be relayed through another link in the chain (meaning more time between when the info was available and when he had it). As I've said 568 times now (at least) I have no idea if it would have made any difference, and I honestly doubt it. But that's not really the point.

As for the secret service and his travel, if you've traveled anywhere with the president's mobile team you know that there is ALWAYS a communication center VERY near-to-hand...as there was on this day. A classroom in the school had been set aside for their use. Had the president simply excused himself and gone into that room, he would have been instantly accessible to all of his oh-so-well-trained people, and any decisions that needed to be made could have been made immediately, not after someone walks out to whisper in the president's ear.

this section of a report that someone else posted earlier in this thread, seems to describe the events differently that you............



For the next five to seven minutes Bush went through the prearranged event, greeting students, smiling and asking them about their reading habits. He sat on a small chair, his knees pulled up in front of his chest, looking somewhat distracted.
"Bush made the right decision in remaining calm, in not rushing out of the classroom," said Lee Hamilton, vice chairman of the Sept. 11 commission and a former Democratic congressman from Indiana.
At one point the president got up to tousle the hair of a student and leaned up against the edge of a table. He nodded as the students went through their reading exercises, saying, "That's good, that's good."
Card came forward and whispered in Bush's ear delivering his message. "I told the president, 'The second tower has been hit. America is under attack,"' Card told reporters later.
"When they learned a second plane had struck the World Trade Center, nearly everyone in the White House told us they immediately knew it was not an accident," the commission staff reported.
Bush hurried to finish the school event, thanking the students for the time and encouraging them to keep working. He made no mention of the education bill or Congress's need to pass it. Instead he stepped behind the blue partition to talk with Card and others.
Reporters were prevented from looking behind the partition by White House advance staff. The commission report says the president's traveling staff focused on organizing his return to Washington.


it seems once the president heard of the second plane he ended the event..rather than staying for the rest of it... again...where did he do anything wrong..??

 

[Eeyore1954]

Originally posted by wvrevy
Post to Steve deleted because I'm tired of talking to someone incapable of understanding reason without making smart aleck comments.

Oh wvrevy, don't go getting on us now. Me? Make smart aleck comments?

Do we need a ? Maybe you need to the post a little closer to catch the in it.

Of course, you should know by now how I am and what happens after I the "Kool-aid"!

I hope you didn't get too bad a from my post. I did the fact that you thought enough of my post to . So don't just yet.

 

[LScot]

pictures!!

 

[ThreeCircles]

Originally posted by Eeyore1954
Oh wvrevy, don't go getting on us now. Me? Make smart aleck comments?

Do we need a ? Maybe you need to the post a little closer to catch the in it.

Of course, you should know by now how I am and what happens after I the "Kool-aid"!

I hope you didn't get too bad a from my post. I did the fact that you thought enough of my post to . So don't just yet.

Wow. Isn't that a fitting post for Steve! So many possible words to describe it, so little time.

 

[kbeverina]

Originally posted by wvrevy
I can't really argue with that, kbev....If, in fact, he was doing more than sitting there like a bump on a frog, then I would retract some of my statements. I still firmly believe he should have been on the phone with Washington and getting the very-most up-to-date information available, but I wouldn't have quite so much of a problem if I believed he was at least staying involved and informed.

I can tell you that getting on the phone and talking with Cheney or Rumsfeld or Powell would not be simply a matter of picking up the phone and dialing. Security would have to be established on both ends before any conversation took place. This could take several calls just for one secure call. We don't know where the call was being set up. Think about it. Seven minutes. Not a lot of time for the Secret Service to secure a location to set up secure communications.

If someone on the staff conveyed the message to Bush that this was being done, clearly he realized he had a few minutes to calmly end his meeting and not create panic.

It's more plausible that Bush was fully aware between 9:05 when he was told and 9:12 when he left that his staff was ramping up for his exit and establishing secure communications than it is plausible that he sat there and read a story while he decided what to do and everyone was standing around waiting for that decision.

I mean, thinking about it logically--we saw Card come in and update the president when the second plane hit. Clearly, the situation was being monitored offscreen. Logically it makes more sense that this is how the next 7 minutes unfolded.

Here's the link to the other thread:
http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=594721&perpage=15&pagenumber=9

 

[jason]

Originally posted by kbeverina
jason. I'm not asking you if you thought Bush was talking about terrorists. I'm asking you to think back to when you were watching the movie and you saw that clip, was it your impression that Bush was talking about al Qaeda after 9/11? Not terrorists. We know he was talking about terrorists. Al Qaeda. It's an important distinction.

You seemed to admit that you did indeed think he was talking about al Qaeda when you said this:


You seemed to agree that he was talking about al Qaeda, and you were pointing out to me that al Qaeda is a terrorist group, because for some reason you thought I was saying that he wasn't talking about terrorists(oddly enough, same thing ThreeCircles thought).

If you did not think he was talking about al Qaeda, then why did you point out that al Qaeda is a terrorist group when you thought you were trying to prove he was talking about terrorists?

Now that you are getting a glimmer of the point I'm trying to make, you're backing off and trying to say that you never assumed he was talking about al Qaeda.

Okay I'm confused. What was the original point again?

 

[flaps]

<Truth's thread./>

<I do not think it means what we think it means./>

<Inconceivable?/>

<Hmm.../>

 

[kbeverina]

Originally posted by jason
Okay I'm confused. What was the original point again?

The point is, to answer the question asked.

When you watched the film and you saw the clip where Bush is golfing and made the comment about terrorists, did you believe he was talking about al Qaeda after 9/11?

Yes or no, was that your impression?

 

[wvrevy]

Originally posted by Eeyore1954
Oh wvrevy, don't go getting on us now. Me? Make smart aleck comments?

Do we need a ? Maybe you need to the post a little closer to catch the in it.

Of course, you should know by now how I am and what happens after I the "Kool-aid"!

I hope you didn't get too bad a from my post. I did the fact that you thought enough of my post to . So don't just yet.

Actually, Steve, don't get too proud of yourself...A broken record would have the same affect...it would do about as good of a job of "arguing" it's point, and would become annoying in about the same amount of time

Originally posted by Mickey88
this section of a report that someone else posted earlier in this thread, seems to describe the events differently that you............

Frankly, that person is wrong. When Card entered the room he told Bush of the second plane hitting, and his final words were "America is under attack". The president asked no questions (like, "Is there another threat ?" or "Where is the attack coming from ?") and for seven minutes he did absolutely NOTHING. I'm sorry, but that is not "delegating", that's "freezing under (admittedly imense) pressure."

 

[jason]

Okay for the forth time now I thought he was talking about terrorist so I guess you can put al Qaeda in that group along with every other terrorist group in the world.

 

[ThreeCircles]

Originally posted by kbeverina
The point is, to answer the question asked.

When you watched the film and you saw the clip where Bush is golfing and made the comment about terrorists, did you believe he was talking about al Qaeda after 9/11?

Yes or no, was that your impression?

Wow! Talk about circular reasoning!

Her point is that w is talking about terrorists while golfing but it's another group of terrorists and not this group of terrorists. Therefore, terrorists should not be spoken of when golfing unless one is ultra sure of which terrorist group it is because we all know that they are so very different in the way that they are terrorists. I mean terrorists are not just terrorists when they terrorize and each group of terrorists is different from the next group of terrorists. While terrorist group A may indeed be part of the “War on Terrorism” we should all take care to understand that terrorist group B may or may not be a terrorist group that is included in the “War on Terrorism.”

To sum it up, she's attempting to defend w for his very un-presidental behavior.

 

[dmadman43]

Originally posted by ThreeCircles
And w made no effort to find out what was going on [at least in those seven minutes].

You know that...how? Based on what MM shows in the movie?