A comment about moore's bad editing in F 9/11

[Elwood Blues]

Originally posted by IamTink
[


Doesn't sound good enough for me.

And what good is it for you to speculate about what you guess Card said to the president? Bush shouldn't have been in the room. By the time Bush walked out to his car/helicopter, whatever he rode that day, he could have had an assessment. Critical time could have been saved. Maybe, just maybe the Pentagon wouldn't have been hit.

Why am I not surprised that my speculation doesn't sound good enough for you.

Why isn't it possible that they SS used most of those 7 minutes making new preparations for his departure since it was going to be different than planned? There wasn't any apparent immediate threat to Bush so there was no reason to whisk him away like they did when Reagan was shot.

Yes, those seven minutes could have allowed him the time to order that the plane that hit the Pentagon to be shot down before it hit. Ok, now I get it.

 

[Eeyore1954]

Originally posted by IamTink
I thought I made it very clear that I'm not any type of expert, as are none of us here.

Very good. I've always found Monday-morning quarterbacking an interesting activity, but ultimately a huge waste of time. Since hingsight is always 20/20, it's easy for us to sit in judgment and say "woulda, coulda, shoulda." Not that it makes any difference.

I don't know how old you (Eeyore1954) were when the garage explosion hit, if 1954 after Eeyore is your year of birth, then I'm surprised that it didn't occur to you.

I was at work when my boss came by saying a plane struck the WTC. My first reaction was that he was pulling my leg. The thought of that happening ... I've flown into/out of Newark, NJ, JFK and LaGuardia many times ... was absurd. When he said it's not a joke, my FIRST thought was that this was some horrible accident. It took me several minutes to even think about logging onto the Internet to try and find some news. So, no -- my first thought nor my 2nd or even 3rd was of a terrorist attack.

Having said that I also have to say that everyone is entitled to their own reaction, just so you don't get the idea I think everyone's circuitry works the same. I certainly do not expect everyone to think the same way I did that day. Why would I?

That's nice, but why fault POTUS for his reaction then?

 

[IamTink]

Originally posted by poohandwendy
Are you SERIOUS? Do you really believe that?

Yes, I really think that maybe, just maybe it possibly could have been avoided. Is it that hard to fathom?

poohandwendy also wrote:

You do realize you are talking about 7 minutes of time when he WAS unsure of what was going on and was trying to wrap up an engagement at the school, right?

You don't need to "wrap up a school "engagement". Just walk out. Someone else can explain.

Not sure what you expect of the POTUS, but I am pretty much adjusted to the fact that we hire human beings to lead the nation, not animatrons. For goodness sakes, we are talking the first 7 minutes of time after he knew of the plane hitting....

The human beings hired are experts. That's why they get the job. His advisors have to be approved. Experts are not animatrons, they're experts in their field and advise the president on everything.

 

[poohandwendy]

1 - If a plane crashed into the world trade center, it would indeed qualify as something the president should get involved with. That is a highly visible symbol of the US, and at the very least there was going to be a huge loss of life. If nothing else, he should have immediately been on the phone with Giuliani and Pataki offering his assistance.

Pahleease, there is no president who would have IMMEDIATELY been on the phone with either of them that quickly. They would have been kept up to date and made a call after they knew what EXACTLY was going on.

The rush of conservatives to make excuses for this president never fails to amaze me

I am a conservative who would feel exactly the same way no matter who was in office that day. Dissecting 7 minutes of time is a waste of time, IMO. The only way I would feel any president should have done more (in seven minutes) is if he would have been on one of the planes. Even then, I still wouldn't have expected him to be superman.

2 - Given the fact that the building had been hit before, it wouldn't take a genius (nor a psychic) to stumble onto the thought of "Hey, I wonder if this was an accident" after the first plane hit. But instead of being in a position to start finding out what was going on, he chose to stay in front of the cameras.

He is ALWAYS in the position to find out what is going on, and he was then. It is the responsibility of the people around him to ensure that. He wasn't cut off from anything by wrapping up his engagement at the school.

But can we not at least agree that sitting there like a bump on a log after the initial attack wasn't exactly the most productive use of that time ?

Um, he wasn't sitting there like a bump on a log, he was wrapping up a previously scheduled engagement. And, no , I don't agree. I wouldn't agree with that line of thinking had it been Gore, Clinton or Kerry at the helm. I think this whole attack on his actions during the first 7 minutes is ridiculous.

 

[Eeyore1954]

Originally posted by IamTink
But, you'll get slammed for it by alot of people here.

Not likely ... most of the regulars are familiar with wvrevy's sentiments. They are so regular and consistent they've become part of the landscape, which makes them that much easier to ignore.

 

[charlie,nj]

Originally posted by charlie,nj


9:12 a: Bush leaves the school and is in touch with NYC officials as well as VP Dick Cheney at the WH.

9:29 am: First reports of casualties indicate that at least 6 (SIX) people are dead and 1000 injured.

 

[ToriLammy]

Originally posted by wvrevy
The rush of conservatives to make excuses for this president never fails to amaze me

Checked my profile - conservative not listed there...hmmm assumptions - gotta love them.

1 - If a plane crashed into the world trade center, it would indeed qualify as something the president should get involved with. That is a highly visible symbol of the US, and at the very least there was going to be a huge loss of life. If nothing else, he should have immediately been on the phone with Giuliani and Pataki offering his assistance.

Why would it have to be Bush? How do you know Cheney wasn't on the phone? Do you have a list of direct responsibilities of the President that the rest of us don't have? "Make phone calls immediately to people in the middle of a crisis so as to prevent them from doing their job immediately" - yeah makes a lot of sense to me. It's like the Mayor of the City calling the fire chief in the middle of a 4 alarm blaze to say "hey if you need more water just call okay?" Talk about a nitpick.

2 - Given the fact that the building had been hit before, it wouldn't take a genius (nor a psychic) to stumble onto the thought of "Hey, I wonder if this was an accident" after the first plane hit. But instead of being in a position to start finding out what was going on, he chose to stay in front of the cameras.

Do you people honestly think that sitting in front of an elementary school classroom was the best place the president could have been in that time ? Would anybody have blamed him for simply saying that something had arisen that demanded his attention and excusing himself ?

I would not have blamed him for excusing himself but I STILL DON'T SEE ANY REASON why he had to immediately leave. I don't think you read the whole thread. If you did you would realize that a lot of us believe his leaving those 7 minutes earlier would not have changed a thing. And you'd also realize that no one here on the other side of the argument has shown how it could have changed a thing.

One of the biggest problems I have with this president, his administration, and those that support it is the complete unwillingness to ever admit to a mistake, regardless of how serious. I don't think anyone is blaming him for the attacks, and I don't even know if there would have been anything he could have done to prevent the second or thirdhad he been in the absolute best position possible. I'm not trying to blame him for anything, really. But can we not at least agree that sitting there like a bump on a log after the initial attack wasn't exactly the most productive use of that time ?

A mistake as measured by whose standards? To a lot of us it was not a mistake. To a lot of us he wasn't sitting like a bump on a log, he didn't have "deer in the headlights" look but then I belive some of us aren't letting politics color our vision or our hindsight.

 

[poohandwendy]

Yes, I really think that maybe, just maybe it possibly could have been avoided. Is it that hard to fathom?

Can you offer at least a theory on how that would have happened? How that 7 minutes could have been utilized to prevent that plane from hitting the Pentagon?

You don't need to "wrap up a school "engagement". Just walk out. Someone else can explain.

Ah, but that's the catch. Had this been nothing but an accident, we would be discussing what an alarmist he was....

The human beings hired are experts. That's why they get the job. His advisors have to be approved. Experts are not animatrons, they're experts in their field and advise the president on everything.

Then why aren't you complaining about what the advisors did in those 7 minutes?

 

[IamTink]

Um, he wasn't sitting there like a bump on a log, he was wrapping up a previously scheduled engagement. And, no , I don't agree. I wouldn't agree with that line of thinking had it been Gore, Clinton or Kerry at the helm. I think this whole attack on his actions during the first 7 minutes is ridiculous.

The Pentagon could have possibly been saved in those crucial seven minutes. He did sit there like a lump on a log. I think it's safe to assume that the Secret Service, police and all other personnel involved in his visit were in place, as a president doesn't go anywhere when it isn't in place. I'm sure that his "engagement" wasn't going to last for very long anyway, so I don't think the local cops or SS were bellying up to any donut bars.

This has been rehashed so much since I started last night. It's a dead horse at this point. I don't see any sense in continuing to argue the same points but with different people.

 

[MJames41]

Originally posted by IamTink
The Pentagon could have possibly been saved in those crucial seven minutes.

But how could it have been saved? I remember a few days (weeks? The entire country was in shock, it's still hard to remember what I was doing for weeks afterwards except watching the news) after when the rumor came that the plane in Pennsylvania may have been shot down. There were people getting excited then that the President have over stepped his authority in shooting it down. Turned out to be nothing but a rumor, although some still believe it to be true. So which is it, should he be blamed for shooting down a plane or for not shooting down one quick enough?

 

[ToriLammy]

Originally posted by IamTink
The Pentagon could have possibly been saved in those crucial seven minutes. I don't see any sense in continuing to argue the same points but with different people.

How could the pentagon been saved? What exactly would Bush have been able to do that those he gave authority to would not have been able to do? Seriously, I'd like to know what you think he could have done that the people working the pentagon could not?

 

[Eeyore1954]

Originally posted by MJames41
But how could it have been saved? I remember a few days (weeks? The entire country was in shock, it's still hard to remember what I was doing for weeks afterwards except watching the news) after when the rumor came that the plane in Pennsylvania may have been shot down. There were people getting excited then that the President have over stepped his authority in shooting it down. Turned out to be nothing but a rumor, although some still believe it to be true. So which is it, should he be blamed for shooting down a plane or for not shooting down one quick enough?

Caught on the horns of a dilemma. What a great choice to make in the time of crisis: act quickly and be called a fool or wait to act and be called a fool. Classic no-win situation, but one that practically every POTUS faces at least once. It's good at those time to remember that one can never please everyone all the time. Unfortunately, in some cases, one can never please some people at all -- no matter what you do.

 

[Miss Jasmine]

Originally posted by IamTink
The Pentagon could have possibly been saved in those crucial seven minutes. He did sit there like a lump on a log. I think it's safe to assume that the Secret Service, police and all other personnel involved in his visit were in place, as a president doesn't go anywhere when it isn't in place. I'm sure that his "engagement" wasn't going to last for very long anyway, so I don't think the local cops or SS were bellying up to any donut bars.

This has been rehashed so much since I started last night. It's a dead horse at this point. I don't see any sense in continuing to argue the same points but with different people.

Oh for Pete's sake.

How could the President have saved the Pentagon? Maybe he could have been like superman and flew around the Earth so fast it went back in time.

He sat there while he was awaiting MORE INFORMATION. How is that so inconceivable? At THAT POINT, I am sure the security of the President came into question, and I am guessing the Secret Service was hashing out a new plan. If indeed something was amiss (and not just an accident), would they really want President Bush hoping on Air Force One and going back to Washington? Probably not. There had to be coordination of the fighter escorts, they had to figure out where they were taking him. How is this SO FREAKIN' hard to understand????? What more could he have done that his aides and advisors weren't doing already??!!??!!

Also I love the donut comment, real original.

 

[kbeverina]

Originally posted by Miss Jasmine
I would like a show of hands here of people who have been DIRECTLY involved with security with regard to a presidential visit, vice presidential visit, first lady visit, or a presidential candidate visit.

I have. That was my first thought when this all started. And certainly Bush is going to know that he's not going to be able to just get up and walk out. He's going to have to wait until security arrangements are made.

Of course, the film is not going to give any indication of that.

 

[kbeverina]

Originally posted by IamTink
Bush shouldn't have been in the room. By the time Bush walked out to his car/helicopter, whatever he rode that day, he could have had an assessment.

The point you keep missing is that Bush was "doing something". He made a decision to stay calm while ending his meeting with the kids in that time period between 9:05am and 9:12am, while his staff was clearly working to get more information and make arrangements for departure. That was an active decision on his part. He felt it was important for the nation and a valuable use of his time to be seen as strong and calm.

So from 9:05am to 9:12am he could have either been waiting off-camera for the phone calls and departure arrangements to be made or sitting with the kids and projecting calm and strength to the rest of the country while phone calls and departure arrangements were being made. He chose the latter because he thought the nation would benefit from it. You may not think that was the best use of his time, but it's wrong to say he was just doing nothing. What he did was an active choice and for the above reason.

 

[kbeverina]

Originally posted by shortbun
"Did you all who saw the film catch that? Was it clear to you that he was not talking about al Qaeda shortly after 9/11 in that clip?"


It was clear to me that his attitude was one of lightheartedness
and flippancy regarding whatever his topic. Throughout the film,
he displayed a cavalier disregard for serious issues being more
concerned about his "drive" or "swing", "did somebody say nice
shot?" He's just a player. I don't know if it's because he knows
someone else is actually making decisions for him or because he
just can't focus sometimes. His mugging and laughter prior to
announcing he had just sent us to war was insulting. It showed
total disregard for what he had just done and was about to say.
Since we have seen no such footage of other presidents when they were about to convey such serious information, should I assume that they all take this approach? Is this just a game to them? I pray to God not.

But that doesn't answer my question.

Did you believe in that clip he was talking about al Qaeda after 9/11?

Can anyone else who saw the film answer that question?

 

[KarenC]

Originally posted by Nancy
If my small child was in that class and he reacted by jumping up out of his chair and announcing what happened those kids would have been scared.

I think the President could have left the classroom without announcing to those kids what had happened. "Excuse me, I have to go" would have sufficed.

I wonder if the President had left to discuss the situation with his aides if small children whose parents were in the Pentagon might still have their moms or dads.

 

[Elwood Blues]

Originally posted by Eeyore1954
. They are so regular and consistent they've become part of the landscape, which makes them that much easier to ignore.

Actually, I'm having a hard time with that. Care to help me out?

 

[kbeverina]

Originally posted by wvrevy
One of the biggest problems I have with this president, his administration, and those that support it is the complete unwillingness to ever admit to a mistake, regardless of how serious.

Okay, I wasn't going to press it, but when you make observations like this, I have to ask--did you need me to bump the other Michael Moore thread up? I had posted to you and didn't receive a response. Perhaps you missed it, the threads get buried so quickly on the CB. I would really like to hear your response.

 

[Elwood Blues]

Originally posted by ToriLammy
It's like the Mayor of the City calling the fire chief in the middle of a 4 alarm blaze to say "hey if you need more water just call okay?" Talk about a nitpick.

No, it would be more like the Mayor calling the Fire Chief telling him it was ok to use the water he already had.