A comment about moore's bad editing in F 9/11

[shortbun]

I'm so accustomed to getting up at 4am that I still do it,
serf the net for a while then go back to sleep til 10 if I'm
lucky. Ds seems to have had no difficulty changing his body
clock! lol!
g'night.

 

[AirForceRocks]

Originally posted by IamTink
Even if it were an "accident" as first thought, don't you think that our CIC should have been learning more about an "accident" in our most populous city instead of not learning more at the time?

I think think the President going into the classroom after the first plane would have been quetioned even if it had turned out to be an accident because of the location. It's not just our most populous city, it's one of the economical powers in the world. There's alot at stake there. Bush messed up, badly.

People that are in favor of Bush are also doing the Monday morning quarterback thing, only in his favor, but it's the same thing.

No, given that it was assumed to be an accident, I don't think the CIC should have been learning more. Prior to 9/11, an accidental plane crash was not a national emergency demanding the immediate attention of the POTUS, whether it was in NYC or not.

And I don't agree that had it been an accident people would have questioned him going into the classroom. I think that most reasonable people understand that not everything that happens demands the President's immediate personal attention. I don't see that as Monday morning quarterback in the President's favor, I see it as judging the situation based on what we knew at that moment, rather than what we know almost 3 years later.

 

[Elwood Blues]

Originally posted by ThreeCircles
No one is saying he should have jumped from his chair and ran screaming from the room.

I haven't finished the whole thread yet so I don't know if anyone has actually said that. But knowing how you feel about "w", it would probably make you so happy if he did go running screaming from the room that you'd most likely have an "accident" from laughing so hard.

 

[Elwood Blues]

Originally posted by poohandwendy
Dissecting 7 minutes of time that we all have to admit was nothing short of completely SHOCKING to every American...even those who actually witnessed it.

Apparently it wasn't very shocking to Moore who said (I can't find the quote) something along the lines that he didn't think that the impact of 3000 people killed in the WTC attack was a big deal because you are 3 times more likely to be killed by lightning than a terrorist attack.

He also said...

"Moore went into a rant about how the passengers on the Sept. 11 planes were scaredy cats because they were mostly white," Alibhai-Brown writes. "If the passengers had included black men, he claimed, those killers, with their puny bodies and unimpressive small knives, would have been crushed by the dudes, who as we all know take no disrespect from anybody."

and...

Although everyone involved in the film opposed the war in Iraq, Mr. Moore said, "That's no reason why we shouldn't make some money off it. That's the great thing about America. You can hate it, and still cash in."

Why anyone would give MM any of their hard earned cash for any of his trash is beyond me.

Personally, I'd rather set my $10 on fire instead of giving it to him.

 

[Nancy]

Shortbun...I respect your opinion and I think it's great that you have an emergency plan in place for your child before 9/11 happened. That morning I had just dropped off DD#3 and came home turned on the TV and watched the events unfold. When the first plane hit, the media was just as confused as everyone else. they did not immediately know it was a commercial plane...I remember them speculating about what type of plane it was. As they started to get eyewitness reports, before the second plane hit they statred to speculate about it being a commercial plane. Even after #2 hit I still did not think i needed to get my kids out of school....as a matter of fact I never did. I live in Ny state and it never occured to me right away that we were under attack. After the first tower fell I did have a thought about picking the kids up but I was such a wreck not knowing where 3 members of my family were that I decided to leave them there. DD#3 never even knew what happened until she got home. By then I knew all family was safe (or as safe as they could be living in Manhatten).

Now of course, I do have a plan in place. My bosses already know that if I am at work and anything happens I am out the door to get my kids. 9/11 was a horrendous day. Even knowing what I know now about reports the President had before hand I think he did the right thing. I don't think he had a scared look on his face, rather it was shock and then deep thought.

I just hope to God that we never have to go through another day like that, no matter who is in office.

 

[IamTink]

N.Bailey wrote:

For someone who freely admits, they had no clue of anything, including what happened on Clinton's watch, you really seem to be able to tell everyone else how they should have acted! Why weren't you and everyone else who is whining on this thread not so PO'd about the president sitting in the classroom for the past 2 1/2 years? You needed Michael Moore to tell you how to feel, that's why! Cause I certainly NEVER read or heard one person complain about this in the almost 3 years since this tragedy happened. If you didn't know about it, then you've been living in a box, now all of the sudden, you're the expert here? Gimmie a break!

I never said I didn't "have a clue". I also do not claim to be an "expert." Those are the people that are actually running the show. We are but people on the sidelines, as the taxpayers are, speaking about Michael Moores edited/docudrama movie, with his own personal agenda. I must have been in a box because I never knew he hesitated for that long to make a decision. Oh, don't forget the scared look in his face/eyes. Like a deer stuck in the headlights of a car. FROZEN. Not the way we want to know our fearless leader is. I'm stating my opinion as to how he should have acted. I'm not telling anyone else here how they should have acted. They are not the leader of the most powerful free nation on earth.

And why do so many people have their panties in a knot regarding Bush leaving a class w/kids? Big deal, so he has to leave a room he shouldn't have gone into. Read my reasons why in previous posts.

Now, N. Bailey, do YOU have a personal problem w/me? It seems to be that you do. Just wondering,

 

[IamTink]

AirForceRocks wrote:

No, given that it was assumed to be an accident, I don't think the CIC should have been learning more. Prior to 9/11, an accidental plane crash was not a national emergency demanding the immediate attention of the POTUS, whether it was in NYC or not.

You have that right to believe that. I personally would expect my president to be immediately concerned w/anything hitting NYC. I do expect our CIC to be learning more. That's his job.

You'll have to explain your POTUS, as I don't know what the initials stand for.

Nancy wrote:

When the first plane hit, the media was just as confused as everyone else. they did not immediately know it was a commercial plane...I remember them speculating about what type of plane it was. As they started to get eyewitness reports, before the second plane hit they statred to speculate about it being a commercial plane.

Then we think differently. I knew something was wrong right away. I was thinking about the garage bombing & that had been a terrorist attack on our soil. I didn't know if this was, but I smelled trouble. I just personally feel that Bush should have done something instead of just sit there.

Nancy also wrote:

Even knowing what I know now about reports the President had before hand I think he did the right thing. I don't think he had a scared look on his face, rather it was shock and then deep thought.

I just hope to God that we never have to go through another day like that, no matter who is in office.

You're entitled to your opiniion but, I thought he looked scared & very unsure of himself in the pictures I saw. I too hope that we never have to go through that again.

Elwood Blues wrote:

Apparently it wasn't very shocking to Moore who said (I can't find the quote) something along the lines that he didn't think that the impact of 3000 people killed in the WTC attack was a big deal because you are 3 times more likely to be killed by lightning than a terrorist attack.

He also said...

"Moore went into a rant about how the passengers on the Sept. 11 planes were scaredy cats because they were mostly white," Alibhai-Brown writes. "If the passengers had included black men, he claimed, those killers, with their puny bodies and unimpressive small knives, would have been crushed by the dudes, who as we all know take no disrespect from anybody."

and...

Although everyone involved in the film opposed the war in Iraq, Mr. Moore said, "That's no reason why we shouldn't make some money off it. That's the great thing about America. You can hate it, and still cash in."

Why anyone would give MM any of their hard earned cash for any of his trash is beyond me.

Personally, I'd rather set my $10 on fire instead of giving it to him.

I agree. Moore always attempts to make caucasians out to be cowards, afraid of everything not caucasian. I don't know who Alibhai-Brown is.

 

[wvrevy]

I'm on a mailing list of daily political cartoons, and given the reaction of so many here to Moore's movie, despite their not having actually seen it, I thought this was kinda funny when I opened it this morning

 

[Elwood Blues]

Originally posted by IamTink
[B

Nobody knew that morning they were dealing w/911. As a CIC he should have been in immediate contact w/Rumsfeld, our Secretary of Defense, the speaker of the house, the vice-president. It's his job and he simply should have known enough to do something. [/B]

Ah, there's the problem. He did do something. But obviously it wasn't the something you had in mind. Whatever that is.

And since we have no idea what Card really said to Bush, I'll throw out a little speculation of my own.

I think Card could have said something (there's that something again) along the lines of "Both WTC towers were hit by commercial airliners, I"ve already put in a calsl the the cabinet members and as soon as they can, they will give you an assesment of what has happened so it might be wise to sit tight for a few minutes so as not to cause a panic as we are working to get you out of here ASAP".

Sounds good to me.

 

[Eeyore1954]

Originally posted by IamTink
I knew something was wrong right away. I was thinking about the garage bombing & that had been a terrorist attack on our soil. I didn't know if this was, but I smelled trouble. I just personally feel that Bush should have done something instead of just sit there.

Gee, then it's really too bad we didn't elect YOU as POTUS instead of Mr. Bush. I'm sure we'd be in so much better shape today given your insight, apparent psychic abilities and thorough action plan.

(BTW, POTUS = President Of The United States)

 

[AirForceRocks]

You'll have to explain your POTUS, as I don't know what the initials stand for.

Sorry about that, I sometimes forget that not everyone lives and breathes acronyms .

POTUS = President of the United States.

That's his job.

In your opinion, perhaps, but I disagree. I don't believe that it the job or responsibility of the POTUS to insert himself into every single situation that occurs in the US. While an accidental crash in NYC would indeed have been a crisis for the city and perhaps for the state, it certainly wouldn't have been a national crisis.

 

[jrydberg]

The bipartisan 9/11 commission seemed satisified that Bush reacted appropriately given the circumstances. Really, I think those who criticize President Bush over this damage their own credibility. If President Bush sneezed, I'm sure there'd be a critique of it.

There's plenty of legitimate reason to criticize him. This is not one.

 

[wvrevy]

The rush of conservatives to make excuses for this president never fails to amaze me

1 - If a plane crashed into the world trade center, it would indeed qualify as something the president should get involved with. That is a highly visible symbol of the US, and at the very least there was going to be a huge loss of life. If nothing else, he should have immediately been on the phone with Giuliani and Pataki offering his assistance.

2 - Given the fact that the building had been hit before, it wouldn't take a genius (nor a psychic) to stumble onto the thought of "Hey, I wonder if this was an accident" after the first plane hit. But instead of being in a position to start finding out what was going on, he chose to stay in front of the cameras.

Do you people honestly think that sitting in front of an elementary school classroom was the best place the president could have been in that time ? Would anybody have blamed him for simply saying that something had arisen that demanded his attention and excusing himself ?

One of the biggest problems I have with this president, his administration, and those that support it is the complete unwillingness to ever admit to a mistake, regardless of how serious. I don't think anyone is blaming him for the attacks, and I don't even know if there would have been anything he could have done to prevent the second or thirdhad he been in the absolute best position possible. I'm not trying to blame him for anything, really. But can we not at least agree that sitting there like a bump on a log after the initial attack wasn't exactly the most productive use of that time ?

 

[IamTink]

Originally posted by Eeyore1954
Gee, then it's really too bad we didn't elect YOU as POTUS instead of Mr. Bush. I'm sure we'd be in so much better shape today given your insight, apparent psychic abilities and thorough action plan.

(BTW, POTUS = President Of The United States)

I thought I made it very clear that I'm not any type of expert, as are none of us here. Thanks for the POTUS explanation. I don't know how old you (Eeyore1954) were when the garage explosion hit, if 1954 after Eeyore is your year of birth, then I'm surprised that it didn't occur to you. Having said that I also have to say that everyone is entitled to their own reaction, just so you don't get the idea I think everyone's circuitry works the same. I certainly do not expect everyone to think the same way I did that day. Why would I?

Elwood Blues wrote:

Ah, there's the problem. He did do something. But obviously it wasn't the something you had in mind. Whatever that is.

You've got that right.

Elwood Blues wrote:

And since we have no idea what Card really said to Bush, I'll throw out a little speculation of my own.

I think Card could have said something (there's that something again) along the lines of "Both WTC towers were hit by commercial airliners, I"ve already put in a calsl the the cabinet members and as soon as they can, they will give you an assesment of what has happened so it might be wise to sit tight for a few minutes so as not to cause a panic as we are working to get you out of here ASAP".

Sounds good to me.

Doesn't sound good enough for me.

And what good is it for you to speculate about what you guess Card said to the president? Bush shouldn't have been in the room. By the time Bush walked out to his car/helicopter, whatever he rode that day, he could have had an assessment. Critical time could have been saved. Maybe, just maybe the Pentagon wouldn't have been hit.

wbrevy, good cartoon.

 

[poohandwendy]

You're entitled to your opiniion but, I thought he looked scared & very unsure of himself in the pictures I saw.

You do realize you are talking about 7 minutes of time when he WAS unsure of what was going on and was trying to wrap up an engagement at the school, right?

Not sure what you expect of the POTUS, but I am pretty much adjusted to the fact that we hire human beings to lead the nation, not animatrons. For goodness sakes, we are talking the first 7 minutes of time after he knew of the plane hitting....

Talk about making a mountain out of a molehill...

 

[poohandwendy]

Maybe, just maybe the Pentagon wouldn't have been hit.

Are you SERIOUS? Do you really believe that?

 

[jrydberg]

wvrevy, I'll blame President Bush for plenty of mistakes he's made (spending way too much money, lack of contingency planning for post-war Iraq just to name a couple biggies). I just find it amazing that people want to blame him for everything he does. A commission of very reasonable public officials from both sides of the political spectrum determined after considerable thought and consultation with President Bush that he acted appropriately.

As I said before, surely he did a pretty good job if the big complaint on that day is that he stayed in the classroom for a few minutes.

 

[IamTink]

Originally posted by wvrevy
The rush of conservatives to make excuses for this president never fails to amaze me

1 - If a plane crashed into the world trade center, it would indeed qualify as something the president should get involved with. That is a highly visible symbol of the US, and at the very least there was going to be a huge loss of life. If nothing else, he should have immediately been on the phone with Giuliani and Pataki offering his assistance.

2 - Given the fact that the building had been hit before, it wouldn't take a genius (nor a psychic) to stumble onto the thought of "Hey, I wonder if this was an accident" after the first plane hit. But instead of being in a position to start finding out what was going on, he chose to stay in front of the cameras.

Do you people honestly think that sitting in front of an elementary school classroom was the best place the president could have been in that time ? Would anybody have blamed him for simply saying that something had arisen that demanded his attention and excusing himself ?

One of the biggest problems I have with this president, his administration, and those that support it is the complete unwillingness to ever admit to a mistake, regardless of how serious. I don't think anyone is blaming him for the attacks, and I don't even know if there would have been anything he could have done to prevent the second or thirdhad he been in the absolute best position possible. I'm not trying to blame him for anything, really. But can we not at least agree that sitting there like a bump on a log after the initial attack wasn't exactly the most productive use of that time ?

Thank-you. My sentiments exactly. But, you'll get slammed for it by alot of people here.

 

[AirForceRocks]

By the time Bush walked out to his car/helicopter, whatever he rode that day, he could have had an assessment.

He did have an assessment and briefing prior to walking out to his car, so I'm not sure what the point is here.

Critical time could have been saved.

I don't see how. You seem to believe that no one in the government moves unless the President tells them to, and that simply isn't true.

 

[Miss Jasmine]

I would like a show of hands here of people who have been DIRECTLY involved with security with regard to a presidential visit, vice presidential visit, first lady visit, or a presidential candidate visit. Let's see them, hold them up high... okay I am guessing MAYBE a couple people here. I am one of those people. Preperations for the visit begin WEEKS in advance, coordination takes place between local police (in our case two agencies), state police (in this case FDLE), and then the Feds. It is literally a three ring circus. There is no way, they could have just WISKED him out of that building (unless his life was in immediate danger, then yes you go to plan B). You would not believe the timing and the coordination. In this case, there was no apparent immediate threat to the POTUS, the situation was still unknown, and what good would it have been to move the President OUT OF a controlled situation into who knows what at that point.

He has the staff he has because he trusts them, has faith that they can handle delegated duties.

I remember that morning having NO IDEA what was really going on. There were conflicting reports of whether it was indeed a commercial aircraft or a private aircraft. There was conflicting information on the size of the aircraft. There was a lot of misinformation going around that morning. And yes I did not have the info the President did, but based on the hearings even the FAA had no clue what was going on. Who do you think the President is waiting to get information from?