75 mins for HM!?!?!? Time to fire current Disney parks MGMT

[ArwenMarie]

If you think that then you do not know much about DLR locals. Comparing them in mindset or quantity to Florida locals is highly misleading.

How are they so different?

 

[mom2rtk]

Actually I think the greatest obstacle in adding FP+ at DLR is the limited space there. Most attractions do not have FP already, so no FP line. And not a lot of room to add a second return line. And while it is annoying to have FP return lines snake out into the park at WDW, it could be a traffic stopper at DLR.

 

[HydroGuy]

I chatted with a fair number of locals while in lines on our DLR trip last fall. If anything they found the idea of FP+ silly and questioned why anyone would care about reserving rides. It's just a totally different mindset from the occasional traveler. What they miss this time, they will catch next time. They've done it all countless times before.

I think the biggest obstacle at DLR would just be the sheer number of AP holders who could book on the off chance they "might" go to the parks on a given day. Whatever the fallout is at WDW, it will happen in spades at DLR.

I agree. I cannot see how the demographics there with a million AP holders and millions more local day trippers and a rabid fan base that I have never see the likes of at WDW would ever tolerate it.

And yet the rumblings are that Disney plans to do it anyways...

 

[mom2rtk]

I agree. I cannot see how the demographics there with a million AP holders and millions more local day trippers and a rabid fan base that I have never see the likes of at WDW would ever tolerate it.

And yet the rumblings are that Disney plans to do it anyways...

Yeah. Watching the rollout at WDW has convinced me that this is one big steamroller that might not be able to stop.

 

[HydroGuy]

If you think that then you do not know much about DLR locals. Comparing them in mindset or quantity to Florida locals is highly misleading.

How are they so different?

Uh, yes.

Quantity

- Only 15% of WDW visitors are locals. At DLR it is something like 70%.

- A million AP holders at DLR. I do not know what it is at WDW but understand it is far smaller.

Mindset

The loyalty and rabid interest in the parks at DLR is unlike anything I have ever seen at WDW. If you think "DLR fans must be something like WDW fans" then you do not understand DLR fans. Just to get an idea, take everything you see on this forum and multiply it by 10. Or 100. WDW fan loyalty and mindset is not a good guide to understanding DLR fan loyalty and mindset.

And for the record, the DIS DLR forum is IMO the best on the Internet for guiding DLR non-locals and WDW vets for DLR. But it does not reflect the rabid loyalty of the DLR locals. For that you would have to visit other DLR forums. Which I have over the last 10 years. And, as I said, it will make this forum look like child's play.

 

[flicx]

From what I understand that is in fact what happened. The CL expansion was part of a $1.2 billion expansion at DLR that drove attendance way up and brought in increased income. MDE/FP+ cost something similar and it is starting to look like it will have a much lower ROI. That is why many Disney projects at parks have been put on hold.

Some DLR fans are upset that the MDE/FP+ experience and low ROI at WDW is forcing Disney to delay projects at DLR.

For example see:

"My Magic BUST: How Problems With MyMagic+ Could Effect Other Projects"
http://micechat.com/49401-my-magic-plus-failure/

Thanks for the link to the article My magic bust! Seems that heads are truly gonna roll!!! As many of us had predicted on here this whole thing keeps looking more and more like a failure everyday. Apparently Mr. Iger is getting that vibe now too. It is still utterly amazing to me that with the success of the expansions at DLR that Disney execs wouldn't have just done the same thing at Disney World.

 

[morethananyonex]

You are correct across the board. But there have been rumblings it is coming to DLR. If it never comes to DLR that would make a lot of folks very happy. Messing up something that is working so well and profitably (the whole Disneyland Resort is what I am referring to) would really hurt Disney. For the price of MM+/MDE WDW could have built an entire CarsLand at WDW plus much more.

And as someone who has not been to DLR since the 90s but visits WDW every few years, that last statement is so depressing.

Once DS is tall enough to ride RSR, we will definitely be making the trip to DLR again. Looking forward to it already!

 

[redsbe]

Thanks for the link to the article My magic bust! Seems that heads are truly gonna roll!!! As many of us had predicted on here this whole thing keeps looking more and more like a failure everyday. Apparently Mr. Iger is getting that vibe now too. It is still utterly amazing to me that with the success of the expansions at DLR that Disney execs wouldn't have just done the same thing at Disney World.

Not sure want DL fans are looking for but Carsland was a recent huge investment and expansion, and WDW had a similar scale renovation with the new Fantasyland. Yes, both parks need additional updates and additions that will come with time and money and from the view solely of a visitor adding more attractions would have been a better investiment.

MBs and FP+ are an investment for the future and tied to overall visitor experiences including resorts, booking meals, attracting new visitors, and keeping visitors on site spending money. And as with any major new technology it is simply too soon to know whether it is successful or not, as it will take at least a year of data on revenues, park visitors and surveys, besides the investment is to big to walk away from anytime soon, more likely to expect continued modifications.

 

[MickeyMinnieMom]

Not sure want DL fans are looking for but Carsland was a recent huge investment and expansion, and WDW had a similar scale renovation with the new Fantasyland. Yes, both parks need additional updates and additions that will come with time and money and from the view solely of a visitor adding more attractions would have been a better investiment.

MBs and FP+ are an investment for the future and tied to overall visitor experiences including resorts, booking meals, attracting new visitors, and keeping visitors on site spending money. And as with any major new technology it is simply too soon to know whether it is successful or not, as it will take at least a year of data on revenues, park visitors and surveys, besides the investment is to big to walk away from anytime soon, more likely to expect continued modifications.

Nonsense!! We can already draw conclusions even though it's not fully rolled out!!!


ITA, btw.

 

[redsbe]

And referring to the OP, here we are today a Saturday at end of March (3/29) at 1130am and SB line for HM is 15 minutes, while all other major MK rides are 30 min or less.

So again where is the failure?

At WDW the rule is as it has been for many years: if you visit during peak crowds (with park days of 8+) there are going to be long lines especially as you move through the day.

If anything MBs and FP+ are making the 9 park days even worse, but they were already pretty bad to start with.

 

[HydroGuy]

Nonsense!! We can already draw conclusions even though it's not fully rolled out!!!

Actually there are some conclusions that can be drawn.

- It is taking longer to implement than expected

- It is not yet producing enough income to offset the costs - apparently impacting other expenditures in the company at other locations

Whether it ever pays for itself remains to be seen. It might.

I agree that saying at this point it is a failure is premature.

Some companies do damage their brands permanently or for many years. Disney has done this before. When they built the Disney California Adventure park next to DL it was a disaster. An embarrassment for the company. No one would go. The word of mouth by the local base in SoCal was terrible.

Finally Disney called a spade a spade (after Iger took over - and Iger was the one who called it a spade) and decided in 2007 to invest over a billion dollars to essentially refurb the entire park. Rides were torn down. New ones built. A number of rides were completely rethemed. The entire entrance was closed for almost a year while they built a new entrance. Now they finally seem to have gotten it right and are attracting people there. But along the way a lot of damage was done.

 

[clsteve]

You are correct across the board. But there have been rumblings it is coming to DLR. If it never comes to DLR that would make a lot of folks very happy. Messing up something that is working so well and profitably (the whole Disneyland Resort is what I am referring to) would really hurt Disney.

For the price of MM+/MDE WDW could have built an entire CarsLand at WDW plus much more.

So very true.

It will be tough for them to not "eventually" do something at DL. They've really sold this as the great new Theme Park Management Strategy to analysts and the Board. There would be a lot of tough questions as to why it won't work in all the Parks in the inventory.

Now, could it be scaled down to just MDE, MB's and some lighter form of FP+? Hopefully, they'll learn a lot from what they're doing now....

 

[ArwenMarie]

Uh, yes.

Quantity

- Only 15% of WDW visitors are locals. At DLR it is something like 70%.

- A million AP holders at DLR. I do not know what it is at WDW but understand it is far smaller.

Mindset

The loyalty and rabid interest in the parks at DLR is unlike anything I have ever seen at WDW. If you think "DLR fans must be something like WDW fans" then you do not understand DLR fans. Just to get an idea, take everything you see on this forum and multiply it by 10. Or 100. WDW fan loyalty and mindset is not a good guide to understanding DLR fan loyalty and mindset.

And for the record, the DIS DLR forum is IMO the best on the Internet for guiding DLR non-locals and WDW vets for DLR. But it does not reflect the rabid loyalty of the DLR locals. For that you would have to visit other DLR forums. Which I have over the last 10 years. And, as I said, it will make this forum look like child's play.

Interesting. I knew the numbers were different but not the mindset.

I guess I'm still wondering why there would be such an outrage if they did put it in out there. The locals/frequent visitors in Orlando seem to like it, or at least be meh about it because they know they can just come back. I can see that attitude in many local bloggers' attitudes actually, like why is everyone THIS upset?

 

[bjakmom]

And referring to the OP, here we are today a Saturday at end of March (3/29) at 1130am and SB line for HM is 15 minutes, while all other major MK rides are 30 min or less.

So again where is the failure?

At WDW the rule is as it has been for many years: if you visit during peak crowds (with park days of 8+) there are going to be long lines especially as you move through the day.

If anything MBs and FP+ are making the 9 park days even worse, but they were already pretty bad to start with.

I don't think today is a good/fair example of what is going on with the system - there is a HUGE storm system heading towards Orlando and the whole area is under Tornado Watch warnings - probably a morning where most guests chose to stay at the resort and wait and see what the weather does. There are other threads already today about the severe weather. Just sayin.

 

[flicx]

MBs and FP+ are an investment for the future and tied to overall visitor experiences including resorts, booking meals, attracting new visitors, and keeping visitors on site spending money. And as with any major new technology it is simply too soon to know whether it is successful or not, as it will take at least a year of data on revenues, park visitors and surveys, besides the investment is to big to walk away from anytime soon, more likely to expect continued modifications.

Sure they are gonna need modifications, the system is flawed. A nearly 2 billion dollar system that has rolled out and has more bugs in it than a bugs life! This system does very little for the customer. An expenditure on rides themselves was the smart money. If this system is so great why all the hubbub with executive meetings and stopping other expansions/expenditures? Was this an intended result? I highly doubt it! Of course Disney won't admit defeat even if the system is a dud.

 

[bledsoedoc]

First, we were at MK 2 years ago in March and lines were 3+ hours long for many attractions and this was well before fp+. The lower tiers were around 60-75 minutes. All attibuted to the sheer number of people there. We will never do springbreak again.

Secondly, there are many of us hardcore fans that like fp+ and mde. We weren't ever people who used more than 2 or 3 fp a day. We just are too relaxed to run around like chickens with our heads cut off. Now we can schedule 3, spread them out the parks in our normal touring schedule and it saves us time. DH no longer has to run to get them. He no longer carries my ap in order to pick up our fp so I can shop with my ap discount. I cant count how many times I shopped without my ap discount because dh had my ap running to get fp. Now life is smooth during our trips. Wonderful 16 days without fp+ glitches last November and December.

As others have stated, fp lines appear long outside the mickey heads but once inside it is a quick jump, skip or hop to the ride. In our experience.

Love the rfid key. Makes life so much easier coming home at night after being in the parks all day.

 

[HydroGuy]

Interesting. I knew the numbers were different but not the mindset.

I guess I'm still wondering why there would be such an outrage if they did put it in out there. The locals/frequent visitors in Orlando seem to like it, or at least be meh about it because they know they can just come back. I can see that attitude in many local bloggers' attitudes actually, like why is everyone THIS upset?

You misunderstand. I am not saying that DLR fans will be outraged. I am saying that the way MDE/FP+ works would not fit the way the average DLR guest visits. Unlike WDW most people at DLR are not on vacation. They are on a fun day like going to the beach or something. The way they visit DLR is much more relaxed. Last minute. The relaxed "just chill, dude" California stereotype has some validity. The last thing they are going to want to do is plan rides ahead of time.

You can see this by how (un)popular ADRs are there. WDW vets visiting DLR are salivating like Pavlov's dogs to make ADRs 180 days in advance. You can't. So they jump up and down hysterically (metaphorically, on the DIS forum) until the 60 day mark when you can make ADRs. And then they feel so relieved to make the ADRs at that point.

But the reality is that most folks at DLR do not make dining reservations at all. So you can wait for almost anything until the week before and still get a prime dining time. Many times the day before.

The idea of taking this mentality at DLR and adding FP+ just seems like a recipe for - well - a misapplication of technology.

DLR fans there might be outraged I suppose. They might be apathetic about it. Until they realize they are being squeezed out of being able to go on headliner and secondary rides because of FP+. Not sure what would happen at that point.

A better idea there would be to give AP holders something like 30 FPs per year that they could use whenever. Or maybe 5-6 FPs per month?

The way that MDE/FP+ is being implemented at WDW just will not work at DLR for most people. If they try to force it there I have no idea what will happen. If there is a backlash it will be much larger than what we see here on DIS WDW. And it will sour California locals as word of mouth will spread like wildfire there.

 

[MolonLabe]

Maybe I'm weird (totally possible ), but if.someone chooses not to go to wdw after reading a message board, that's their issue. If I really, truly want to go some place, then negative posts on a fan lovers message board aren't going to stop me . But then, I don't put much stock in movie or restaurant reviews either

By the local town chow-hound or from a place like Trip Advisor? I'm to the point now where I don't try any place new without checking with Trip Advisor first. I balance out the ratings and peoples comments to get an idea at least.

I don't know how many people visit a message board prior to hitting WDW, I know I never did until I had some very specific questions prior to our trip 3 years ago and I stumbled upon Disboards and two other sites trying to find the answers.

I think that's forgetting that those of us who are "WDW nuts" also live outside of the disboards.

Anyone I know or work with planning a trip to WDW consults me like I'm some sort of oracle when it comes to WDW and Florida (being a Floridian in the midwest has that effect by itself though).

As everyone says "You're always at WDW"... maybe not so much any more but I'm down for at least 2 weeks a year at this point. Would have been more but having a bunch of kids, getting a new house and such tend to drop discretionary vacation funds.

You think my recent decision to cancel a Disney trip entirely at 50 days out doesn't send up huge red flags to my friends and colleagues? " 'Mr Disney' thinks the new system sucks so bad he's cancelling one of his yearly 'must do 'trips'?

Nothing happens in a vacuum.

 

[DebbieB]

I saw on another thread that MK had a capacity close on Wednesday. Not sure what stage but it was definitely high crowds contributing this week.

 

[WillAustin]

I think that's forgetting that those of us who are "WDW nuts" also live outside of the disboards.

Anyone I know or work with planning a trip to WDW consults me like I'm some sort of oracle when it comes to WDW and Florida (being a Floridian in the midwest has that effect by itself though).

As everyone says "You're always at WDW"... maybe not so much any more but I'm down for at least 2 weeks a year at this point. Would have been more but having a bunch of kids, getting a new house and such tend to drop discretionary vacation funds.

You think my recent decision to cancel a Disney trip entirely at 50 days out doesn't send up huge red flags to my friends and colleagues? " 'Mr Disney' thinks the new system sucks so bad he's cancelling one of his yearly 'must do 'trips'?

Yes, I think this is happening quite a bit. Most of us loyal WDW customers would be what marketing people consider "influencers" that have a huge effect on how others decide on things.