13 Year old gir declared brain dead has now officially died

[Callie]

I have two sinus surgeries, as well as having my septum I believe it is called (the main part of the nose) straightened... there was blood coming out for a week, it was normal. If I had tried to suction it, it would have likely tore stitches, and stopped the clots that had formed.
Really hoping this poor girls family didn't over-react from possibly normal blood coming up, and start suctioning right away.

 

[JanaDee]

Looking at it from the mother's point of view is hard to see compassion coming from the hospital. There are conflicting reports on whether the hospital will let another doctor come in to perform the necessary procedures to move her.
The mother has also come out and said the workers at the hospital call her daughter "the body".

So first you have the daughter bleeding profusely while in recovery while nobody seemed to care. Then you have the hospital going back and forth with what they are willing to let the family do as far as transferring her AND being cruel by calling her "the body".

You seem to forget we are only hearing from one side ~ the family who can't seem to grasp the reality of the situation.

Because Jahi has been declared dead, no doctor will touch her. Wait, let me rephrase that ~ no ethical doctor will do any type of procedure on her.

 

[sunshinehighway]

You seem to forget we are only hearing from one side ~ the family who can't seem to grasp the reality of the situation.

Because Jahi has been declared dead, no doctor will touch her. Wait, let me rephrase that ~ no ethical doctor will do any type of procedure on her.

I'm not forgetting anything. I clearly said looking at it from the mother's point of view.

Look at it from her side and is easier to understand why the family isn't grasping the situation.

First the little girl they loved is dead. The people telling them she is dead are the people the family thinks is responsible and now the feel they are being jerked around by those people. They must have a deep distrust of anything anyone from that hospital has to say.

IF it is true that she is being referred to as "the body", especially in earshot of her family, it's absolutely disgusting.

 

[Lynne M]

Looking at it from the mother's point of view is hard to see compassion coming from the hospital. There are conflicting reports on whether the hospital will let another doctor come in to perform the necessary procedures to move her.
The mother has also come out and said the workers at the hospital call her daughter "the body".

So first you have the daughter bleeding profusely while in recovery while nobody seemed to care. Then you have the hospital going back and forth with what they are willing to let the family do as far as transferring her AND being cruel by calling her "the body".

I have nothing but sympathy for this poor woman, I'll never be able to imagine the agony she must be in. And she's got people around her telling her what she wants to hear (lawyer, facility in LI, shameless 'doctor'), so they can line their pockets and promote their various agendas through this tragedy.

To her, those people seem compassionate because they're giving her (false) hope. I'm sure the nursing and medical staff is being kind, but they're not telling her what she wants to hear and feeding her delusions. They're telling her the hard, painful truth, and I'm sure that seems terribly mean and uncaring to her.

 

[JanaDee]

I have nothing but sympathy for this poor woman, I'll never be able to imagine the agony she must be in. And she's got people around her telling her what she wants to hear (lawyer, facility in LI, shameless 'doctor'), so they can line their pockets and promote their various agendas through this tragedy.

To her, those people seem compassionate because they're giving her (false) hope. I'm sure the nursing and medical staff is being kind, but they're not telling her what she wants to hear and feeding her delusions. They're telling her the hard, painful truth, and I'm sure that seems terribly mean and uncaring to her.

Exactly!

 

[MinnieLovesMickey12]

LOL @ CRAP machine. Unless there is a new sleep apnea machine out called a CRAP machine, the two machines used for sleep apnea are called C P A P or B I P A P cpap and bipap. Not CRAP. But it is funny seeing someone type crap over and over.

And while sleep apnea may contribute to obesity, usually the sleep apnea STARTS because of obesity. I have known many ppl in my life, my dad and myself two of them, that had sleep apnea and once the weight was lost the apnea cleared up.

Now my dad gained the weight back and is back on his bipap machine.

It was recommended that I have this surgery that she had. In my case they were also going to remove part of the soft palette at the back of the roof of your mouth. The reason I chose not to have the surgery is because I read up on all the possible side effects of the surgery and some of the side effects were that when you drink something it can back up into your sinuses and choke you AFTER the surgery. The side effects were too much for me to risk having the surgery. I lost the weight and the problem was solved.

The fact that the mom said that the daughter has been losing weight but that she "still looks good" leads me to believe she encouraged her daughter's overeating and thought she looked good obese.

 

[kacaju]

So this is going to sound dramatic and really TMI disgusting but here goes. I could have almost been that poor girl 10 years ago. I had my tonsils out at age 25. I guess as a fat girl, I had fat tonsils.

I wasn't having sleeping issues but severe constant sinus problems as well as keeping strep all the time. In addition to having my tonsils out, I was also having my nose worked on due to a deviated septum.

I did not want to have this surgery at all and just kept having horrible feelings about it but was constantly reassured that millions of people have this done and I can as well. I went to an outpatient surgery center and my first clue that this was not going to go well was the nurses not getting the IV to stay. I went into surgery with the IV finally sticking out of my shoulder and that was after attempts in my hands, arms and feet/ankles.

I woke up from surgery in the hospital with a breathing tube. Apparently I had quite the asthma attack and breathing problems from the nose surgery. I had small bit of blood still coming from nose and that was 10 hours later.

I went home 3 days later and fast forward to day 7 post surgery. I was home alone and stood up to go get something to drink and *pop pop pop* my stitches busted open right in my kitchen. I started gurgling blood just like in the scary movies when someone is dying. Luckily my neighbor was home and drove me to the hospital. In the 15 minutes it took to get to the hospital, I was coughing up big amounts of blood into a mixing bowl of all things. I had to pull clots out because I thought I was choking. (sorry about TMI) I was going back into surgery within the hour of my stitches popping and also had to have two units of blood while in surgery due to loss.

So yes, I can see how routine surgery that we encourage 3 year old children to have can go crazy wrong. I don't think it had anything to do with the weight but complete mismanagement of the medical care she received.

((HUGS)) scary!!

 

[Pea-n-Me]

Looking at it from the mother's point of view is hard to see compassion coming from the hospital. There are conflicting reports on whether the hospital will let another doctor come in to perform the necessary procedures to move her.
The mother has also come out and said the workers at the hospital call her daughter "the body".

So first you have the daughter bleeding profusely while in recovery while nobody seemed to care. Then you have the hospital going back and forth with what they are willing to let the family do as far as transferring her AND being cruel by calling her "the body".

No doubt - they were using those terms deliberately because they were trying to emphasize the state of her being; to drive home the point that she is deceased. It does make me cringe a bit, too, even though I understand why they are doing it. But I think the bigger picture, i.e. that "her body" is still connected to a ventilator and lovingly being cared for (as the family has confirmed), demonstrates compassion in a larger sense. The folks who are "helping" them and encouraging false hope that she will survive this, are the ones being ultimately hurtful, even though they probably mean well, too. Although I don't really fault their lawyer. He appears to be one of the only ones who answered their call for help, and is doing the best he can to exhaust their legal means. I don't really have a problem with that because as many of us have said, we might likely do the same thing if it were our own child. I believe, though, that ultimately, this will come to a natural end one way or another. And at least they will all feel they tried their hardest. Without the lawyer, they wouldn't have gotten as far as they did. I think it was a necessary part of their grieving process to do all they could, and they did. They can later take solace in that. Cost is a whole other issue (that I don't care to get into), but I don't think what's happened so far has been too, too extreme as of now. If it goes on indefinitely, it will be.

 

[MINNIEsotanice]

I just had a tonsillectomy in November. After repeat bouts of tonsillitis. I am in my late 20's, it was the worse recovery ever. I would never recommend this surgery to anyone. I had such bad vomiting that I ended up back in the ER with dehydration. Then I did start bleeding. Fairly large amounts. It would clot and start again. I ended up in the ER again but thankfully the bleeding stopped on its own after a few hours. Otherwise I would have had to go back into surgery and have my surgical site recauterized.
Before the surgery I was dreading having it done but in October I was so sick with tonsillitis that I was hospitalized for a week and nearly septic. I was better for a week and then it came back. So I had it done. I knew the recovery would be bad but never imagined it would be THAT bad.

I feel for this little girl. When I was bleeding it was so scary. I can only imagine what she was thinking or feeling. This situation is so sad and I will now think long and hard about my daughter ever having this surgery if the need comes up.

 

[Mama Mouse]

No doubt - they were using those terms deliberately because they were trying to emphasize the state of her being; to drive home the point that she is deceased. It does make me cringe a bit, too, even though I understand why they are doing it. But I think the bigger picture, i.e. that "her body" is still connected to a ventilator and lovingly being cared for (as the family has confirmed), demonstrates compassion in a larger sense. The folks who are "helping" them and encouraging false hope that she will survive this, are the ones being ultimately hurtful, even though they probably mean well, too. Although I don't really fault their lawyer. He appears to be one of the only ones who answered their call for help, and is doing the best he can to exhaust their legal means. I don't really have a problem with that because as many of us have said, we might likely do the same thing if it were our own child. I believe, though, that ultimately, this will come to a natural end one way or another. And at least they will all feel they tried their hardest. Without the lawyer, they wouldn't have gotten as far as they did. I think it was a necessary part of their grieving process to do all they could, and they did. They can later take solace in that. Cost is a whole other issue (that I don't care to get into), but I don't think what's happened so far has been too, too extreme as of now. If it goes on indefinitely, it will be.

I also think referring to her as "her body" is a necessary evil, unfortunately. With litigation pending, referring to her as alive in any way could end up biting them in the behind. It does seem insensitive and I hope they aren't terming it "the body" in a bad tone but, unfortunately, that's what it is. I hope and I bet they're using the utmost compassion when they're referring to her. But referring to her as anything otherwise is just providing false hope at best. At worst it could be used against them.

 

[Mokat76]

I just read that the Schaivos are now getting involved, further inflaming the situation. Ugh. I feel bad for the family, but their daughter is dead. Their lawyer is merely prolonging their pain. The judge is merely prolonging their pain. There is no hope. There is no miracle coming. Sad but true.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

LOL @ CRAP machine. Unless there is a new sleep apnea machine out called a CRAP machine, the two machines used for sleep apnea are called C P A P or B I P A P cpap and bipap. Not CRAP. But it is funny seeing someone type crap over and over.

And while sleep apnea may contribute to obesity, usually the sleep apnea STARTS because of obesity. I have known many ppl in my life, my dad and myself two of them, that had sleep apnea and once the weight was lost the apnea cleared up.

Now my dad gained the weight back and is back on his bipap machine.

It was recommended that I have this surgery that she had. In my case they were also going to remove part of the soft palette at the back of the roof of your mouth. The reason I chose not to have the surgery is because I read up on all the possible side effects of the surgery and some of the side effects were that when you drink something it can back up into your sinuses and choke you AFTER the surgery. The side effects were too much for me to risk having the surgery. I lost the weight and the problem was solved.

The fact that the mom said that the daughter has been losing weight but that she "still looks good" leads me to believe she encouraged her daughter's overeating and thought she looked good obese.

LOL at crap - I didn't even notice it.

As to the bolded, it's not that simple. There appears to be a very complex relationship between obesity and lack of sleep.

Childhood Obesity Linked to Lack of Sleep

Prominent sleep researcher Dr. Phyllis C. Zee, the director of the Sleep Disorders Center at Northwestern Memorial Hospital, agreed. "There is growing evidence for a link between sleep duration and childhood obesity. What is new … is that perhaps even more important than sleep duration is the effect of day to day variability of sleep wake timing on weight regulation."

Whether sleep is short, interrupted or disordered, researchers believe that lack of shuteye contributes to a supersized waist line by wreaking havoc on metabolism and the endocrine system -- and this is especially true when the body is young and still growing. Gozal said there are numerous studies where sleep deprivation has been shown to disrupt levels of gherlin and leptin, two hormones which regulate hunger and appetite. When the body craves sleep, it interprets it as hunger causing leptin levels to crash and ghrelin levels to spike; this in turn, seems to trigger overeating and may also signal the body to cling to fat stores more tenaciously.

Other studies indicate that poor sleep can throw off the body's biological clocks -- also known as circadian rhythms -- particularly the clock that regulates glucose and insulin, two hormones that when out of balance, are closely associated with weight gain, heart disease and diabetes. Sleep deficit has also been found to elevate levels of cortisol, a hormone that among other things regulates how the body uses energy; elevated cortisol levels have been linked to insulin resistance and a higher BMI.

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/lack-weekend-catch-sleep-risk-childhood-obesity/t/story?id=12743677

Apnea Linked to Cognitive Problems

Obesity, sleep apnea and behavior and learning difficulties can cause significant dysfunction in children, but a new study suggests these three problems interact with one another, exacerbating the effects of each individual problem.

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/obesit...story?id=14873450&ref=https://www.google.com/

And this one will make your head spin, but lots of good points made about the obesity link to sleep apnea, and how difficult obesity is to treat long term. Also, a picture in here is worth a thousand words. (Tonsils)

http://www.enttoday.org/details/article/2121581/Pediatric_Obesity_and_Sleep_Apnea.html

I do agree the comment the mom made about her weight was concerning. Weight loss should have been part of the overall plan of care for this patient, absolutely.

 

[mnrose]

No doubt - they were using those terms deliberately because they were trying to emphasize the state of her being; to drive home the point that she is deceased. It does make me cringe a bit, too, even though I understand why they are doing it. But I think the bigger picture, i.e. that "her body" is still connected to a ventilator and lovingly being cared for (as the family has confirmed), demonstrates compassion in a larger sense. The folks who are "helping" them and encouraging false hope that she will survive this, are the ones being ultimately hurtful, even though they probably mean well, too. Although I don't really fault their lawyer. He appears to be one of the only ones who answered their call for help, and is doing the best he can to exhaust their legal means. I don't really have a problem with that because as many of us have said, we might likely do the same thing if it were our own child. I believe, though, that ultimately, this will come to a natural end one way or another. And at least they will all feel they tried their hardest. Without the lawyer, they wouldn't have gotten as far as they did. I think it was a necessary part of their grieving process to do all they could, and they did. They can later take solace in that. Cost is a whole other issue (that I don't care to get into), but I don't think what's happened so far has been too, too extreme as of now. If it goes on indefinitely, it will be.

I can pretty much guarantee you that the cost of over 2 weeks of care, in the ICU, are going to be into the 6 figure range, at least. For a dead body, with no hope of recovery, that is extreme. I think a TON of good, for children who have a hope of recovery, could have been done with that money.

And, courts in California are ridiculously over burdened. Justice for real cases is slow, at best. While I understand the grieving process, this is another waste of resources. This case, because of it's "emergency" nature is taking precedence over other legal matters which are being pushed aside or delayed further.

At some point, cost must be considered. Unless the mother and her supporters are footing this bill (and funny, no one is talking about that), then cost is a factor. I personally don't think cost should be an issue for those with the possibility of recovery and meaningful life; cost should be of paramount concern when there is zero hope of recovery.

Plus, I shudder to think of the horrible precedent this sets for future cases. Are we going to let EVERY grieving parent hook their child's body up to a ventilator for a couple of weeks to help their "grieving" process along?

 

[Pea-n-Me]

I can pretty much guarantee you that the cost of over 2 weeks of care, in the ICU, are going to be into the 6 figure range, at least. For a dead body, with no hope of recovery, that is extreme. I think a TON of good, for children who have a hope of recovery, could have been done with that money.

And, courts in California are ridiculously over burdened. Justice for real cases is slow, at best. While I understand the grieving process, this is another waste of resources. This case, because of it's "emergency" nature is taking precedence over other legal matters which are being pushed aside or delayed further.

At some point, cost must be considered. Unless the mother and her supporters are footing this bill (and funny, no one is talking about that), then cost is a factor. I personally don't think cost should be an issue for those with the possibility of recovery and meaningful life, cost should be of paramount concern when there is zero hope of recovery.

Plus, I shudder to think of the horrible precedent this sets for future cases. Are we going to let EVERY grieving parent hook their child's body up to a ventilator for a couple of weeks to help their "grieving" process along?

I don't disagree. What I was trying to say is that at this point, it is not unusual. (Speaking very generally) you would probably be shocked if you saw what goes on when people want to give their loved ones every fighting chance; or even prolong the inevitable. And as was brought up earlier, we are all generally guilty when it comes to our own loved ones. (As has been my experience.) It is easy to talk about costs and wastes "from here". Less so when you're living it.

 

[gottaluvPluto]

LOL @ CRAP machine. Unless there is a new sleep apnea machine out called a CRAP machine, the two machines used for sleep apnea are called C P A P or B I P A P cpap and bipap. Not CRAP. But it is funny seeing someone type crap over and over.

And while sleep apnea may contribute to obesity, usually the sleep apnea STARTS because of obesity. I have known many ppl in my life, my dad and myself two of them, that had sleep apnea and once the weight was lost the apnea cleared up.

Now my dad gained the weight back and is back on his bipap machine.

It was recommended that I have this surgery that she had. In my case they were also going to remove part of the soft palette at the back of the roof of your mouth. The reason I chose not to have the surgery is because I read up on all the possible side effects of the surgery and some of the side effects were that when you drink something it can back up into your sinuses and choke you AFTER the surgery. The side effects were too much for me to risk having the surgery. I lost the weight and the problem was solved.

The fact that the mom said that the daughter has been losing weight but that she "still looks good" leads me to believe she encouraged her daughter's overeating and thought she looked good obese.

Sorry for getting it wrong! My brother and uncle call it that so I did as well.


Anyway, the point is that surgery is more dangerous for children and then you add obesity to the danger.

Th doctors should have treated the symtoms while the child lost weight.

 

[DisneyJamieCA]

Looking at it from the mother's point of view is hard to see compassion coming from the hospital. There are conflicting reports on whether the hospital will let another doctor come in to perform the necessary procedures to move her. The mother has also come out and said the workers at the hospital call her daughter "the body". So first you have the daughter bleeding profusely while in recovery while nobody seemed to care. Then you have the hospital going back and forth with what they are willing to let the family do as far as transferring her AND being cruel by calling her "the body".

How do you know there isn't compassion coming from the hospital? The mother has unrealistic expectations of the care her daughter should be getting. She wants her fed. Feeding her won't do anything and only take time, money & supplies from somebody who can use it. And while I'm sure they are taking care of her, the do have a responsibility to the living patients in the ICU. As for what happened after the surgery, I won't believe the family until they allow the hospital to give their version of events. The fact that they won't leads me to believe they have exaggerated what has happened.

As far as them going back & forth on what they are willing to do - I have heard NOTHING on them flip flopping. They are not going to let just anybody come in to perform the surgeries, both ethically & for their own liability. And has been mentioned, I haven't heard of a doctor who's offered. They are also required to release her into the same care she is getting, so where ever she goes has to be reputable and able to actually care for her. The one place the family has offered up isn't that place. My daughter had a life threatening seizure when she was a baby (not a febrile) and ER we went to didn't have a PICU so they were going to transfer her. They could not release her into less care than she was getting, so they had to fly a trauma nurse up to then turn around and have her accompany my daughter to the next hospital. This is how things are done - and if what I heard is true, that Children's in the only level 1 PICU in the area, that is going to take a lot.

As for the family not trusting the hospital - I can see how that would be true, however the doctors THEY (the family) brought in have also declared her brain dead. Maybe the nursing staff is calling her the body (although I highly doubt it), however maybe it's what's needed to get through the family. They understand she is brain dead, they have said that. They have a belief that God will step in and undo that. Medically that doesn't happen.

 

[MinnieLovesMickey12]

LOL at crap - I didn't even notice it.

As to the bolded, it's not that simple. There appears to be a very complex relationship between obesity and lack of sleep.





And this one will make your head spin, but lots of good points made about the obesity link to sleep apnea, and how difficult obesity is to treat long term. Also, a picture in here is worth a thousand words. (Tonsils)

http://www.enttoday.org/details/article/2121581/Pediatric_Obesity_and_Sleep_Apnea.html

I do agree the comment the mom made about her weight was concerning. Weight loss should have been part of the overall plan of care for this patient, absolutely.

Well it's really a what came first the chicken or the egg situation because skinny ppl for the most part do not have sleep apnea. So it is not UNTIL a person gets fat that the sleep apnea starts. They don't have it when they are skinny. Most kids are not diagnosed with random lack of sleep problems. They are obese then they get diagnosed with sleep apnea.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

Th doctors should have treated the symtoms while the child lost weight.

They may have tried that already, or been doing it in conjunction with the surgery. We really don't know for sure, but given how a multi-factorial approach is generally taken, it's probably safe to say it was and the surgery was just one part of a comprehensive health plan for Jahi. Did you see the picture of the tonsils in the obese child in that link above? Really, that needs to be dealt with; it's not going to go away on its own.

 

[Coonhound]

No doubt - they were using those terms deliberately because they were trying to emphasize the state of her being; to drive home the point that she is deceased. It does make me cringe a bit, too, even though I understand why they are doing it. But I think the bigger picture, i.e. that "her body" is still connected to a ventilator and lovingly being cared for (as the family has confirmed), demonstrates compassion in a larger sense. The folks who are "helping" them and encouraging false hope that she will survive this, are the ones being ultimately hurtful, even though they probably mean well, too. Although I don't really fault their lawyer. He appears to be one of the only ones who answered their call for help, and is doing the best he can to exhaust their legal means. I don't really have a problem with that because as many of us have said, we might likely do the same thing if it were our own child. I believe, though, that ultimately, this will come to a natural end one way or another. And at least they will all feel they tried their hardest. Without the lawyer, they wouldn't have gotten as far as they did. I think it was a necessary part of their grieving process to do all they could, and they did. They can later take solace in that. Cost is a whole other issue (that I don't care to get into), but I don't think what's happened so far has been too, too extreme as of now. If it goes on indefinitely, it will be.

I think this is it. If they DONT refer to her as "the body", they could open themselves to a lot of legal issues maybe , not to mention that they'd maybe be misleading the family into thinking that she's still alive and there is hope. As sad as it is, they are doing better by not giving the family any impression that she could be alive. This is why I think they must use the term "the body". It isn't nice, but they're much safer legally that way I believe.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

Well it's really a what came first the chicken or the egg situation because skinny ppl for the most part do not have sleep apnea. So it is not UNTIL a person gets fat that the sleep apnea starts. They don't have it when they are skinny. Most kids are not diagnosed with random lack of sleep problems. They are obese then they get diagnosed with sleep apnea.

It is a chicken and egg situation, but thin people absolutely do have sleep apnea, too.

Sleep apnea happens more often in people who are overweight, but even thin people can have it.

http://www.sleepassociation.org/index.php?p=sleepapneapublic

More specifically, in children

Is it possible for a skinny or thin child to have sleep apnea? I consulted with Dr. Frank Barnhill, MD, b oard certified family physician practicing child and adult preventative care/ADHD-behavior medicine in upstate South Carolina, a bout whether or not a child who is thin can actually have sleep apnea. Because SA is sometimes misdiagnosed as ADHD, Dr. Barnhill sees many children with sleep apnea.

Though SA much more commonly strikes overweight middle-aged men, thin adults can have sleep apnea, and of course, since kids can be afflicted with this disorder, thin children as well can develop sleep apnea.

Dr. Barnhill explains, "Yes, it can occur because of central sleep apnea - CSA -- a true brainstem dysfunction." This dysfunction in the brainstem is not caused by excess fat in the body.

http://voices.yahoo.com/can-thin-skinny-child-sleep-apnea-7639860.html?cat=70

Bottom line is that sleep apnea is a complex problem without easy answers.