The paradox of marriage..

[Arielle22]

I don't see marriage one way or the other. The goal is for it to last a lifetime but it's an at will contract, with or without the vow. The vow doesn't change that so making it just makes me scratch my head.

People say things that conflict with a signed contract all the time in the business world. Deadlines in contracts are ignored or extended (such as the Big Dig in Boston); promised items are not as described in the contract; etc.

Why is it so hard for you to understand that contracts and what people say are not necessarily the same?

Closer to your inability to understand a phrase in marriage vows; people sign contracts all the time when they have no idea if they will be able to complete the terms. Not many people sign a mortgage or car loan knowing they will not be able to make the payments. Yet every day defaults happen.

 

[Acklander]

I understand that most people might mean it when they say it. But I guess my point is what is the point in saying it at all if both parties can choose to end the marriage at any time for any reason?

Because they mean it at the time they say it, and tradition, which is important to many people. But then life happens. Do you think they should take the line out because divorce is an option, so why promise at all?
If we went with that logic, why would a law emforcement officer take an oath to uphold the law, if the option to break the law is there. Or why should a solider take an oath to protect the country since the option of treason or desertion is always there. Or why should a jury. A politician, or a doctor take an oath?

 

[Money82]

People say things that conflict with a signed contract all the time in the business world. Deadlines in contracts are ignored or extended (such as the Big Dig in Boston); promised items are not as described in the contract; etc.

Why is it so hard for you to understand that contracts and what people say are not necessarily the same?

Closer to your inability to understand a phrase in marriage vows; people sign contracts all the time when they have no idea if they will be able to complete the terms. Not many people sign a mortgage or car loan knowing they will not be able to make the payments. Yet every day defaults happen.

No need to be rude. I understand everything perfectly. Sentiments vs. actuality is what you're missing.

 

[sukhakuli]

Marriage isn't just a legal construct for many people, it involves their religion, too. The people I know who got married in front of the justice of the peace, didn't exchange vows, so the death do us part thing is moot for them.

We're Catholic, so we do feel that we will be married until we die. Marriage is a sacrament, and we don't take those lightly. I do believe that divorce (in the Church it's annulment, usually) should be allowed in extreme cases.

I think Mormons believe that your spouse follows you to your kingdom in heaven, any Mormons here that can expound upon that? I'm not sure what members of the LDS church think about divorce.

 

[Cannot_Wait_4Disney]

I never signed any contract when I was married. I just took an oath, one that I and my wife have kept. We certainly don't regard our marriage as just a contract that can be terminated any time. The law allows it because it is in society's interest to allow people to have a route to split without confrontation and huge expense. It also allows people whose partner has broken their vow either by infidelity, abuse, or neglect to get out more quickly. But that doesn't mean that any vow beyond I'm gonna get out whenever I want to is meaningless. Far from it.

The divorce rate in this country measured properly peaked at just over 40%. But within that 40% are people that get divorced multiple times. Also within that 40% are marriages that ended not because someone just up and decided to terminate a contract at will but because the other party broke their vows. When those factors are considered, the vast majority of people take till death do us part seriously and fulfil that vow or fully intend to at the time they make it. The minority that regard marriage as just some sort of at will contract or convenience and nothing more are just playing house. They are Married in name only.

 

[Arielle22]

No need to be rude. I understand everything perfectly. Sentiments vs. actuality is what you're missing.

I wasn't being rude. You don't seem to want to recognize the other viewpoints so I was trying to show you that this is no different than other contracts.

 

[lizzi6692]

I never signed any contract when I was married. I just took an oath, one that I and my wife have kept. We certainly don't regard our marriage as just a contract that can be terminated any time. The law allows it because it is in society's interest to allow people to have a route to split without confrontation and huge expense. It also allows people whose partner has broken their vow either by infidelity, abuse, or neglect to get out more quickly. But that doesn't mean that any vow beyond I'm gonna get out whenever I want to is meaningless. Far from it. The divorce rate in this country measured properly peaked at just over 40%. But within that 40% are people that get divorced multiple times. Also within that 40% are marriages that ended not because someone just up and decided to terminate a contract at will but because the other party broke their vows. When those factors are considered, the vast majority of people take till death do us part seriously and fulfil that vow or fully intend to at the time they make it. The minority that regard marriage as just some sort of at will contract or convenience and nothing more are just playing house. They are Married in name only.

You don't have a marriage license? Signing that amounts to signing a contract. Yes there's more to marriage than that, but the legal part of marriage is a contract.

 

[SingingMom]

You don't have a marriage license? Signing that amounts to signing a contract. Yes there's more to marriage than that, but the legal part of marriage is a contract.

Yes, the legal side is definitely a contract. And the spiritual part is a covenant - a sacred promise. And as Catholics, we believe it is a sacrament "an outward sign, instituted by Christ, to give Grace."

"SingingMom" ....Sent from my iPad using DISBoards

 

[DopeyDame]

Yes, the legal side is definitely a contract. And the spiritual part is a covenant - a sacred promise. And as Catholics, we believe it is a sacrament "an outward sign, instituted by Christ, to give Grace."

(And you just gave me major flashbacks to confirmation class! )

To me, there were three parts to getting married. They were clearly related, but very distinct and separate as far as planning and intention.

1. A party. A big, awesome, celebrate life with my closest family and friends party. Several contracts were involved here. I signed them in good faith, fully intending to pay the bills for the rental hall and caterer, etc. I also understood that they had an "out" or penalty if I didn't fulfill my end of the agreement, and vice versa.
2. A legal agreement between me and my future husband, as dictated by the state. This part involved driving three hours to a court house in a different state during their limited business hours, changing my W-2 forms, getting an updated social security card with my new name, etc. I completed these tasks in good faith. I also know that there is an "out" through divorce, a new name change, a new W-2, and sitting in the social security office again.
3. A sacred covenant (ie, a promise between me, my DH, and God). The Sacrament of Holy Matrimony. Pre-cana training, meeting with priests, working every day to be the best wife I can be, and living the rest of my life with my husband. This is "till death do us part." There is no out.

I realize not everyone does all 3 parts. Some do 2 and 3, and don't have a party. Some do 1 and 2. Some do 2. Some just do 1 and 3 and never get the state involved (certainly that's true of many homosexual couples).

But for me, #3 is, indeed, "till death do us part" That's a promise I made to God and my husband, and I'm going to do my absolute best to fulfill that promise.

 

[NHdisneylover]

No need to be rude. I understand everything perfectly. Sentiments vs. actuality is what you're missing.

How was that poster being rude? You kept referring to marriage as a contract, so this person used your own terms and an example of how even THEN it is common for people to enter a contract and not know for certain how things will work out.

Besides, for a large number of people, the actuality IS a marriage which lasts until they are separated by death.

 

[lizzi6692]

Yes, the legal side is definitely a contract. And the spiritual part is a covenant - a sacred promise. And as Catholics, we believe it is a sacrament "an outward sign, instituted by Christ, to give Grace." "SingingMom" ....Sent from my iPad using DISBoards

I definitely get that. I'm not Catholic but my marriage vows definitely meant more to me than just the legal part and like many others outside of a few very specific situations divorce is not an option for us(that's why I have a copy of them on the wall that I walk by everyday). I'm just pointing out that it's silly to say you(general) didn't sign a contract when you got married.

 

[Money82]

How was that poster being rude? You kept referring to marriage as a contract, so this person used your own terms and an example of how even THEN it is common for people to enter a contract and not know for certain how things will work out.

Besides, for a large number of people, the actuality IS a marriage which lasts until they are separated by death.

The tone was rude. They asked me "What am I not understanding...." That's a rude phrase. I understand this perfectly which is why I asked the question about the paradox of marriage.

 

[Cannot_Wait_4Disney]

You don't have a marriage license? Signing that amounts to signing a contract. Yes there's more to marriage than that, but the legal part of marriage is a contract.

I never said it wasn't. I said

We certainly don't regard our marriage as just a contract that can be terminated any time.

Again, there is a difference between De Jure and De Facto. Marriage is much more than just a legal contract. I took my oath seriously. Most people do.
And to answer your question, back when I was married, certification by a pastor was accepted by the state. But now that the bureaucracy has expanded to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy, a license and fee are required as well as birth certificates, IDs, and a host of other red tape requirements. Although my state is not one of them, 9 states still have common law marriages.

 

[NHdisneylover]

The tone was rude. They asked me "What am I not understanding...." That's a rude phrase. I understand this perfectly which is why I asked the question about the paradox of marriage.

Well, you seem to understand YOUR opinion on it perfectly--which you keep repeating (I really do not understand why you asked--as you seem to have your mind made up already. )
You do not seem to understand, or be willing to consider, any alternate view points, no matter how we try to explain them to you.

 

[Money82]

Well, you seem to understand YOUR opinion on it perfectly--which you keep repeating (I really do not understand why you asked--as you seem to have your mind made up already. )
You do not seem to understand, or be willing to consider, any alternate view points, no matter how we try to explain them to you.

I have considered alternate view points but, IMO, reason should outweigh sentiments.

 

[NHdisneylover]

I have considered alternate view points but, IMO, reason should outweigh sentiments.

Then, as many have poitned out, YOU should nto say it.

Personally, I see no reason to get married to someone who is not seeing it as a lifetime commitment, nor do I want to enter into a marriage seeing it as an "at will" thing, so DH and I had it in our vows.

Our vows, our sentiments, our reality, our reasons, our lives, our choice (and, by the way, I think it is pretty rude of you to imply that people who believe that a lifetime commitment should be in their vows and disagree with your assessment are not reasonable)

 

[marlynnp]

Then, as many have pointed out, YOU should not say it.

Personally, I see no reason to get married to someone who is not seeing it as a lifetime commitment, nor do I want to enter into a marriage seeing it as an "at will" thing, so DH and I had it in our vows.

Our vows, our sentiments, our reality, our reasons, our lives, our choice (and, by the way, I think it is pretty rude of you to imply that people who believe that a lifetime commitment should be in their vows and disagree with your assessment are not reasonable)

And OP, do you realize that many, many people DO NOT say those vows to begin with?

 

[diznygirl]

I have considered alternate view points but, IMO, reason should outweigh sentiments.

Sentiment aside, I think it's reasonable to enter into a marriage contract with the full intention that it be forever.

Just because some marriages end in divorce doesn't mean that forever isn't possible for others.

IMO if you see no reason that your marriage will be until death, then make sure your significant knows this before entering into that contract. If you both agree, then go for it.

 

[EMom]

The fact that I can legally extricate myself from my marriage means NOTHING to me. NOTHING. The vows I made were religious, moral and spiritual. I made a promise to my husband, to myself and to God. Maybe that means little to you, but to me it means everything. If you cannot grasp that, then don't marry. Or marry and leave the "'til death do us part" bit out. Or make up whatever vows you want. Or have no vows at all.

If you cannot understand what we have chosen for our lives, that does not make it any less real.

 

[olwyngdh]

The fact that I can legally extricate myself from my marriage means NOTHING to me. NOTHING. The vows I made were religious, moral and spiritual. I made a promise to my husband, to myself and to God. Maybe that means little to you, but to me it means everything. If you cannot grasp that, then don't marry. Or marry and leave the "'til death do us part" bit out. Or make up whatever vows you want. Or have no vows at all. If you cannot understand what we have chosen for our lives, that does not make it any less real.

Absolutes like that tend to change when there is a shotgun in your face. I went into my first marriage believing in forever. Then I thanked God my daughter and I got out alive.