Is this a reason for Disney to worry?

Then maybe that story just helps people feel better about the snails pace building that goes on now. I believe all of Disney Land was built in the same amount of time it takes to build a parking garage now.

That's not a useful metric. You can compare Disney today vs Universal today, but comparing construction time against a project in the 1960s, or even really as recently as the 1980s just isn't meaningful. The level of bureaucracy, planning, safety evaluations etc, that come with even modest sized construction today are just orders of magnitude more burdensome than in decades past.
 
Yes it was. And look, they're practically having to gut the place and start again... :D
I still have mixed feelings about the criticism thrown DHS or really MGM's way. The park was designed with a specific purpose, that purpose was met to great success. The layout made sense at the time, but as time went on they strayed demanding different things from the park. What was once a studio tour with a small theme park attached, became a full fledged theme park (or that was the goal at least). I think it's more a testament of the failure of management to have clear objectives set into stone, and not sticking by them. It's like saying an airplane doesn't make a great boat, not fair.

It also was the reason that we got the the great additions of the 1990s (sometimes they weren't fully baked, but they put the basic infrastructure of the resort in place). While this has somewhat been spun into a failure, DHS was a smashing success. Like Epcot however, it didn't age well (though Epcot avoids most criticism). So if it was "knee jerk," it was one well designed and implemented reaction that resulted in success that surpassed Universal's efforts.
 
I still have mixed feelings about the criticism thrown DHS or really MGM's way. The park was designed with a specific purpose, that purpose was met to great success. The layout made sense at the time, but as time went on they strayed demanding different things from the park. What was once a studio tour with a small theme park attached, became a full fledged theme park (or that was the goal at least). I think it's more a testament of the failure of management to have clear objectives set into stone, and not sticking by them. It's like saying an airplane doesn't make a great boat, not fair.

It also was the reason that we got the the great additions of the 1990s (sometimes they weren't fully baked, but they put the basic infrastructure of the resort in place). While this has somewhat been spun into a failure, DHS was a smashing success. Like Epcot however, it didn't age well (though Epcot avoids most criticism). So if it was "knee jerk," it was one well designed and implemented reaction that resulted in success that surpassed Universal's efforts.
I agree with you here. DHS was great at the time but just hasn't remained great as time has gone on. There definitely still are great aspects but overall it's just kind of disneys lets throw things here park. I'm glad they finally have a new vision for this park that can work for the future really no matter what. Movies and film will likely always be a part of people's lives so trying to put people into movies should work well.
 


This is the one I don't buy. Disney broke ground in 2014. Opening in 2017 is not in reasonable. The deal was announced in 2011 when pretty much nothing had been started in the project so 2.5 years of design work. Now if they announced in 2013 that probably would've been different. Star Wars was purchased in 2012. Star Wars announced in 2015. Completion in 2019-2020, just to put in perspective.

The counter to that is that Disney did things just as cutting edge from a technological/mechanical perspective in the past on a much more condensed schedule at a higher quality rate with far more Limited financial means...

And if you were to say "but things cost much more now"...I call shenanigans there. Because purchasing power/inflation is relative, organized labor has been beaten down compared to the peak of the 20th century, materials are almost all begotten from sweatshop labor overseas...and the constant price Increases are a natural offset.

You can't swing the Dutch door and not have it crack you in the back side if you try to straddle it.

What they lack now is the will and business acumen to do it with any urgency...that's for money...profit motive.
 
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The counter to that is that Disney did things just as cutting edge from a technological/mechanical perspective in the past on a much more condensed schedule at a higher quality rate with far more Limited financial means...

And if you were to say "but things cost much more now"...I fall shenanigans there. Because purchasing power/inflation is relative, organized labor has been beaten down colored to the peak of the 20th century, materials are almost all begotten from sweatshop labor overseas...and the constant price Increases are a natural offset.

You can't swing the Dutch door and not have it crack you in the back side if you try to straddle it.

What they lack now is the will and business acumen to do it with any urgency...that's for money...profit motive.
I agree with what you are saying I was just trying to point out that avatar is not the only project taking that long.
 


Because limited and cheapskatery are the new "accepted" normals for a non-selective consumership...

Bottomline.

Why give them cake when they'll fight for crackers?

Understandable...but still not an excuse for Brand erosion.
Sadly this has been proven true time and time again. Look at the version of Pooh that WDW ended up with, the NFL expansion with a copy ride and one that's a shell of what it was planned to be and the constant problems of MDE. Despite all of this there are insane lines and people waiting to hand over money like there is no tomorrow. It's kind of fascinating.
 
I agree with you here. DHS was great at the time but just hasn't remained great as time has gone on. There definitely still are great aspects but overall it's just kind of disneys lets throw things here park. I'm glad they finally have a new vision for this park that can work for the future really no matter what. Movies and film will likely always be a part of people's lives so trying to put people into movies should work well.
Amen.

I am a little sad that some of the final vestiges of exploration theme parks are coming to a close though. Epcot has all but lost Future World, World Showcase is faltering, and DHS is slashing away the past. Even Animal Kingdom, is going into sci-fi.

The model of theme park designed when Epcot launched is extinct. A shame, but understandable nonetheless.
 
The model of theme park designed when Epcot launched is extinct. A shame, but understandable nonetheless.

By choice...never forget that.

The old model worked fine. Disney world never had an attendance problem that wasn't the result of a financial recession. The product worked.

They went to princesses, reservations for fireworks, and nonsense overlays 100% on their own.

The people never asked for it...they'll just take whatever you give them. It used to be something to be very proud of...now the jury is back out.

In the case of Epcot this is truly disingenuous...as people frame it wrong.

It's often compared to something like the space shuttle...or the dot matrix printer. Not at all. The park was unique enough to endure indefinitely...but two management structures were not vigilant. They didn't want to put the pennies back in and it really shows now.

It's not like the space shuttle...where we know 1 of 50 flights would result in explosion and total crew loss (it was in the challenger report and right on the money)...That had to go.

The stock wonk managers turned their back on her...it's only gonna get worse...and we support it in our naïveté
 
I thought it was FOOLISH of Disney when they let the Harry Potter behemoth get away to Universal. They should have been sure that they were the ones making those movies, and especially building those theme park rides. They let it get away because they didn't want to put up with JK Rowling's meddling (which I understand), but look at what they have allowed to happen in the process!

Now, as a tourist this is all great for me/us. We get more to do when we go back to Orlando (in a month!:mickeybar) and the competition has definitely built a fire under Disney. I'm sure we would have seen some of the coming improvements w/o WWOHP & DA, but no way would they have been as extensive as what's now in the pipeline.

THE ONLY thing I worry about in all of this, is Disney potentially changing it's wholesome flavor a bit to compete with the no-holds-barred rivals across town. I like my Disney World free of bathroom humor, sex & gore. Will it still be that way in 10, 20 years? I hope so...

If Disney had the rights to Harry Potter, they would still be working on the first attraction.
 
2010: Potter opens at IOA,regular Disney visitors start taking 1 day out of their Disney trip to try Universal and visit Potter.No real threat to Disney as Potter is actually bringing in more visitors who are also going to Disney

2014: Potter Diagon Alley opens at USF,all of a sudden guests are realizing 1 day doesn't cut it resulting in many more people taking Universal only trips.Overall Disney is still bringing people in and not spending nowhere near enough money on attractions which is the opposite business plan of Universal as well as taking a decade to build new areas while Universal pumps them out in 1-2,can this business plan continue??

2015:TEA attendance number show every Disney park that doesn't start with the word "Magic" is actually being threatened by by attendance numbers from both Universal parks,sure they're still below raw numbers but percentage increases and projections show by 2018 DHS,Epcot and AK could be looking up to USF and IOA.Disney responds with DHS announcements,but no date of completion for the Toy Story and Star Wars projects.Universal announces the new Volcano Bay onsite waterpark with Wet n Wild closing and suddenly rumors of a new 3rd theme park start showing up at various locations,1.Wet n Wild site,2.On the other side of Kirkman rd across the street from Universal and finally 3.the newest is 400 acres that will be going up for sale by the convention center.

If Disney does a solid job with their DHS and AK projects and renovates Future World at Epcot they will be OK,going by history and the lackluster new Fantasyland I don't have the most confidence in them.The day Universal opens a 3rd theme park to go along with the new waterpark Disney will see their numbers drop or stay flat,the DHS and AK projects are going to be key,if guests find them underwhelming and they continue their history of taking 5-10 years to build future attractions I can't see their numbers not taking a hit.
 
I haven't been to new Fantsasyland yet but from what i have seen, they did a good job and it does what it's meant to do at the back of the park.

I dont think it's a direct result of Universal, i think it's more that time has now caught up with Disney and WDW is looking dated. And with ever increasing crowds, people are going to demand more.

Downtown Disney wasn't drawing in the the people. changing to Disney Springs and doubling the size i think will be a sure winner and it will be packed down there.

Magic kingdom got new FantasyLand and is going through the hub expansion which i think will be it for a while. To get the park totally up to scratch, they need to totally work on Tomorrowland. It's an area i don't personally like going to and it's look very tired. It needs serious work but i think that it will be left for at least a few more years before any work is done there.

Animal Kingdom will be fine once it becomes a full day park. Rivers of light and nighttime safari will do that and Avatarland will be a welcome addition. Dinoland will eventually need to be ripped out and something done there but like Tomorrowland, wont be a priority.

Hollywood Studios.... well we know whats happening there and thank God, it needs to become a destination park and not an extra for those with multi-day tickets. Star Wars will do that

Epcot needs a total reworking of Future world. Ive said countless times that they should totally move the Muppets to there and make a small 'land' for them which also integrates education. World showcase i think is actually fine. I'd leave it but understand incorporating Frozen will increase traffic into world showcase.

Wide World of Sports needs to be bulldozed.

Do i think they'll add a 5th gate? I dont expect to see an announcement for alerts another 10 years. All the current work they are doing will increase and help with attendance so i think they'll roll with that for a while. Probably see a drive with more DVC properties
 
I agree with most of your conclusions...with these notable exceptions:

The park cannibalization that became immediately apparent when animal kingdom opened all but precludes any "new park" in the traditional sense. People have increasingly limited funds for vacation and less time off to spend it.

Magic kingdom "upgrades" where 80% about simple capacity....square footage. It was an easy way to repurpose dead space.

Wide world is far more likely to be expanded Than dozed...the amount of money they make - both directly and through residual spending - off tournaments and groups is mind boggling.
 
First I will preface my comment by saying that it would definitely be bad for WDW to rest on their laurels, which they won't. I just don't understand all the doom and gloom talk about how Universal is going to overtake Disney. Based on the most recent numbers I can find, although their growth is outpacing WDW, neither Universal park has even reached the attendance level of DHS, which so many people here describe as tough it is a wasteland.
 
People have increasingly limited funds for vacation and less time off to spend it.

This is key.

One thing that hasn't been brought up is pricing tiers. One day at either Universal or Disney is incredibly expensive. You don't start seeing any value until you get to that 3rd or 4th day. So the fact that HP was drawing Disney families away for a day says a lot. The margin of profit Universal makes on those 1 day folks is higher than the multi-day people. And lets not forget that Universal is part of the Orlando passport program, where a person can pay about $300 and get 14 days of entry to both Universal parks, Sea World, Aquatica, and some other place I always forget.

There is a point when it Universal has enough stuff to do that a person planning a vacation has to decide, which park do we but the multi-day passes for? Sea World may not be the most popular destination these days, but a person who is willing to go there and buys that Orlando Passport can easily find 5 days of stuff to do across the multiple available destinations. Add Volcano Bay to the mix and you get much closer to a full week. Add a third gate to the mix, and a full week may not be enough.

Also missing from the discussion are the special events. Mickey has a Halloween Party, but at the end of the day what exact do you get and how much do you pay for it?
@$70 gets you:
5 hours (some of which cut into time you technically paid for already if you were there during the day)
Trick or Treat lines (which seem like a colossal waste of time & money... those end up being some amazingly expensive tootsie rolls)
A parade
A show
Fireworks (which you would have gotten on a normal night, but these are modified).
decorations
Some unique meet & greets
Shorter lines on some rides, longer lines on others

On the flipside, lets say you go to Halloween Horror Nights.
If you are already in the park for the day, you can "add-on": your ticket for about $50. If coming just for the Halloween event it runs closer to $100.
You get:
9 haunted houses. Arguably the best haunted houses in the US.
5 "scare zones" - interactive areas with scarers, themed decor, relative shows, etc.
2 stage shows (Bill & Ted / Jack the Clown)

I attended both events last year and the best thing I can say was it was "neat" to be in Magic Kingdom during the event. I think everyone should do it at least once. The parade was fun (even if the damn music was stuck in my head fort weeks... boo to you and you and you and you and you...), a M&G with Jack was fun, and the stage show was find of neat if for no other reason than to see the villains marching around. I can't imagine wanting to go back and spend that much money on it again though.

At Universal I felt like from the time the event started at 5pm until we left at midnight it was a constant stream of events to take in. The haunted houses were great, the Bill & Ted show as pretty funny (even if sophmoric), there were lots of unique beverages with flashy lights, and even Krusty the Clown's giant head lit up with blood red lights was pretty awesome. I enjoyed watching folks travel through the scare zones and some of the makeup in the Face-Off scare zone was top notch. I can see going back to this every single year if I had the ability to.

I know Universal competes with Star Wars weekends by having their Harry Potter celebration, and arguably, Universal goes further by having lots of actors come out and do Q&A panels, and maximizing the large themed areas they have. Presumably when the Star Wars area opens at DHS, Disney will be able to really ramp up their offerings as well.

This post is getting long (I have a tendency to do that), but the short of it is - it is not cost effective to spend multiple days at both parks. It can easily nearly double the cost of a families vacation. Both companies are priced in a way to encourage a family to spend a majority of their time at one place. Universal offers the free express passes while Disney offers their magic band + as well as other small perks for staying on site. But it is going to take more than perks to keep their edge that Disney has if Universal keeps aggressively expanding.

I actually spend the last 10 years exclusively going to Universal. I had gone to AK and Epcot back in 07' and then back to Epcot again for the Food and Wine festival last fall and spend another day going to Magic Kingdom for the first time to attend the Halloween party. That trip was a big change for me. For the first time in 10 years, IOA felt stale. The things I loved about it had slowly started eroding. What was once a vibrant area with tons of unique merchandise in Seussland has gone almost exclusively to shilling Thing 1 & Thing 2 merch. The Lost Continent I loved is a weird little shell of itself. Hogsmeade is impressive and all, but I it's hard to find the will power to shove my way into these tiny shops in hopes of seeing something interesting. It doesn't help that while think the HP movies are fun, I'm not exactly a huge fan. I appreciate Hogsmeade more for what it accomplished by being build as opposed to what it actually is. Jurassic Park always seemed to have broken stuff in the Discovery Center and a bunch of wasted space. It has a lot to do with the canceled pterodactyl ride I suppose, but it is just such a huge plot of land just for a single river ride and it feels misused. Toon Lagoon is just the worst. Show me a single kid that has gotten excited over Beetle Baily or Cathy. Ripsaw Falls has a great facade, but the theming on the ride itself is horrid. Just boring water ways with an occasional figure or sign. I have written multi paragraph posts on everything wrong with Toon Lagoon in the past. And then Marvel island is neat, but again, after exploring it for 10 years, I feel like I've seen it all. Apart from randomly running into a character, I don't have a lot to look forward to there these days.

On the other hand, USF has gone from being a park I used to not even buy a ticket for (10 years ago) to easily the best part of the trip. And with all the work being done at IOA now, it seems IOA is well on it's way to rekindling my interest.

This year we are taking the kids on their first Disney trip, with one day set aside for Grinchmas. It was hard to swallow that single day because it costs so much to get single day tickets. As Universal adds more, I think families who used to spend 1 day at Universal will start spending 3 or 4. At which point Disney's prices per day become hard to swallow. That will be the tipping point.
 
In the case of Epcot this is truly disingenuous...as people frame it wrong.

It's often compared to something like the space shuttle...or the dot matrix printer. Not at all. The park was unique enough to endure indefinitely...but two management structures were not vigilant. They didn't want to put the pennies back in and it really shows now.

I agree with the broad strokes here, but I think the above applies to AK and DHS more than it applies to Epcot.

DHS could easily have been repurposed as the 'teen' theme park aimed at those kids that are outgrowing MK. That would have given the park some focus, and a reason to exist other than just being another gate. Even now, with two big extensions planned, it's hard to say what DHS actually *is*. MK, AK, and Epcot (even though Disney have lost sight of it) all have a clear vision. Quite honestly, the pending name change for DHS might be the biggest clue we're going to get as to whether Disney have just totally lost their vision.

AK is close to perfect in its execution, for what it was intended to be. The issue with AK has always been that lingering half-park vibe, and Disney cheaping out with the crappy dino land was a big part of that IMHO. I'm not sure why we *need* a Pandora to kick start AK. I'm a fan of the concept, and I think it could be great. However a lazy retread of Soarin could have been shoehorned into AK without adding IP. In fact, if they could swing it with the BBC, they could have just used footage from Planet Earth/Earth, to do a Soarin with the <insert savannah/plains animal/migratory bird species here>.

Epcot however I think faces a different challenge, and I think it's the same challenge that would have doomed Walt's actual original EPCOT. The time where companies are willing to spend much time future-casting to inspire young kids to become the leaders of tomorrow is done. As is the period where 'working together' was seen as 'Good For America'. Today's corporate America is far to afraid of showing its hand to competitors. Also, all too often those companies are run by people who are happy to leave that kind of nerdy stuff to Asia; Let America concentrate on producing the Captains of Industry (and associated lawyers/tax maestros). Epcot runs on corporate sponsorship, but it also needs corporate input. Take that away, and Disney is left to come up with the whole kahuna, and I don't think they have the aptitude to do that. It'd be great if Disney could persuade Apple, Google, Microsoft, Samsung, Fuji or any of a bunch of companies that live somewhere near the cutting edge of technology to set up inside Epcot. They wont though. In fact probably only Elon Musk could be drawn into that kind of thing, but he seems generally more interested in what can be achieved within a decade. As such we're left with Glidden.
 
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I think the "vision" for MGM is this:
Magic kingdom lite

You keep the two "thrill rides" up front...

You build a new kiddie land...you build a feature Star Wars section that is all but guaranteed to be heavy on theming but comparatively light on excitement...then you put a princess land in the backlot...

If Indiana jones gets a relaunch - then they build an offshoot section there ..."adventureland"...

Whattayagot then?

A park that moves merch and upsells...but lacks soul
 
This is key.

Disney are also beholden to the cost of airfare. Especially for international visitors, the flights alone can be costly enough to make short stays seem like really poor value for money. Flying from the midwest, I'm a thousand bucks in before I've even exited MCO. A three day vacation, even if the mouse is feeling generous with hotel rates and dining plans, is still going to be pricing out at north of 2K, which starts looking like actual vacation money. So then I'm left thinking, do I drop another 1K or so to do a week, or do I just go to Spain.

In the old days, Walt would have started an airline. :)
 

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