You opinions on ads that say "Firm" after a price.

[Gumbo4x4]

Just out of curiosity, I looked on Craigslist to see if it would have saved me much money to buy a 2012-13. Omg, people were actually asking what I paid or only $1-2000 less for cars with 30K miles on them. Often, with salvaged titles. It's bizarre. The more ridiculous the price, the more it seemed likely that they were very "firm" about it.

We did the same with our 2014 Focus. Couldn't find a comparable 2013 for less than $18k or a 2012 under $16,500. Paid $15,000 for a brand new one instead ($21,135 sticker, but there was a $3,500 rebate & the dealer was motivated).

Often, that's the problem with 1-2 year old cars. Many people pay sticker & then 2 years later they still owe more than what one could pay for a new one if they just wait for the year-end discounts.

 

[Dawnlight]

I don't think, in this case, that there is any problem with making an offer. If they say no, they say no. No loss for you or them.

There was a recent poster on the DIs that asked about autograph options for clothing items that were easily packable. I still offered my opinion on a non-clothing item that was very successful on our trip. The poster ended up buying the book I suggested. Should I have ignored the post because I didn't have a clothing suggestion for them even though that was what they specifically asked about?

Make an offer, but maybe put in an appeasing statement along with it.

 

[tasha99]

We did the same with our 2014 Focus. Couldn't find a comparable 2013 for less than $18k or a 2012 under $16,500. Paid $15,000 for a brand new one instead ($21,135 sticker, but there was a $3,500 rebate & the dealer was motivated).

Often, that's the problem with 1-2 year old cars. Many people pay sticker & then 2 years later they still owe more than what one could pay for a new one if they just wait for the year-end discounts.

That must be it. I went through the Costco buying program. Maybe I could have shaved a few hundred with haggling, but using Costco was quick and low stress. First new car of my life (I'm generally a "used" buyer) is a shiny green Toyota Corolla. Your explanation takes care of the firmness for people who financed 100% of their purchase.

 

[crisi]

Your stance is nonsensical at best.

Wasting someone else's time is disrespectful of them. And questioning their own mind is also disrespectful of them. "I don't believe you when you said firm....and moreover, I'm going to pull you away from whatever you were doing at the moment to tell you that you are either mistaken in your own desire to sell your own property at that price, or are outright lying about what price you'd accept."

The other interpretation is that two non-rational people are involved in the negotiation. Generally, buying from or selling to someone non-rational - especially a used car, is not a good idea.

 

[mj70148]

Wasting someone else's time is disrespectful of them. And questioning their own mind is also disrespectful of them. "I don't believe you when you said firm....and moreover, I'm going to pull you away from whatever you were doing at the moment to tell you that you are either mistaken in your own desire to sell your own property at that price, or are outright lying about what price you'd accept."

The other interpretation is that two non-rational people are involved in the negotiation. Generally, buying from or selling to someone non-rational - especially a used car, is not a good idea.

I think it would be a huge shame if someone missed out on an opportunity to purchase something for what they believe is a reasonable price because they were afraid to make the simple 10-second task of making an offer-- nobody knows the mind of the seller - they may come down in price (and i bet you there have been MANY instances when a seller says 'firm' and has ended up coming down). It doesn't hurt to ask, and if someone feels disrespected in the business of buying/selling, that's their problem. They can simply say No to any offer if they feel it's too low. Unless you personally know the seller and are 100% sure they will refuse anything but the stated price, you can't assume they won't come down at the end of it all!

 

[jrmasm]

I would assume people mean what they say. I know I do.

If I say firm and you try to negotiate, I'll assume you can't read.

 

[crisi]

I think it would be a huge shame if someone missed out on an opportunity to purchase something for what they believe is a reasonable price because they were afraid to make the simple 10-second task of making an offer-- nobody knows the mind of the seller - they may come down in price (and i bet you there have been MANY instances when a seller says 'firm' and has ended up coming down). It doesn't hurt to ask, and if someone feels disrespected in the business of buying/selling, that's their problem. They can simply say No to any offer if they feel it's too low. Unless you personally know the seller and are 100% sure they will refuse anything but the stated price, you can't assume they won't come down at the end of it all!

The seller knows the mind of the seller. And the seller has said firm. If the seller is not firm and says firm, then the seller isn't being honest - do you want to buy a used car from someone who is playing games?

If the seller does not move his merchandise after listing a firm offer, they might pull the ad and relist with a lower firm price or with no "firm" statement. To make an offer when the listed price says firm says "I don't really believe you and I'm going to waste your time making you come to the phone."

I haven't sold a car in years - I trade mine in or donate them - because it DOES take a lot of time to answer the phone over and over again and deal with yahoos who can't understand English or think firm means "maybe not for me."

Its isn't a huge shame to miss a deal. Its a huge shame to treat another human being like they owe you because they are trying to sell a car.

 

[mj70148]

The seller knows the mind of the seller. And the seller has said firm. If the seller is not firm and says firm, then the seller isn't being honest - do you want to buy a used car from someone who is playing games?

If the seller does not move his merchandise after listing a firm offer, they might pull the ad and relist with a lower firm price or with no "firm" statement. To make an offer when the listed price says firm says "I don't really believe you and I'm going to waste your time making you come to the phone."

I haven't sold a car in years - I trade mine in or donate them - because it DOES take a lot of time to answer the phone over and over again and deal with yahoos who can't understand English or think firm means "maybe not for me."

Its isn't a huge shame to miss a deal. Its a huge shame to treat another human being like they owe you because they are trying to sell a car.

I guess it'll be a good thing I won't be attempting to purchase a car from you in the future

Attempting to make an offer on something a seller has listed isn't treating anybody like they 'owe me one'. It's a basic part of haggling, selling, buying, negotiating, etc. It's absolutely nothing personal. I know that some people use the term 'Firm' as a very serious stop to any offers under the listed amount, and others may say it and are willing to come down in the right situation, with the right buyer (my husband and father have both bought things--though not cars-- for under listing price with 'firm' listed). I guess each buyer and seller has their own set rules they live by in these situations!

Again- this is not buying a car- but my husband and I just bought a house. After our initial offer, the sellers came back with a relatively good counter-offer, saying that is the absolute low they would go, and can offer no repairs, as they are underwater in their loan already. ('Firm'). After inspection, we decided to negotiate again, (despite the seemingly-set number they told us they would do), and they accepted it. We would have never known unless we asked. They could have said No, but they didn't. Again, it's not buying a car listed online, obviously, but just because someone says something is a 'bottom line' doesn't always mean that's REALLY their bottom line

 

[kymom99]

Since this car is in your neighborhood, could you take a walk past the house and try to catch someone outside? Then just strike up a casual conversation about the car. You should be able to get a feel for things that way, as well as satisfy your own curiosity.

 

[crisi]

I guess it'll be a good thing I won't be attempting to purchase a car from you in the future

Attempting to make an offer on something a seller has listed isn't treating anybody like they 'owe me one'. It's a basic part of haggling, selling, buying, negotiating, etc. It's absolutely nothing personal. I know that some people use the term 'Firm' as a very serious stop to any offers under the listed amount, and others may say it and are willing to come down in the right situation, with the right buyer (my husband and father have both bought things--though not cars-- for under listing price with 'firm' listed). I guess each buyer and seller has their own set rules they live by in these situations!

Again- this is not buying a car- but my husband and I just bought a house. After our initial offer, the sellers came back with a relatively good counter-offer, saying that is the absolute low they would go, and can offer no repairs, as they are underwater in their loan already. ('Firm'). After inspection, we decided to negotiate again, (despite the seemingly-set number they told us they would do), and they accepted it. We would have never known unless we asked. They could have said No, but they didn't. Again, it's not buying a car listed online, obviously, but just because someone says something is a 'bottom line' doesn't always mean that's REALLY their bottom line

I'm making a point about respecting others and you make the point that you were fortunate enough to take advantage of someone else's disadvantage in being underwater on their loan and having to sell. I believe you have made my point. YOU got a good deal though.

 

[mj70148]

I'm making a point about respecting others and you make the point that you were fortunate enough to take advantage of someone else's disadvantage in being underwater on their loan and having to sell. I believe you have made my point. YOU got a good deal though.

So you're saying that you would gladly pay above what you could get something for? I'm sorry, I don't have the cash for that. If the seller of our house couldn't afford what we offered, they could have said no. There was no "taking advantage" involved, because the sellers agreed to it. You can't take advantage of someone if they have the final say - they either willingly agree to a price or are making poor choices for themselves- which is not my responsibility to make sure they do. I still don't understand your point about being respectful and taking advantage of a seller. It's always in the sellers rights to say No to an offer. They have just as much control over the final price as a buyer does. That's why there are negotiations and agreements involved. I'm not stealing anything by doing so.

 

[kamik86]

I'm making a point about respecting others and you make the point that you were fortunate enough to take advantage of someone else's disadvantage in being underwater on their loan and having to sell. I believe you have made my point. YOU got a good deal though.

I look at it the other way. The sellers position has nothing to do with what I am willing to pay for something. When my house didn't appraise for the value we originally agreed on I almost walked. I wasn't bringing more cash to the table to cover that and buy for over appraisal. The sellers choose (two days after my firm I'm going to walk date) to come down and since we hadn't seen anything else we liked better yet we accepted. I have now had the house for a few years.

 

[plummer925]

If someone put "firm" with a car sale it could very well mean that they owe what they are asking for and that they are not ABLE to go lower. Just something to think about. If I put FIRM on something and people offered less, more than likely I'd kindly say "sorry, as stated my price is firm"

 

[ajwolfe]

If an ad says firm, I would take it that the seller was not willingly to negotiate and wouldn't waste either of our time to ask them. And if as the seller I said firm and someone asked me to negotiate I wouldn't think they were unable to read/understand the ad and be annoyed by the contact.

 

[Judique]

So, TV Guy, did you make that offer yet?

I wouldn't worry one whit about the word firm being used. People throw that word around all the time.

If they didn't want to sell, they wouldn't have put a sign out.

They may want to get top dollar, but it's a 10 year old car. Yes, mileage is low, and it will stay low so long as they keep the sign on it and don't sell.

My son bought a car recently with 2900 miles on it. It was a 2010. Bottom line was he could get a good deal on this one or buy a newer car. We were able to get the price dropped substantially because the 'year' couldn't compete with newer cars, even though the mileage was low.

 

[angierae]

Actually these days many insurance companies use settlement software that looks at comparable sales in your area to get the actual cash value, not at KBB or NADA values. They should be able to show you the comparable sales they used to determine that value - and how they valued any differences in things like condition, mileage, etc. If sales in your area are going higher than KBB or NADA, then they will pay you that. That was my case. I did legwork before they offered me my settlement amount by looking at comparable listings and sales, and they were right in line with the settlement they offered. I was all ready to dispute because KBB/NADA values were much lower, but I didn't have to because the insurance company did the same thing I did to determine the value.

Yup. When I totaled my 2007 Cobalt I actually got more than I paid for it (by several thousand dollars - I bought it for $7999 which was a great deal) and they paid out almost $12,500 for it. I ended up buying a 2008 with way fewer miles.

 

[crisi]

So you're saying that you would gladly pay above what you could get something for? I'm sorry, I don't have the cash for that. If the seller of our house couldn't afford what we offered, they could have said no. There was no "taking advantage" involved, because the sellers agreed to it. You can't take advantage of someone if they have the final say - they either willingly agree to a price or are making poor choices for themselves- which is not my responsibility to make sure they do. I still don't understand your point about being respectful and taking advantage of a seller. It's always in the sellers rights to say No to an offer. They have just as much control over the final price as a buyer does. That's why there are negotiations and agreements involved. I'm not stealing anything by doing so.

No, I'm saying that at that point the respectful thing to do is to walk away from the deal. They've said they can't go lower, they've even explained its would be a financial hardship for them to go lower. At that point, you applied pressure to a situation that already had a lot of pressure on it by offering less than what they already said was their floor post inspection. So, did you not believe them that that was their floor? Did you not believe them that they were already underwater? Or did you hope in their emotional state of "we sold our house" that they'd feel backed into a corner and change their mind?

The first two does not respect what they told you. The third takes advantage of their misfortune.

 

[crisi]

I look at it the other way. The sellers position has nothing to do with what I am willing to pay for something. When my house didn't appraise for the value we originally agreed on I almost walked. I wasn't bringing more cash to the table to cover that and buy for over appraisal. The sellers choose (two days after my firm I'm going to walk date) to come down and since we hadn't seen anything else we liked better yet we accepted. I have now had the house for a few years.

That is the way this is done in real estate. In real estate houses aren't listed as "firm" and in some states there is a requirement realtors present any reasonable offer. But if they don't take it, or counter to continue the negotiations walk away. If they reconsider, the realtors can reach you and you aren't the one that applied pressure.

 

[crisi]

So, TV Guy, did you make that offer yet?

I wouldn't worry one whit about the word firm being used. People throw that word around all the time.

If they didn't want to sell, they wouldn't have put a sign out.

They may want to get top dollar, but it's a 10 year old car. Yes, mileage is low, and it will stay low so long as they keep the sign on it and don't sell.

My son bought a car recently with 2900 miles on it. It was a 2010. Bottom line was he could get a good deal on this one or buy a newer car. We were able to get the price dropped substantially because the 'year' couldn't compete with newer cars, even though the mileage was low.

Its been "firm" for over six months - if he wanted to sell, he would have lowered his price by now. There is a reason its for sale, but its not because he needs to sell the car - and maybe even doesn't want to sell the car.

(My own guess, Grandparent died, and he has a fifteen year old kid and a sibling. He's promised the sibling to try to sell the car - but if it doesn't sell, little Logan can have it when he gets his license - he's keeping to the letter of the agreement with his sibling. Or it could be like my grandmother's townhouse. One sibling had unrealistic expectations about the value of it in a down market - and it took two years for the market to rebound for him to get the price he wanted - he was definitely "firm" and all the siblings had to agree.).

 

[kamik86]

No, I'm saying that at that point the respectful thing to do is to walk away from the deal. They've said they can't go lower, they've even explained its would be a financial hardship for them to go lower. At that point, you applied pressure to a situation that already had a lot of pressure on it by offering less than what they already said was their floor post inspection. So, did you not believe them that that was their floor? Did you not believe them that they were already underwater? Or did you hope in their emotional state of "we sold our house" that they'd feel backed into a corner and change their mind?

The first two does not respect what they told you. The third takes advantage of their misfortune.

Not really. It gives them the choice on if it woudl be a worse financial hardship for them to go to a lower price or to take the risk of having to go back on the market (which looks bad when a house goes back on the market right after the inspection), find another buyer, and that those people will be willing to pay more even though they will now need to be told of whatever was found at that first inspection.
If I was the seller I would realize that this would probably be an even bigger financial burden (if your underwater and need to sell your probably trying to avoid going into foreclosure and that is probably where you would be heading at that point)