You must be swift as the coursing river (as long as it's the Lazy River) - comments welcome

[garneska]

My dog is the same. She is like why are we going, it is Fing hot. Screw you I am going home. Oh and she hates fireworks so she is barely going out. I just took her at 8 pm and nope nothing, she wants back in. She did go out at 4:30 we had everything so I hope she hangs on till morning.

 

[WillRunForPizza]

Building a training plan, part 10: Marathon plan 1.0
In which it's all just squiggles at this point

Part 1: What am I thinking??
Part 2: Sources
Part 3: Principles
Part 4: Elements of training
Part 5: Mental training
Part 6: Mile plan 1.0
Part 7: Mile plan 2.0
Part 8: Workouts
Part 9: Periodization

Now, after many weeks of talking, it's finally here. The training plan.

ID: GIF of Indy picking up an artifact and looking awed.

Well, the first draft, anyway. I'm sure it still needs some work, but I can't look at it anymore, so it's time for crowdsourcing.

Reminder: I'm taking 1-2 unstructured recovery weeks after my mile time trial then starting a 16-week plan going into the Space Coast Marathon (which I have finally actually signed up for!). During those 16 weeks, I'm also signed up for the DC Half (Sept. 17), which I plan to race, and the Army Ten-Miler (Oct. 8), which I am tentatively planning to treat as a long workout. This will my second marathon and the first one I'm trying to race rather than just finish. My goal is to finish in under 4 hours.

Phase 1: Base (5 weeks)
I had originally planned to do three- or maybe four-week cycles (2/3 weeks of increasing mileage and then a cutback week). As you'll see, it didn't quite work out that way in practice. But I do have lower-mileage weeks interspersed throughout the plan - they're just not as regular as "every third/fourth week".

The base phase pretty quickly builds up to a 16-mile long run with weekly mileage in the low 50s. I didn't end up including any runs longer than 16 miles in the plan. I may still go a little farther, but I think the overall mileage matters most, and I feel pretty good about that. It's a pretty quick buildup, but that seems okay to me since I've gotten close to this mileage before.

Base weeks have one workout, a medium-long run, and a long run, plus three easy/recovery runs. The workouts in this phase shouldn't be challenging; they're mostly just to remind my legs what speed feels like as I'm building mileage.





Phase 2: Stamina (5 weeks)
This segment actually starts with an abbreviated taper into the DC Half, and then a recovery week. Most of the workouts here are obviously focused on lactate threshold pace (LTP), but there's a little bit of variety.





Phase 3: Specific (4 weeks)
Although I've included a little bit of marathon pace (MP) work earlier in the plan, the specific phase really focuses on this pace so I can internalize it. For these workouts I'm actually going to try to run the early miles slower than MP and then work my way up to it, to practice for what I'll do on race day. Again, there are some other paces in there as well so my legs don't get stale and so MP feels easier.

You could also call the penultimate week of the specific phase the start of the taper; then the final week of this phase is another big week before really starting to ease off in the next section. This phase includes two extra-long workouts, the Michigan, which I did in my spring training plan, and Coach Ben's favorite marathon workout from Run Like a Pro, which I did in marathon training last year. They're fun




Phase 4: Taper (2 weeks)
Here the workouts really start to get easier and the mileage dials down quite a bit. (Weirdness!)



Specific questions
General feedback is definitely appreciated. However, I do have a few actual questions that came up as I was working on this plan. If you're still reading, feel free to answer one or several or none of these, as you feel called to

- Is there some benefit to having more-regular down weeks? Logically it doesn't seem like a problem as long as there's some breaks throughout the plan, but maybe there's some research I don't know about to say it's better to have every third or fourth or whatever week be a cutback week.

- How's the balance of mileage, and particularly long runs, across the plan? Excluding the taper I've got an anticipated range of 38.5 miles (week 6) to 55 miles (week 12). In other plans there's a lot of different ways people go about this: Daniels seems to stay pretty high without a lot of cutting back, the Hansons beginner plan alternates between 16 and 10 mile long runs each week, and Fitzgerald is pretty consistent with the two up, one down cycle. So it seems like there's some flexibility there, but if you've had a system that worked for you, or didn't, I'd love to hear about it.

- Does anything look way harder than I think it will be? (Like the workout I did yesterday that I just massively underestimated *cough*) I tried to follow the guidelines in my chart, but there's a few workouts where I combined or added things that hopefully make sense, and it's always possible I overlooked something.

- Does the DC Half (week 6) have enough of a taper for a B race? I had to balance keeping up with marathon training with being rested enough to race, and I think I leaned a bit on the side of the former. I don't necessarily think that's the worst thing, but if it seems like it's still too much I can try to dial it back a little more.

- Should all workouts with multiple intervals include recovery periods, or is it okay to do some without additional recovery? Examples:

• 4 x 1 mile @ MP/5 min @ 10KP (week 11)
• 6 miles @ MP + 2 miles @ LTP + 1 mile @ CV (week 14)

My thought with the first is that I'm trying to make MP feel easier. With the second (and the first again too) I'm trying to simulate the fatigue of a marathon without actually running 26.2 miles in training. Good thinking or bad thinking?

- What's a good amount of MP work? My previous plan had none, which doesn't seem like enough. Apparently Daniels likes to throw in 14 miles @ MP early in the plan, which seems like too much. The longest MP workout I have is 9 miles. Is that reasonable?

Other thoughts? Comments? Questions? Random observations? Please share!

I think I'm allowed one more image in this post, so here's my dog celebrating the Fourth in dapper fashion:

ID: Extraordinarily handsome Rottweiler lying on a beige rug, wearing a red and blue bow tie with white stars.

 

[striker1064]

Daniels seems to stay pretty high without a lot of cutting back

He's a jerk. It's hard.

Does the DC Half (week 6) have enough of a taper for a B race?

I pulled up my plan from last year for the same race. Note that I was taking 2 rest days, Tuesdays and Fridays.

M: 6 Mi EA
Tu: Rest
W: Progression: 2 Mi WU + 2x (6 min HMT + 2 min CV + 1 min 5k + 4 min Rest) + 1 Mi CD
Th: 6 Mi EA
F: Rest
Sa: 2 Mi EB + Strides
Su: Race

So a total of 33.1 miles including the race. Previous week was 32.5 miles. Still a tough but doable workout 4 days prior. I'd have to dig through my journal but I don't remember feeling particularly worn out.
The week after was all easy running Monday-Saturday and an M Tempo run (1.5 WU + 7 M + 1 CD) on Sunday.

6 miles @ MP + 2 miles @ LTP + 1 mile @ CV (week 14)

I have no particular insight on whether this workout is a good idea or not but holy moly that CV mile is going to suck without a rest period or easy mile after the 2 LT.

 

[DopeyBadger]

Sometimes I feel like the training plan writing process is more fun than the actual workouts. Not every time, but I do find a lot of fun in writing. So hooray for training plan reveal day!

- Is there some benefit to having more-regular down weeks? Logically it doesn't seem like a problem as long as there's some breaks throughout the plan, but maybe there's some research I don't know about to say it's better to have every third or fourth or whatever week be a cutback week.

As for considerations on cut-back weeks. Cut-back weeks are there to help you adapt to the training, and primarily for the bone remodeling process. If you don't have any cut-back weeks and are constantly in a build, build, build mode, then you're dampening your body's ability to adapt. It reminds me of the phrase, "Don't survive the training, rather thrive because of it." And that phrase is applicable in many aspects of writing the training plan.

I'd have to go back and verify this, but I believe the bone remodeling process is on a 3-4 week basis. So that kind of aligns with why you often see a cut-back week every 3rd or 4th week in traditional training plans. I believe you could possibly get away with less cut-backs when the mileage you're doing isn't new to your body. So if you've done 50-55 mile weeks consistently and never had a bone injury, then you could probably get away with less cut-back weeks other than making sure things calm down for adaptations. However, if the mileage increase is new, then you want to make sure the cutbacks occur on a relatively often basis. Does that mean it has to occur every 3rd or 4th week? No, not necessarily. I'm sure there's some wiggle room. Because the remodeling process is not like a trigger being flipped every 3rd or 4th week, but rather the same location of bone is going through the process every 3rd or 4th week. But every piece of the bone is actively in some sort of phase of the 3rd or 4th week process. If that makes sense.

- How's the balance of mileage, and particularly long runs, across the plan? Excluding the taper I've got an anticipated range of 38.5 miles (week 6) to 55 miles (week 12). In other plans there's a lot of different ways people go about this: Daniels seems to stay pretty high without a lot of cutting back, the Hansons beginner plan alternates between 16 and 10 mile long runs each week, and Fitzgerald is pretty consistent with the two up, one down cycle. So it seems like there's some flexibility there, but if you've had a system that worked for you, or didn't, I'd love to hear about it.

I like your long runs, but I do think it would be good to know what pace scheme you plan on using for this training plan. That would help dictate how long a 10 mile LR takes. Depending on the rest of the plan, sometimes I like to limit the off week's LR to 90 min. But you're doing six days per week and at most 2 hard workouts per week. So then I could see the off week workout going up to 120 min or so. Just keep in mind the life cycle of the mitochondria is about 14 days. So if you do a hard workout (>120 min) it takes some time to recover from that. And so you're limited on the number of >120 min workouts you can do in a single 14 day period. The intensity of the >120 min workout matters. A 120 min M Tempo workout is different than a 120 min M Tempo + 2 min workout. It comes down to how decimated the mitochondria is. So you should feel residual fatigue/soreness throughout the plan, but you should never not be able to complete the scheduled workout. If you can't complete the workout, then you know you're likely pushing too far.

- Does anything look way harder than I think it will be? (Like the workout I did yesterday that I just massively underestimated *cough*) I tried to follow the guidelines in my chart, but there's a few workouts where I combined or added things that hopefully make sense, and it's always possible I overlooked something.

Your progression workouts in Week 13 and 14 are incredibly difficult. I would focus more on volume. The Hansons Elite progression is:



They tend to schedule this workout on Thursdays when the Sunday workout is a Fast Finish LR (Start at LR and end at M Tempo). I've done this workout several times. It is really tough, but is good for mental fortitude. You're going to feel like you can't get down to 10k pace, but when you can manage it, it is a big confidence boost. It also really reinforces the concept of starting slow and finishing fast. If you go too fast to start, you'll never be able to hit the 10k pace in the last mile.

None of the other workouts scare me as much as those Week 13/14 progressions. Just keep reminding yourself during the writing process, "Don't survive the training, thrive because of it." Don't do super crazy hard workouts for the sake of doing them. Make sure you're saving yourself for race day. If you're doing too hard workouts too often, then you don't recover and adapt from them. See Week 12 Sunday and Week 13 Tuesday. That Sunday workout is really hard. I question whether it wouldn't be better to have something a little easier on Tuesday (only 48 hrs later).

- Does the DC Half (week 6) have enough of a taper for a B race? I had to balance keeping up with marathon training with being rested enough to race, and I think I leaned a bit on the side of the former. I don't necessarily think that's the worst thing, but if it seems like it's still too much I can try to dial it back a little more.

Looks reasonable. I'd just take the intensity away, but you don't need to drop the volume too much other than the day prior to the race.

The workout @striker1064 recommended is called a "primer" workout. It's meant to elicit a training response in the body, but a low enough volume that the recovery should be quick. You can do 1-2 reps when it is a race week.

2 Mi WU + 2x (6 min HMT + 2 min CV + 1 min 5k + 4 min Rest) + 1 Mi CD

The strides the day before is dependent on how you respond to strides and the tightening effect. Some people do better the day prior without them, and others respond well. Pay attention to how your body feels after a good hard speed workout during mile training. Do you feel good the day after or super tight and sore. If you feel good, then strides the day prior might be beneficial. If you always feel super tight the day after a good hard speed workout, then you may not want the strides the day prior. I've seen people respond both ways.

- Should all workouts with multiple intervals include recovery periods, or is it okay to do some without additional recovery? Examples:

• 4 x 1 mile @ MP/5 min @ 10KP (week 11)
• 6 miles @ MP + 2 miles @ LTP + 1 mile @ CV (week 14)

My thought with the first is that I'm trying to make MP feel easier. With the second (and the first again too) I'm trying to simulate the fatigue of a marathon without actually running 26.2 miles in training. Good thinking or bad thinking?

I wouldn't do the Week 14 progression (see prior). The 4x1 M Tempo + 5 min 10k pace is called an over/under. In this particular version, the goal would be to over/under HM Tempo given the two paces you've selected. What you're doing is trying to teach the body to become more efficient at clearing fatigue. You're treating M Tempo as a recovery pace instead of the run pace. If we assume your M Tempo is 9 min, then each interval is 14 min in length. So in the end, you'll be doing about 48 min of HM Tempo average pace, but using over/under. It's doable, but a very hard workout. The limit on continuous HM Tempo is about 60 min in a max level workout. But doing it as a over/under, I'd consider maybe breaking that up a bit more. Maybe something like

4 x (0.5 mile M Tempo + 2.5 min 10k + 0.5 mile M Tempo + 2.5 min 10k + RI of some duration)

This gets you the same volume of over/under, and forces you to run on tired legs after the 2.5 min 10k portion, but allows some rest after 14 min of HM Tempo average pace. Alternatively,


4 x (3 min M Tempo + 2.5 min 10k + 3 min M Tempo + 2.5 min 10k + 3 min M Tempo + RI of some duration)

- What's a good amount of MP work? My previous plan had none, which doesn't seem like enough. Apparently Daniels likes to throw in 14 miles @ MP early in the plan, which seems like too much. The longest MP workout I have is 9 miles. Is that reasonable?

I find about 75-90 min is the maximum for marathon pace work. So at a 9 min/mile, you're looking at about 10 miles at the most. Daniels recommends 20% of the weekly volume. So if you do 10 miles, then you minimally need to be doing 50 miles per week (which you're doing).

You've got several fast finish LRs which I like, but I think you should do more stand-alone 8-10 mile M Tempo paced runs. When it comes to specificity, these are going to be more valuable than the stamina week workouts you have. I would recommend trying to do at least 1 marathon tempo paced workout every week when you're inside 10 weeks to go.

Other thoughts? Comments? Questions? Random observations? Please share!

The taper. What has you leaning to a 2 week taper instead of a 3 week taper? How fast is the steady pace on 11/12, because you might be able to pull off a harder workout on 11/15. Seems like you may be dropping the intensity volume too much during this period of time and might be missing just one more legit workout. A 6 x 2 min CV isn't specific to the marathon, and is a relatively easy workout compared to other things you'll be doing.

I believe you want to stay around 40-60% of peak volume during the race week not including the race itself. You peak at 54 miles which puts the goal range at 22-32 miles. Since the race is on Sunday, we can not include the Sunday of the week prior (if it was on Saturday, then I'd include the Sunday in this calculation). You have 20.5 miles scheduled for race week. So you're definitely on the lower end of the goal range. You might end up feeling flat based on how much you're dropping the volume. But everyone responds differently to the taper, so you'll only know after you try a few different methods.

 

[WillRunForPizza]

I pulled up my plan from last year for the same race. Note that I was taking 2 rest days, Tuesdays and Fridays.

M: 6 Mi EA
Tu: Rest
W: Progression: 2 Mi WU + 2x (6 min HMT + 2 min CV + 1 min 5k + 4 min Rest) + 1 Mi CD
Th: 6 Mi EA
F: Rest
Sa: 2 Mi EB + Strides
Su: Race

So a total of 33.1 miles including the race. Previous week was 32.5 miles. Still a tough but doable workout 4 days prior. I'd have to dig through my journal but I don't remember feeling particularly worn out.
The week after was all easy running Monday-Saturday and an M Tempo run (1.5 WU + 7 M + 1 CD) on Sunday.

Awesome, that's helpful!

I'd have to go back and verify this, but I believe the bone remodeling process is on a 3-4 week basis. So that kind of aligns with why you often see a cut-back week every 3rd or 4th week in traditional training plans. I believe you could possibly get away with less cut-backs when the mileage you're doing isn't new to your body. So if you've done 50-55 mile weeks consistently and never had a bone injury, then you could probably get away with less cut-back weeks other than making sure things calm down for adaptations. However, if the mileage increase is new, then you want to make sure the cutbacks occur on a relatively often basis. Does that mean it has to occur every 3rd or 4th week? No, not necessarily. I'm sure there's some wiggle room. Because the remodeling process is not like a trigger being flipped every 3rd or 4th week, but rather the same location of bone is going through the process every 3rd or 4th week. But every piece of the bone is actively in some sort of phase of the 3rd or 4th week process. If that makes sense.

Oh, okay, interesting to know where that kind of cycle comes from. 50+ mile weeks are new to me, but I also didn't have a problem getting up to 48 last time around when the most I had run in a week prior to that was about 30. (Benefits of strength training ) So it sounds like as long as I'm giving myself a break from those 50-55 mile weeks every few weeks, it's fine if it doesn't necessarily happen on a consistent cycle.

I like your long runs, but I do think it would be good to know what pace scheme you plan on using for this training plan. That would help dictate how long a 10 mile LR takes.

Ha. So. I have concluded that, for me, having an easy/LR pace in mind is counterproductive. If I say to myself, "My easy pace is X," then it's in my head and I focus more on that than on actually finding a pace that's comfortable. I could definitely see why it would be helpful for people to have that metric, especially if they have a habit of taking their easy runs too fast, but this is apparently how my brain works.

Anyway, all that is to say that my pace on easy/long runs will depend a lot on how I'm feeling. But for ease of calculation, let's assume it will be around 10 min/mile, so 10 miles = ~100 min.

Depending on the rest of the plan, sometimes I like to limit the off week's LR to 90 min. But you're doing six days per week and at most 2 hard workouts per week. So then I could see the off week workout going up to 120 min or so.

Makes sense. I think I might need to cut the long run back a little more in a couple of those middle weeks because otherwise I just realized I have a really long stretch with nothing under 14 miles...

Your progression workouts in Week 13 and 14 are incredibly difficult.

Yeah, I was afraid of that I'm learning that I have a tendency to get overly enthusiastic when I'm being creative with my workouts.

The Hansons Elite progression is:

They tend to schedule this workout on Thursdays when the Sunday workout is a Fast Finish LR (Start at LR and end at M Tempo). I've done this workout several times. It is really tough, but is good for mental fortitude. You're going to feel like you can't get down to 10k pace, but when you can manage it, it is a big confidence boost. It also really reinforces the concept of starting slow and finishing fast. If you go too fast to start, you'll never be able to hit the 10k pace in the last mile.

I like this one - I could definitely use the practice starting out slow. I'll play around with something similar instead of what I came up with.

The 4x1 M Tempo + 5 min 10k pace is called an over/under. In this particular version, the goal would be to over/under HM Tempo given the two paces you've selected. What you're doing is trying to teach the body to become more efficient at clearing fatigue. You're treating M Tempo as a recovery pace instead of the run pace. If we assume your M Tempo is 9 min, then each interval is 14 min in length. So in the end, you'll be doing about 48 min of HM Tempo average pace, but using over/under. It's doable, but a very hard workout. The limit on continuous HM Tempo is about 60 min in a max level workout. But doing it as a over/under, I'd consider maybe breaking that up a bit more.

So the message I'm getting here is NO, do not just do a bunch of back-to-back reps in training. Got it

Don't do super crazy hard workouts for the sake of doing them.

Ummm...who, me?

I would recommend trying to do at least 1 marathon tempo paced workout every week when you're inside 10 weeks to go.

Cool, I'll see what I can do with that as well.

The taper. What has you leaning to a 2 week taper instead of a 3 week taper?

This is what I did the last time and it seemed like it was good. (It is in fairness a little hard to tell because I ran super easy for the first 23 miles of the marathon.)

How fast is the steady pace on 11/12, because you might be able to pull off a harder workout on 11/15. Seems like you may be dropping the intensity volume too much during this period of time and might be missing just one more legit workout. A 6 x 2 min CV isn't specific to the marathon, and is a relatively easy workout compared to other things you'll be doing.

Should probably be around 8:20. I just looked back at the last time I did it, and it looks like two days later I had 8 x 600m @ 5KP/1 min rest, so you're probably right about being able to get in a harder workout the following week.

I believe you want to stay around 40-60% of peak volume during the race week not including the race itself. You peak at 54 miles which puts the goal range at 22-32 miles. Since the race is on Sunday, we can not include the Sunday of the week prior (if it was on Saturday, then I'd include the Sunday in this calculation). You have 20.5 miles scheduled for race week. So you're definitely on the lower end of the goal range. You might end up feeling flat based on how much you're dropping the volume. But everyone responds differently to the taper, so you'll only know after you try a few different methods.

Good to know. It's easy enough to add a few miles back into the plan.

Many thanks to both of you for the feedback!!!

 

[WillRunForPizza]

July 3 - 9, 2023
Mile training week 5
In which the conditions provide an exciting challenge and I'm dead now

Scheduled

ID: This week's schedule

Completed
Monday
Easy: 5.08 miles, 53:54, 149 bpm

Hot, but at least it was mostly cloudy.

Pilates

Tuesday
Progression: 3 x 5 min @ HMP/3 min RI/4 min @ 10KP/3 min RI/3 min @ 5KP/3 min RI/2 min @ 1MP/3 min RI/1 min @ <1MP/4 min RI
11.81 miles, 1:51:48, 167 bpm
Interval split paces: 8:14/8:14/7:53/6:53/7:12, 8:21/7:56/7:38/6:59/6:53, 8:16/7:48/7:47/7:20/8:06
GAP: 8:15/7:48/7:37/6:53/6:48, 8:11/7:48/7:39/7:00/6:40, 8:14/7:52/7:43/7:06/7:23

I am writing this journal from the afterlife. This workout in these conditions killed me.

[2 hours earlier...]

Look, I knew it was hot and humid and sunny. So I wrote my adjusted paces on my hand before I went out so that I could remember them. I felt prepared. Ish.


ID: Adjusted paces (based on conditions when I left) written on the back of my hand in purple marker, by interval time: 5 (min) - 8:31, 4 - 8:03, 3 - 7:45, 2 - 6:56

Also, I want to go back and open up Past Kate's head to see how I worked this out to be 8.5 miles. Did I just count 2 sets instead of 3 somehow? Anyway, at least I did have my hydration vest just because it was so hot out, and I threw in a just-in-case gel which I ended up taking about halfway through, so I was in a not-terrible place for hydration/fuel.

Because of the progression, it was also unevenly challenging. Like, okay:
- 5 min @ HMP: pretty comfortable
- 4 min @ 10KP: not bad
- 3 min @ 5KP: kind of hard
- 2 min @ 1MP: really hard
- 1 min @ <1MP: actively in the process of dying (especially on the last rep when I was running up a steep hill in the sun)

Even looking back after running it, this workout doesn't look all that hard. Yes, it's long and that's tough, but the intervals are overall pretty short and there's a lot of rest. The real problem was the heat + humidity + sun. By the end, my head ached and my legs felt like jelly. Everything I was wearing was completely drenched. I could feel sweat dripping from my shorts onto my calves with every step. Case in point, I never wiped the marker off during the run, and here's what it looked like when I got back home:


ID: Same as last except the numbers have blurred considerably and my hand is much pinker and wetter.

Fun, fun times! Let's never do this again.

mini lower body strength

After a snack, a nap, and lunch, I felt sort of alive again. I did not feel ready for a full strength training routine, but I decided I could do a short one with no weights and no jump squats. And then I was done.

Wednesday
Easy: 5.27 miles, 58:09, 143 bpm

Honestly after Tuesday I was surprised I wasn't even slower.

core + mini upper body strength

Added the short upper body strength routine I skipped yesterday.

Thursday
off

Friday
Medium-long: 7.13 miles, 1:14:20, 157 bpm

I was supposed to do a speed workout today. I felt recovered but decided it was better not to do another workout this week. I have in theory switched it to next week instead. The medium-long run was sweaty but fine, other than terrible drivers trying to murder me.

lower body strength

Originally Tuesday's routine. I like this one.

Saturday
Easy: 5.11 miles, 55:57, 149 bpm

Hot and humid but I stayed mostly in the shade and was okay. My stomach was a little uncomfortable, and I think I'm going to be nixing TJ's peanut butter chocolate protein bars as pre-run fuel - that's what I had before my 10K and my guts were not so happy then either.

upper body strength

Sunday
Long: 10.07 miles, 1:41:22, 158 bpm

Hot, humid, rinse and repeat. But it was mostly cloudy and I felt good. I might have gone a bit longer, but I had places to be...the Kennedy Center for a performance of The Lion King! I saw it once before with my family when I was in high school or college, and it remains great. Rafiki is my favorite character in the show.

When we met up for lunch beforehand, my friend said, "You know, it occurred to me this morning that a matinee showing of The Lion King might have a higher-than-normal proportion of young children..." and she was absolutely right! But it was fine. Anyway, hence the journal post a day later than normal.

Total
Running distance: 44.5 miles
Running time: 7h 35m
Strength/mobility: 1h 52
Total time: 9h 27m

This time it was actually a lot, but I felt okay (except on Tuesday).

Coming up

ID: Next week's schedule

A big drop in mileage, with hopefully no problem finishing two normal-length speed workouts this time. Also, I will post the updated marathon plan once I'm finished making edits!

 

[WillRunForPizza]

Building a training plan, part 11: Marathon plan 2.0
In which 11 seems like a lot of posts

Part 1: What am I thinking??
Part 2: Sources
Part 3: Principles
Part 4: Elements of training
Part 5: Mental training
Part 6: Mile plan 1.0
Part 7: Mile plan 2.0
Part 8: Workouts
Part 9: Periodization
Part 10: Marathon plan 1.0

Thanks to the very helpful notes from @DopeyBadger and @striker1064, I have been slowly making adjustments to my training plan so that it is more effective and also doesn't kill me. Edits include:

• Changing/adjusting some overly difficult workouts
• Adding a little more MP work
• Making sure I have enough cutbacks in the long run
• Injecting a bit more of a challenge into the early part of the taper

Other suggestions or comments? Anything I missed?

I'm sure there will be additional tweaks once I get into the plan based on how I'm feeling as well as general life stuff that inevitably comes up, but I hope it's getting to a good starting place as I wrap up my mile training block.


ID: Super cute Rottweiler sitting in his living room panting after a very warm walk.

 

[DopeyBadger]

Looking good. Only three comments:

-Consider swapping the Week 12 Michigan workout and the Week 13 Progression. In the sequence of Oct 22 - Oct 29, you hit three very difficult workouts. You may overly fatigue that portion of the physiological pace spectrum without allowing sufficient recovery to reap the adaptations. By putting the Progression in Week 12 instead, you're breaking up that sequence with a different type of workout that won't be the same type of challenge.

-Week 15 Tuesday workout. If possible, I'd move it to Wednesday to put it one day closer to race day. Consider something less speed oriented and more endurance oriented. The CV workout will help you less on race day, then say a HM Tempo + M Tempo alternating workout. Something like:

1 mile WU + 4 sets (1km @ MT + 30s RI + 1km @ HMT + 60s RI) + 1 mile CD

or

1 mile WU + 4 sets (1km @ MT + 30s RI + 1km @ HMT + 60s RI + 1km @ 10k + 2 min RI) + 1 mile CD

You have enough time before the race (roughly 10 days) to get in a still solid workout and have enough time to recover from it. I worry that your training load might drop too quickly during Week 15.

-Week 16 race week workout. Drop the 1 min at mile pace as it's overly aggressive and mile pace isn't something you'd been working on for several months prior to that workout. I'd also consider dropping the volume of each of the pace changes a bit. At the moment, you've got it schedule for 17 min. The final 9 min (LTP, CV, mile) would average out to something like 10k pace. So that's roughly 1.3-1.5 miles of 10k pace with an aggressive kick on it. Definitely doable, but maybe just misses the mark that close to a marathon. Just a hair overall average slower might be better.

 

[WillRunForPizza]

Looking good. Only three comments:

-Consider swapping the Week 12 Michigan workout and the Week 13 Progression. In the sequence of Oct 22 - Oct 29, you hit three very difficult workouts. You may overly fatigue that portion of the physiological pace spectrum without allowing sufficient recovery to reap the adaptations. By putting the Progression in Week 12 instead, you're breaking up that sequence with a different type of workout that won't be the same type of challenge.

-Week 15 Tuesday workout. If possible, I'd move it to Wednesday to put it one day closer to race day. Consider something less speed oriented and more endurance oriented. The CV workout will help you less on race day, then say a HM Tempo + M Tempo alternating workout. Something like:

1 mile WU + 4 sets (1km @ MT + 30s RI + 1km @ HMT + 60s RI) + 1 mile CD

or

1 mile WU + 4 sets (1km @ MT + 30s RI + 1km @ HMT + 60s RI + 1km @ 10k + 2 min RI) + 1 mile CD

You have enough time before the race (roughly 10 days) to get in a still solid workout and have enough time to recover from it. I worry that your training load might drop too quickly during Week 15.

-Week 16 race week workout. Drop the 1 min at mile pace as it's overly aggressive and mile pace isn't something you'd been working on for several months prior to that workout. I'd also consider dropping the volume of each of the pace changes a bit. At the moment, you've got it schedule for 17 min. The final 9 min (LTP, CV, mile) would average out to something like 10k pace. So that's roughly 1.3-1.5 miles of 10k pace with an aggressive kick on it. Definitely doable, but maybe just misses the mark that close to a marathon. Just a hair overall average slower might be better.

Thanks!! Added all those suggestions to the plan

 

[WillRunForPizza]

July 10 - 16, 2023
Mile training week 6
In which running fast is hard

Scheduled

ID: This week's schedule

Actual
Monday
Easy: 4.09 miles, 39:05, 119-172 bpm (148 avg)

Clouds! Dew point in the low 60s! Shocking.

Pilates

Meh. Too short, no rest intervals, too long inverted.

Tuesday
Speed: 5 x 2 min @ 1MP/3 min RI
6.48 miles, 1:05:26, 118-197 bpm (157 avg)
Interval split paces: 7:36, 6:52, 6:41, 7:44, 6:44
GAP: 6:53, 6:31, 6:39, 7:13, 6:40

Ugh. Hot and sunny + sprinting is just not a fun combination. Also I think all this sprint training is wearing out my legs. On #4: sprinting up a hill and then CONTINUING TO SPRINT is really hard.

T+D adjustment: ~6:50

lower body strength + mini upper body strength

I actually felt okay while I was doing the strength training, but after I finished I was completely done.

Wednesday
Easy: 4.02 miles, 42:21, 128-163 bpm (148 avg)

Legs were tired.

core

Thursday
off

Friday
Speed Steady Threshold: 2 miles @ LTP (7:58) + 7 min RI + 0.5 min @ LTP (7:40)
5.22 miles, 48:45, 124-191 bpm (171 avg)

Originally, I was supposed to have a speed workout, but after Tuesday wore my legs out, I decided that I didn't want to hurt myself and I should try something a little slower. So I planned to do 4 miles steady (~8:20) with a mile WU/CD. However, my first mile split for the hard part was 7:59, and I realized that was not working out. Instead, I improvised.

I did a couple miles around LTP and then decided I needed a short break. I figured, wait a couple minutes for my HR to go back down and then start again. But my HR just stayed high. Forever. And eventually I just gave up and ran the last bit at LTP again. My HR was really high for the CD too, even though I literally walked up the hill from the trail before getting back to a jog. I assume this is mostly weather-related.

Also I forgot to do the mini lower body strength.

Saturday
Easy: 4.48 miles, 46:04, 135-174 bpm (155 avg)

Steamy.

upper body strength

I was kind of surprised I was able to get through all those third rounds reasonably well

Sunday
Easy: 9.07 miles, 1:33:15, 133-169 bpm (161 avg)

So drenched. So. Drenched.

Thanks to scattered thunderstorms in the forecast (which in fact never materialized), I decided to run around the Mall. Normally I try to avoid this because tourists, but if there had been a thunderstorm, there's more shelter there than my normal LR routes. It actually wasn't too bad until about 9, when all the tourists started to clog up the paths. At least there were lots of places to refill my water.

I should have slowed down more, but I got mentally stuck on my pace.

mini lower body strength

Made up from Friday. I didn't realize how old this one was, and I wasn't really a fan of the short intervals for a strength-ish workout.

Totals
Running distance: 33.4 miles
Running time: 5h 34m
Strength/mobility: 1h 43m
Total time: 7h 18m


ID: Strava training log

A nice cutback week for me. It was hot. And I learned that maybe it's not good for me to do two sprint workouts a week.

Coming up
Tentatively, depending on how I feel and, as I get to the end of this short training block, when it looks like a good time to do a time trial.

ID: Next week's schedule

 

[striker1064]

It was rotten out there this morning. Blergh

 

[WillRunForPizza]

July 17 - 23, 2023
Mile training week 7
In which I still start out too fast

Scheduled

ID: This week's original schedule. Which, as usual, I changed.

Actual
Monday
Easy: 5.04 miles, 52:49, 127-172 bpm (157 avg)

It was hot.

Pilates

This one also included some strength exercises which I did without weights because it's not a strength day.

Tuesday
off

It was smoky again, so I decided to just move my rest day. I did some yoga.

Wednesday
Speed pyramid: 30s @ 6:57 + 1 min RI + 1 min @ 7:07 + 2 min RI + 2 min @ 6:55 + 3 min RI + 1 min @ 6:35 + 2 min RI + 30s @ 6:30
5.03 miles, 52:15, 120-195 bpm (158 avg)
GAP: 6:55, 5:58, 6:41, 6:32, 6:24

At some point in here, I started looking at the weather and realized that this weekend would be MUCH better for a time trial than next week. So, planning for that, I still did the pyramid workout but made it significantly easier. It was cloudy, which was good, but also humid, which was not.

lower body strength + mini upper body strength

I also swapped out the strength workout I had originally planned for an easier one.

Thursday
Easy: 4.3 miles, 46:53, 127-164 bpm (148 avg)

Unremarkable.

core

Friday
Easy: 3.67 miles, 37:16, 126-175 bpm (152 avg)

An easy shakeout run with a few strides before the time trial on Saturday.

Saturday
Time trial: 6.43 miles, 1:05:35

Ehhhhhhh. I planned to get up early so I would have shade, and then just as I was falling asleep, my dog decided he really needed to go out again. So we went out around 10 p.m. and then again at ~4:45 a.m. The weather was better than it has been, but that didn't make it good. By the time I started my warmup a couple of hours later, the T+D was about 132, compared to ~110 when I did my initial time trial. And I never felt as good as I did then either. I was just dying in the second half, and I ended up with a time of 6:47, which was 7 seconds slower than I ran before doing any sprint training.

Even though I acknowledged that possibility way back when I started this short training block, I still felt pretty disappointed when I finished. What was the point of training if I was just going to get slower? But after obsessing thinking about it for a while, I felt a bit better. The weather was harder for running fast. I definitely went out too hard (again), and I got burned in the end. Maybe under other circumstances I would have been faster, but that's not what I had due to factors both outside and inside my control. This is just a reminder that I have to keep working on holding back at the start so I don't crash and burn at the finish.

Also, I was wearing my Endorphin Pros, and I felt like my feet were sliding around in them a bit. I think I might need to wear thicker socks with them. I also had a weird pain in my foot during the cool down, but it stopped as soon as I stopped running, so maybe it was just from the slippage.

Anyway, then I was really tired for the rest of the day, but I'm pretty sure that was a result of insufficient sleep rather than effort.

Sunday
Easy: 3.13 miles, 32:06, 120-169 bpm (152 avg)
Easy: 3.06 miles, 32:30, 122-172 bpm (159 avg)

I wasn't planning to run today, but I was meeting a couple of friends for a picnic in the park a few miles away, and I decided to run rather than bike there. The dew point was only in the low 60s, but the temperature was in the high 80s by the time I ran back, so...yeah, it was a lot. Short though.

Total
Running distance: 30.69 miles
Running time: 5h 19m
Strength/mobility: 1h 2m
Yoga: 32m
Total time: 6h 54m


ID: Strava training log

I could have done my other scheduled strength workouts this weekend...but I didn't. Oh well.

Coming up
WHATEVER I FEEL LIKE. I have two weeks before I start marathon training, so now is the time for doing what I want, when I want.

 

[NYC_MW]

Coming up
WHATEVER I FEEL LIKE. I have two weeks before I start marathon training, so now is the time for doing what I want, when I want.

Yay!

 

[DopeyBadger]

Is the weather suppose to be any better this week for another mile time trial attempt?

 

[WillRunForPizza]

Is the weather suppose to be any better this week for another mile time trial attempt?

Definitely not lol - we are supposed to have some of our hottest weather of the year coming up. Next week looks like it could be better, so I might try again then.

 

[avondale]

Definitely not lol - we are supposed to have some of our hottest weather of the year coming up. Next week looks like it could be better, so I might try again then.

Yes, my husband and I are SOOOO sorry (NOT!) to be missing this week's weather in the DC area.

 

[WillRunForPizza]

Building a training plan, part 12: Marathon plan 3.0 and what I learned from mile training
In which I am lazy

Part 1: What am I thinking??
Part 2: Sources
Part 3: Principles
Part 4: Elements of training
Part 5: Mental training
Part 6: Mile plan 1.0
Part 7: Mile plan 2.0
Part 8: Workouts
Part 9: Periodization
Part 10: Marathon plan 1.0
Part 11: Marathon plan 2.0

First, if you are still curious, here's the latest version of the marathon training plan, with a few updates based on Billy's most recent suggestions. It's attached because I didn't feel like doing all the screenshots

Now, on to the actual topic, which is reflecting on my mile training. Setting aside getting a little slower, which we have already discussed, what did I learn from going through the plan?

1. Don't do sprint training in the summer. It was awful. If I had to go back and plan my summer "break" again, I would just do easy miles with the occasional light workout.

2. Sprinting twice a week is a LOT. I felt like it was wearing me out - not because I was sore afterwards, but because my body just felt tired. Maybe short distances are not my thing. Or maybe I would have been fine if I hadn't also been dealing with the heat and humidity Anyway, if I were to do it again, which I don't plan to anytime soon, I'd probably stick with one mile-pace workout a week and maybe have another day working at different paces.

3. It's okay to make changes. This is one area where I think I was actually pretty successful. If I felt too tired for a scheduled workout, I did something else. If the weather was really bad or I had something going on, I moved things around (which to be fair I've always done). During marathon training especially I want to try not to get too attached to any particular workouts and be ready to change things up if I need to.

4. Plan duration matters. 7 weeks was probably just barely on the edge of maybe enough time to see real improvements in my fitness, so that could be another reason I didn't get any faster (although I think the bigger factors were still strategy and weather).

5. Actually plan for the race (or time trial) itself. As I've said, I didn't really have a strategy going into the time trial, and that was obviously a big oversight. So it's important to plan for not just the race-day logistics but also how you're going to start out and how you want to finish.

6. Allow for additional opportunities to race where possible. While you can't really include a "practice" marathon in your marathon training plan, you probably can do multiple races for anything up to a 10K at least. I think if I did it again, I would probably schedule 1-2 additional time trials even for a short plan, which would give me practice racing as well as running at the target pace. I might still do another mile time trial next week - we'll see.


ID: My dog standing at the edge of the rug waiting for me to dig his treat out from under the shelves.

 

[GollyGadget]

When I did my mile race this spring, the preceding time trials were invaluable. I learned a lot from my mistakes. I still didn’t nail my race so there’s still a lot to learn!

 

[NYC_MW]

6. Allow for additional opportunities to race where possible. While you can't really include a "practice" marathon in your marathon training plan, you probably can do multiple races for anything up to a 10K at least. I think if I did it again, I would probably schedule 1-2 additional time trials even for a short plan, which would give me practice racing as well as running at the target pace. I might still do another mile time trial next week - we'll see.

When I did my mile race this spring, the preceding time trials were invaluable. I learned a lot from my mistakes.

Taking this advice. Thank you!

 

[striker1064]

Is the weather suppose to be any better this week for another mile time trial attempt?

Hahahahahaaaaahaha hahha ha ha

Potential for 100F Thursday, Friday and Saturday!