WWYD? DD's Friends and Their Lack of Education.

Yes, it's proactive.


Redlight, if the OP had a relationship with the Mom I'm sure she would know what was actually going on but it doesn't seem that way. I could be wrong.

If the Mom is not teaching the kids I don't know how one would make her get on the ball~

No--its circumventing protocol and tattling to get the family in trouble.

Depending on the state--it is the COUNTY SCHOOLS who make the mother do what she needs to do. Failure to do so means she will lose her freedom to homeschool and return her kids to public school. Failure to comply with that order--then CPS/DCF or whomever gets involved.
 
This is the part of homeschooling that drives me nuts. If you are doing your job and teaching at or above grade level your kids will have NO problem passing ANY standardized testing even if you don't teach to the test. If you are doing your job having a standardized test, administered outside of the homeschool family, should be NO threat AND it will prevent cases like the OP is talking about. Why is that so threatening to homeschool families?

If a homeschooled child can't pass a standardized test, barring and major learning disabilities, then something needs to be done to make sure those kids are getting an education-either having a tutor come in for x time or requiring the students to go back into the school system or something.

It is a threat in how the data from the test would be utilized.

A child learning history chronologically--would likely fail portions of an American History section in elementary grades.

I have no issues with my dd's taking standardized tests. I have issues with it being mandated and used as a litmus to see if they like how I am teaching. There are 50 states each with 50 different ways to educated their students.

The goal is to graduate the student. But between K and 12--with some exceptions, order and manner of educating the students can vary.
 
I would talk to your own child's teacher or the principal at your child's school.
 
Wow, I see a few advocating doing nothing. That is the saddest option of all IMO. Kids need a fair chance in life, that trumps parents' rights (and is the only thing that does IMO). It's people like this lady that damage the image of homeschoolers and I'd think that homeschoolers would be in favor of some kind of intervention just for that reason alone. It's good to see that most are.

Good luck with this. It's a nasty situation.
 

It is a threat in how the data from the test would be utilized.

A child learning history chronologically--would likely fail portions of an American History section in elementary grades.

I have no issues with my dd's taking standardized tests. I have issues with it being mandated and used as a litmus to see if they like how I am teaching. There are 50 states each with 50 different ways to educated their students.

The goal is to graduate the student. But between K and 12--with some exceptions, order and manner of educating the students can vary.

And without any accountability you end up with situations like the OP is posting about and unfortunately they are MUCH more common than the homeschool population wants to admit. Again, if you are doing your job, why so defensive??

Teacups--I will pit my kids against your kids any day in any testing situation. Again, if you are doing your job, why so defensive about having some accountability??? :confused3
 
I have thought and thought about how I really feel about the home school laws of our state (which are basically non-existent).

I don't like standardized test for kids in public school or anyone else, because of how much pressure it puts on the teachers and the schools. The schools want to have a certain rating so they want higher test scores, that in turn puts pressure on the teachers. Of course they end up "teaching the test", what other choice do they have?

With that said; there really must be some accountability of parents who are home schooling. In order for a child to be a productive part of society they must have an education. If parents, like the mother of dd's friends, don't teach their children and won't let the schools do it; how will these future adults survive? Standardized tests are the only logical way to make sure these children are learning on an acceptable level.

I can understand that a parent may not be teaching the same way the schools are and that it may not be fair for a home school student to take the same test as a public school student; but surely there is some compromise on that.

Isn't there some list of skills that a child should meet by the end of each grade level? I mean,the parent could use any method of teaching they prefer; but still having the student master the same skills by the end of the grade level. And then the parent would be responsible for showing that the child has mastered those skills; just like a teacher in the classroom would be.
 
As a homeschooler, I would suggest you check your state homeschooling laws. If she has to be registered and reported to the county, then your county educational office would be the place to "report" so that they can check on the family in accordance with the law.


I would NOT report them to child protective services as you haven't a clue what is going on in the actual household. In many states, it is the county Superintendent that has jurisdiction.

Since you have not personally witnessed what is going on, you are going on hearsay based on that the girls do not know what your daughter knows. That seriously can happen in any grade for any homeschool child as in many states we have freedom to teach a subject how we wish to do so. (Example is history--some families teach it chronologically which is very viable. In my home, we use Math U See--my dd doesn't know one bit of division b/c they don't get to it until their 4th book which coincides with 4th grade.)


Also--there is a method of homeschooling called "unschooling". I for one am not an expert on it, but many families do homeschool successfully in this manner. The states with more relaxed rules are better able to do this than states that require a more detailed syllabus and attendance requirement.


But please---START with the superintendent/education office of the county and let them handle it if you do plan on reporting.


I would also suggest talking with the mom if you are comfortable--however, this can come across as prying and nosiness if you aren't careful with your words. Be prepared that you may not be comfortable with how she chooses to educate her child and be open-minded that her methods may be indeed viable even if it isn't what you would choose for your children.

While the notion is nice--I think some of lovetoscrap's suggestions are too specific (as though you are probing to see if her dd's school day matches your dd's). If you do not know the mother well--she may not exactly know how to process your inquiry even it turns out she is doing a fine job.

DCF or equivilant has no place in a homeschooling investigation until a homeschool family refuses to comply with the laws of the state. That is up to the Superintendent to determine--not a well meaning neighbor.

I get what you are saying and agree on some points. But, this situation is not any of the things you mentioned. "unschooling" may be a legitimate method of teaching but what she is doing is "no"schooling.

I think what is really bothering me in all this, is thinking about these girls in the future (or any child that is not being properly educated--whether public, private or home school). I am 45 years old and realize what a different place I would be in if I had earned my degree when I was in my 20's instead of my 40's. EVERYTHING requires a degree these days. Even child care centers are starting to require an AA degree. My son is a poker dealer and had to complete a vocational/technical certificate to do that. Without a high school education these girls won't be able to do any of that. What will happen to them?
 
/
I have posted about two different girls in our neighborhood in the past and I will give a little info about each again.

Girl #1 is 14. She was held back in 3rd. grade. I am not a professional but she has a learning disability - at a minimum, she is dyslexic. She reads at about a 3rd grade level. She has never been diagnosed with anything and I am not sure if she has even been tested. She HATES anything school related and always has. She falls further and further behind each year and consequently, her behavior gets worse and worse.

Girl #2 is almost 16. She has been held back twice. She has failed both 9th grade math and science with F's and moved on to 10th grade. The rest of her grades weren't great but at least they were passing. She was diagnosed last year with ADD. She has been tested numerous times in the past and never diagnosed with anything so I am not sure why she suddenly has ADD. She is the sweetest girl I know. I feel very sorry for her because she has been told but numerous people that she is stupid and her siblings are so much smarter.

Both girls are in public school and have been the entire time. Both girls have been told by teachers in the public school that they will not amount to anything when they grow up. It is a sad situation all the way around. If I could adopt girl #2, I would in a heartbeat. She has been so beaten down that she constantly talks about how stupid she is.

The school system isn't perfect and I happen to live in one of the best districts in our state. Some homeschooling parents suck, too. If the parents don't care, they aren't going to care more just because their kids are in the school system.
 
"They are supposed to be doing their work by computer but never do any of it, at all."


She might very well NOT be actually homeschooling. She might be doing a form of public (or private) school at home. And if she's doing that, then it is very different.

And if these girls are that unmotivated by a child's natural urge to learn things...I highly doubt they'd be showing up at a school-school day after day...
 
A child learning history chronologically--would likely fail portions of an American History section in elementary grades.

.

I've never seen a basic standardized test for elementary grades that even covers American History.:confused3 All the ones I've seen test basic math skills and problem solving, reading comprehension, listening comprehension, etc.
 
Teacups--I will pit my kids against your kids any day in any testing situation. Again, if you are doing your job, why so defensive about having some accountability??? :confused3

Could you please point out where Teacups said to pit kid against kid?
I think maybe YOU are the defensive one. :sad2:
You seem to be invested in this. Do YOU homeshool?
 
Sleestack, I believ this is what Golfgal was referring to:

That is such boloney. Then tell me, why do the public schools spend a full school year teaching to the test specifically? (and dont tell me they dont. I used to be a teacher!) Let me give your kids a test on what I'm teaching and lets see how they do. Some people just have a wall up and can not see it.

I'm unsubscribing now as I dont need any more anti-homeschool boloney from people who havent been there and dont know what they are talking about. I'm too busy to waste time on that.
 
Wow. Such strong feelings here on both sides.

OP, I'd also approach the mom and ask her those questions. You know what? She may have started with good intentions to homeschool and then got overwhelmed by it all. Trying to homeschool 2 must be kinda tough IMO. I am in my second year of homeschooling (a sophomore) and it is a lot of work and a lot fo staying on top of things constantly. Tomorrow I have papers to grade.

So, I gently ask her questions about curriculum, time, etc. and do not be aggressive about it--be very interested (because you are) and gentle, even. I think the saying is that you attract more flies with honey. Same goes for this. :)

I'm very sorry to hear MS has such lax rules about HSing. I think parents need guidelines and accountability while having the freedom to teach their children. Personally, we are successful because DD is very motivated. At this point in the her school year (she's been in for about 7+ weeks so far) she is 4 weeks AHEAD in Chemistry. There is no nagging. She moves a long at her own pace and stays on task or ahead. But not every child is like that. Thinking about the planning, teaching, grading, nagging that may all go along with HSing...I think she could have bitten off more than she could chew and be overwhelmed. Or she might be a parent who doesn't care? :confused3 Where is their father??? Who works? Is anyone home with the kids to make sure they'd stay on task during their day?
 
And without any accountability you end up with situations like the OP is posting about and unfortunately they are MUCH more common than the homeschool population wants to admit. Again, if you are doing your job, why so defensive??

Teacups--I will pit my kids against your kids any day in any testing situation. Again, if you are doing your job, why so defensive about having some accountability??? :confused3

My child exceeds most in her same grade--so I'm not worried about testing competition.

I do this completely voluntary. Her math score did slip a little this year (though she is on target). The reason--she hadn't learned division.

Your argument about defensiveness is weak at best.

I'm doing MY job. I am not doing my county's or states job. I am not teaching THEIR curriculum, so why should I be subject to THEIR tests.

Explain that logically and I might see your point.


I've never seen a basic standardized test for elementary grades that even covers American History. All the ones I've seen test basic math skills and problem solving, reading comprehension, listening comprehension, etc.

I used it b/c it is one of the obvious examples that I come across in how a curriculum might differ from the status quo.

The point is that there are many ways to ADEQUATELY do your job in teaching a child and a standardized test created on a state standard developed for public schools would be an unfair assessment for a family who isn't even obligated to teach utilizing the same materials.


I get what you are saying and agree on some points. But, this situation is not any of the things you mentioned. "unschooling" may be a legitimate method of teaching but what she is doing is "no"schooling.

You get it more than me then, b/c I still don't get "unschooling" myself. However it isn't your job to determine that. If you have genuine concern (and it does see that there are some extraordinary evidence that there might be an issue)--then it is up to your county to determine that.

While I think it is all well and good to lend a hand and take the girls to museums and what not, it isn't what the girl needs if there truly is an educational deficit in the home.

Do I think we need to jump to the conclusion and require standardized tests and all that nonsense that tries to make homeschooling "public school at home"---no, but something is clearly amiss in this situation.


As I see it in my home--my children don't have an option to disobey. And they've tried. But when it comes down to it--there is no option. No schoolwork, no life--plain and simple. I'd have the same rule if they were flunking at school, so why not at home. If they refuse to do work they are perfectly able to do--well, they don't get to do anything.

They say pick your parenting battles--well that just isn't one that I am going to lose.

I do not know the behavior of these girls--but it sounds like mom has more than an educational issue. She has a parenting issue. And until she is willing to lay down the law coupled with the girls voluntarily complying to do their school work--nothing will happen. And quite likely--perhaps their grades weren't that good in school either. Who knows?

I've never met homeschoolers like this and I have met hundreds. It is a shame when a parent cannot control their child in the least and are a afraid to do so.

Sadly--in all types of parenting and in all educational situations, there are children who just fall through the cracks for one reason or another. We can't use those examples as evidence that all of that type is bad for everyone.

Perhaps you could do some research in your state and help the mom find a homeschool support group. Homeschooling is pretty tough when you feel like you are the only one doing it and feel clueless in trying. Having the wisdom from successful homeschoolers might help.

But it really sounds like these girls do not have proper boundaries and at least a minimal structure. It almost feels--based on your posts--that they are quite hopeless. I've gotten nothing out of what you have posted that indicates that they DESIRE to learn.


Sleestack, I believ this is what Golfgal was referring to:

In the quoted quote--teacups challenged golfgal's children to test on the material TEACUPS was teaching. Golfgal accepted a challenge to a standardized test. The two are quite different and Golfgal missed the point entirely. Say TEACUPS is teaching her children Latin, Poetry, Physics (in elem or middle school as a stand alone subject)---as an example---she was challeging Golfgal's kids to test on those subjects specifically. Not a random assessment of what Golfgal's state determines that a 5th grader should know.
 
I've never seen a basic standardized test for elementary grades that even covers American History.:confused3 All the ones I've seen test basic math skills and problem solving, reading comprehension, listening comprehension, etc.

Really? We have standardize testing in all the basic subjects including Social Studies and Science.

OP, my neighbor homeschool's, and I use that term very loosely. I am amazed how little her youngest (7 or 8) knows compared to my almost 6 year old. I'm talking about basic stuff, nothing advanced. Also she has 2 highschool aged kids and I figured she was focusing on their education, but that isn't the case either. I was so impressed when I first met the mom and she told me she homeschooled. I know a few mother's who do and they are amazing, and it really shows in their kids. Its pretty apparent that this mom is non-schooling, but I admit I would never think its my business to get involved. (OP, I don't mean you should MYB) This is a new family to our subdivision and I really don't know them well enough to bring anything up with the mom.
 
It is a threat in how the data from the test would be utilized.

A child learning history chronologically--would likely fail portions of an American History section in elementary grades.

The goal is to graduate the student. But between K and 12--with some exceptions, order and manner of educating the students can vary.

My boys have been studing all about the Mayans, Greeks, and Romans. They just started learning about the Dark Ages. I did have them take the Iowa State Test this year, just to see where they were at. They were at the end of 5th grade, but they both placed as 6th graders. The one area they did poorly on was History. The whole test was American History, we haven't gotten there yet.
 
I personally think you need to take care of your own business and leave this family alone.
If I worried about what my neighbors were doing all the time Id never get my own stuff taken care of.
 
My boys have been studing all about the Mayans, Greeks, and Romans. They just started learning about the Dark Ages. I did have them take the Iowa State Test this year, just to see where they were at. They were at the end of 5th grade, but they both placed as 6th graders. The one area they did poorly on was History. The whole test was American History, we haven't gotten there yet.
If your boys have started to learn about the dark ages may I suggest a book called the Time Travellers guide to Medievel England by Ian Mortimer. Instead of the usual history it gives you an insight on how you would go about earning a living, where you would live and what you would eat its a facinating book that I found by accident and even my 15 year old nieces and nephew enjoy it. Here is a link

http://www.amazon.com/Time-Travelle...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1252911596&sr=8-1

The past is a foreign country. This is your guidebook. Imagine you could get into a time machine and travel back to the fourteenth century. What would you see? What would you smell? More to the point, where are you going to stay? Should you go to a castle or a monastic guest house? And what are you going to eat? What sort of food are you going to be offered by a peasant or a monk or a lord? This radical new approach turns our entire understanding of history upside down. It shows us that the past is not just something to be studied; it is also something to be lived. It sets out to explain what life was like in the most immediate way, through taking you, the reader, to the middle ages, and showing you everything from the horrors of leprosy and war to the ridiculous excesses of roasted larks and haute couture.Being a guidebook, many questions are answered which do not normally occur in traditional history books. How do you greet people in the street? What should you use for toilet paper? How fast - and how safely - can you travel? Why might a physician want to taste your blood? And how do you test to see if you are going down with the plague? The result is the most astonishing social history book you are ever likely to read: revolutionary in its concept, informative and entertaining in its detail, and startling for its portrayal of humanity in an age of violence, exuberance and fear.
 
Wow. Such strong feelings here on both sides.

OP, I'd also approach the mom and ask her those questions. You know what? She may have started with good intentions to homeschool and then got overwhelmed by it all. Trying to homeschool 2 must be kinda tough IMO. I am in my second year of homeschooling (a sophomore) and it is a lot of work and a lot fo staying on top of things constantly. Tomorrow I have papers to grade.

So, I gently ask her questions about curriculum, time, etc. and do not be aggressive about it--be very interested (because you are) and gentle, even. I think the saying is that you attract more flies with honey. Same goes for this. :)

I'm very sorry to hear MS has such lax rules about HSing. I think parents need guidelines and accountability while having the freedom to teach their children. Personally, we are successful because DD is very motivated. At this point in the her school year (she's been in for about 7+ weeks so far) she is 4 weeks AHEAD in Chemistry. There is no nagging. She moves a long at her own pace and stays on task or ahead. But not every child is like that. Thinking about the planning, teaching, grading, nagging that may all go along with HSing...I think she could have bitten off more than she could chew and be overwhelmed. Or she might be a parent who doesn't care? :confused3 Where is their father??? Who works? Is anyone home with the kids to make sure they'd stay on task during their day?

Yeah, I think she did bite off more than she can chew. I don't think she has the motivation to keep them going and they don't seem to have much desire to learn either. I don't think it is so much that she doesn't care, but she just has very different views. Its sad to say, but I really believe that if they were boys she would be more interested in their education. I think she wants it to be their responsibility and if they don't do it then its their own fault. I believe in dd taking responsibility for her own actions, but not to let it go to the extent of damaging her future.

Their father works, mom is a sahm. So, she is there with them during the day. She is really just one of those moms that the kids run the show; kwim? Just like, in a pp I mentioned when she picked up the kids from church, being an hour late. She knows that Wed. night activities are over at 7:30, instead of being there at 7:30 she tells the girls to call her. The one time I let dd ride with them, I went back to the church at 8:00; they had still not called her and everyone was leaving the church! Instead of picking them up and listening to them argue, she just lets them stay until they call her regardless of the fact that she may be causing a problem from someone at church. So, now I take them and pick them up.

These girls are very well behaved at my house. We do a lot of together stuff and I think they like that. Dh takes them all fishing in our pond, we watch movies together (and always family movies), just that kind of stuff. I am not sure how much longer these friendships will last because of the difference in activities and such but I have not been given any reason to stop the friendship. Its really the mom I don't get.
 
I personally think you need to take care of your own business and leave this family alone.
If I worried about what my neighbors were doing all the time Id never get my own stuff taken care of.

I don't even know half my neighbors, so believe me I am not concerned what most of them do. Heck, from my house I can't even see my neighbor's houses; they could be running around the yard nude and I wouldn't know it.

These girls are in my home on a constant basis. They are important to my dd and that makes them important to me. Besides, like someone else says "it takes a village to raise a child". I am and will continue to be a part of that village. I am not trying to take this woman's children, nor do I want to invade their privacy. I want to help them.
 

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