Wow....

[ducklite]

A social worker cannot FORCE someone to change their behavior. What do you want her to do? Wave a magic wand and make the person responsible?

It's too bad that our government can't insitute policies to do just that. In some states they have. Workfare--give the recipient who has no reason to not go to work 12-18 months to become self-sufficient, then give them the boot. Sometimes a kick into reality is what a person needs.

Anne

 

[FayeW]

yet again someone twisting what I said. I was not bashing Canadians. I was simply relaying what I had heard from numerous Canadians who I encounter at our Place (which is 1 hour outside Ottawa).

This has absolutly nothing to do with "throwing stones" I was simply stating that free healthcare isn't all that it's cracked out to be.

Do you not agree that your taxes are extremely high? you are paying for the healthcare but in a different way.

I didn't twist anything you said.

You said that "depending on your situation, it may be days or weeks before you see a doctor for something that may be very serious. The 4+ hours sitting in the ER for us would be a gift to some."

I am pointing out that there are other options other than waiting to see your family doctor for a serious illness, and also reminding our readers that one American lady waited so long in the ER that she actually died there. While her husband was on a cell phone with 911 begging them to send another ambulance to the hospital to get her somewhere she would be treated!

So, yeah, waiting just 4 hours might have been a gift for her, too.

Some people throw up the Canadian system as an example of what is going to go wrong if you adopt a universal health care system. It is highly hypocritical to point out the flaws in one system without recognizing your own health care has identical problems!

There are 2 threads going on this topic right now, and you know what I learned? Aside than detractors of UHC being woefully ignorant of how it actually works, I have also learned that there are often excessive wait times and sub standard care in the United States now, and this is for people with insurance. I have also learned that not every specialized treatment or procedure is available in every area or even every state. If someone in Canada has to travel to another province for treatment that is not available in their area it is made out like it is a bad thing, yet it happens every day in the United States. Drives me nuts!

 

[ducklite]

There are federal regulations regarding SSDI, and in fact you aren't even alllowed to recieve a check until 6 months after you have been determined to be disabled.
That's not a state thing, that's the federal law..No exceptions

http://www.ssa.gov/dibplan/dapproval.htm
Good luck even getting your paperwork in 30 days

.. I was told I'd be dead in 18 months...That's what SSDI was told

Maybe it was a state run program and I'm mistaken. I do know that she never went back to work after one of her lungs was removed, and she had some sort of disability payments coming in.

Anne

 

[DISUNC]

Including those who have the duty to do everything possible to take care of themselves before relying on the taxpayers to do it for them. There are far too many who are not doing thier civic duty because they'd rather take the easy road and colelct a check every month for doing nothing. I do my civic duty by already paying taxes in the highest tax bracket, and frankly I'm not willing to pay out another dime.

Of course there are individuals who abuse the system...and get away with it. However I dont think most of these people are living the 'High Life' either. I also think that these are the exception to the rule and not the rule itself.

This country wastes too much money as it is--between sending umpteen billions in aid to umpteen countries, fighting a "war" in Iraq, and porkbarrel spending to fund bridges to no where and "Pig Farming Museums" that no one ever visits. When government can show it's citizens that it is using taxpayer dollars in a prudent, frugal, responsible manner, well at that point there should be more than enough money to help those who truly need help--by giving them a handup, not a handout.

I agree. The problem is that OUR ELECTED officials have been OUT OF CONTROL with our $ for so long with NO accountability. Be careful who you vote for.

But I dont believe we should punish the truly needy, because of the thievery of our elected officials.

 

[JennyMominRI]

Maybe it was a state run program and I'm mistaken. I do know that she never went back to work after one of her lungs was removed, and she had some sort of disability payments coming in.

Anne

I bet it was a state one..Ed was approved for temporary state disability within 30 days of his Aortic Dissection..It lasted 4 months and would have enabled us to at least get the ball rolling for SSDI, if he had needed it.

 

[JennyMominRI]

Maybe it was a state run program and I'm mistaken. I do know that she never went back to work after one of her lungs was removed, and she had some sort of disability payments coming in.

Anne

ETA, She was probably oon state funded disability while she filed for long term disability from the federal government..Since she worked that was/is probably SSDI not SSI

 

[ducklite]

Of course there are individuals who abuse the system...and get away with it. However I dont think most of these people are living the 'High Life' either. I also think that these are the exception to the rule and not the rule itself.



I agree. The problem is that OUR ELECTED officials have been OUT OF CONTROL with our $ for so long with NO accountability. Be careful who you vote for.

But I dont believe we should punish the truly needy, because of the thievery of our elected officials.

Nor do I. But I think there is a very large disparity between truly needy and too lazy to go to work, and the latter far exceed the former in numbers.

Anne

 

[Disney Doll]

Interestly enough I was thinking about this on my way to work this morning.

I don't see at as selfish. I just think people are sick of supporting people who are more than able to support themselves, or should have been able to support themselves, but made poor choices that reaped the consequences they are living. I am quite sure there are people who just plain ran into a pile of bad luck, and legitimately need a hand to get them back on their feet, but I truly think most people bring it on themselves. Now, I understand you may feel otherwise, and if you have reason to believe I'm misinformed or can show me why I'm wrong, I'm all for listening, but here's where I'm coming from:

I don't think people plan ahead, or build a cushion for themselves. They live well beyond their means and when something unexpected happens, they don't have anything to fall back on.

They make conscious choices that cost them money, time, and/or the ability to support themselves. Hey - you live with the consequences of your actions and your choices.

If you choose to have more kids then you can support, that's not my problem. We're trying to become financially comfortable enough to have our own... why should we have to support yours. (Not that I don't feel for the kids, mind you).

If you choose to live beyond your means without a plan for the rainy days, why do you think you can take from my rainy day fund?

If you don't even make an effort to support yourself, why should I have to make an extra effort so I can support you as well as myself.

My brother used to tell my niece a story about three squirrels. Samuel Squirrel worked hard every day gathering nuts for the coming winter. He had a whole tree full of nuts. Each day he would see two other squirrels. One was gathering nuts like he was, and the other was running around, playing and eating the nuts he found, but not storing any away. Then the other working squirrel broke his leg and couldn't gather nuts anymore. Samuel would always share some of his nuts with the squirrel who broke his leg, but really didn't feel the need to share with the careless squirrel.

The point is, there will always be injured squirrels, elderly squirrels, orphaned squirrels and other unfortunate squirrels that need some help. Often communities, families, friends and organizations step in here, but if they need help, I am more than willing to share my "wealth". However, all too often my hard-earned money is being taken from me to support people who just don't see the need to make the choices that will help them to take care of themselves, and I don't feel as if I'm being selfish when I don't want to share with them.

JMHO - thoughts quickly jotted down so hopefully complete and conherent.

Very coherent and I agree.

I have heard that some folks have a very hard time getting SSDI. Yet I also know folks who have gotten it within a couple of months, for what I would consider to be very "shady" diagnoses. Perhaps it is a regional thing? I don't know.

 

[Fitswimmer]

That is what I'd like to see happen. Streamline the government, get rid of the excess waste, fix healthcare with the extra $$.

That's the ideal solution, but we need to start somewhere. It's a sin to me that there are people who work hard every day and can't afford basic healthcare for themselves and their families.

 

[rgf207]

I didn't twist anything you said.

You said that "depending on your situation, it may be days or weeks before you see a doctor for something that may be very serious. The 4+ hours sitting in the ER for us would be a gift to some."

I am pointing out that there are other options other than waiting to see your family doctor for a serious illness, and also reminding our readers that one American lady waited so long in the ER that she actually died there. While her husband was on a cell phone with 911 begging them to send another ambulance to the hospital to get her somewhere she would be treated!

So, yeah, waiting just 4 hours might have been a gift for her, too.

Some people throw up the Canadian system as an example of what is going to go wrong if you adopt a universal health care system. It is highly hypocritical to point out the flaws in one system without recognizing your own health care has identical problems!

There are 2 threads going on this topic right now, and you know what I learned? Aside than detractors of UHC being woefully ignorant of how it actually works, I have also learned that there are often excessive wait times and sub standard care in the United States now, and this is for people with insurance. I have also learned that not every specialized treatment or procedure is available in every area or even every state. If someone in Canada has to travel to another province for treatment that is not available in their area it is made out like it is a bad thing, yet it happens every day in the United States. Drives me nuts!

I agree that the US healthcare is flawed mainly because of the sole purpose of insurance companies is profit. That I do not disagree with.

What I do disagree with is that my/our taxes should go up to help others again. I pay high taxes now and I do not want to pay even higher taxes just so certain (not all) people can abuse the system even more.

5 years down the road we will be in the same situation where we can raise taxes to help the less fortunate and give more money to the people that abuse the system.

I have very good healthcare because my wife is a teacher and I am very greatful for that.

there are a lot of things that need to be addressed before even considering changing the healthcare benefits. Malpractice lawsuits for one. There are lawyers advertising on TV now saying "You can sue if you child has cerebral palsey." This is a huge reason why healthcare is so expesive. The malpractice insurance is outrageously expensive and that cost gets passed directly to the patients. I would never want to be a doctor because I could be sued so many times just because people are greedy.

 

[FayeW]

Funny. I haven’t met one Canadian who liked it. In fact, any one who can afford it goes to the United States for health care. And do you know how many Canadians have died while on waiting lists for critical operations?

No. Do you know how many uninsured Americans died in emergency rooms waiting for treatment?

For that matter, do you know how many Americans died while on waiting lists for critical care operations?

I don't know a single Canadian who travelled to the US for medical treatment, and I live less than an hour from the border. I did however read an article yesterday that one of our former MP's chose to have part of her breast reconstruction surgery in California.

Hello, my name is FayeW. Pleased to meet you.

 

[hydster]

And there are far too many who ARE doing their civic duty by paying taxes, working full time and who still cannot afford good healthcare.

It's really not as black and white as you make it seem.

My DH was in line to be laid off thanks to his company moving jobs to India. We had to scramble to find another job or face unemployment and all that comes with that. DH found a job as an IT contractor through a technical employment agency. We have no health care as a result because he is a contractor and not really "employed" by either company exclusively. We make over 100K a year, pay our taxes, pay our bills and yet still cannot get good health care.

We are in a huge quandary on what to do now because this contract is for 6-12 months and we will have to switch jobs yet again when his contract is up and until we can find a permanent job that supplies health care we are on our own. We are looking at health care plans for short term but until we can find one that works for our situation we are uninsured.

So while we are paying taxes and doing our "civic duty" as well as any one of you sitting on your morally superior pedestal preaching to us "low life" we still don't have anything that resembles decent health insurance.

We do have savings that can be used if one of us gets sick or needs a doctor but god forbid something big happens until we CAN get insurance!

It really isn't all that black and white......there is a lot of gray and personally I wish my taxes that were funding this stupid *** war in Iraq were helping ME and MY family instead of rebuilding a nation we helped rip apart for nothing except to satisfy a power hungry politician who wants to take over the world one country at a time.

Go ahead and rake me over the coals all you want but for some of us this IS our reality.

 

[Tyler's Dad]

Nor do I. But I think there is a very large disparity between truly needy and too lazy to go to work, and the latter far exceed the former in numbers.

Anne

You honestly think the number of people abusing the system far exceeds the number of people that need the system? Do you know how much welfare pays? Do you really think people would chose to live off that more often than trying not to? Are there abusers, you bet? Are there more abusers than people who just are in a never ending cycle, no way? You make it sound like a 25 year old single mother, with only a high school diploma can just up and find a $35,000 a year job. It's not that easy. People don't want to be poor.

 

[Crankyshank]

And there are far too many who ARE doing their civic duty by paying taxes, working full time and who still cannot afford good healthcare.

It's really not as black and white as you make it seem.

Abolutely. I am all for helping people who need a hand up. I have seen the system work really well for people. I have also seen a ton of waste and abuse. However, it has become increasingly apparent to me that the number of working poor has increased in size and need. I certainly don't want my taxes going up more to help to fund more government waste or I'm going to wind up one of those poor people working their butts off but don't qualify for any assistance. I'm sorry but in a lot of cases I feel sorrier for those people than those who do qualify for aid

 

[DISUNC]

Some people throw up the Canadian system as an example of what is going to go wrong if you adopt a universal health care system. It is highly hypocritical to point out the flaws in one system without recognizing your own health care has identical problems!
!

But is is SO easy for people to do!!!! The logic people use against UHC in the USA astounds me. Grownup educated people talking complete nonsense.


I still would love someone to answer me as to why IT WORKS in every other Industrilzed nation, quite successfully. Yet they dont think it will work here

The PROOf is there, yet they want to argue!

This country is in a chokehold because of the Health care crisis here. The ramifications of this issue is astounding. Most all USA companies no longer offer Retirement benifits, and many other benefits have been taking away, including pay raises that keep above the COL. People are sick and not being taken care of....etc (there are 100's of BAD things happening tied directly to the Health Care crisis in the US)

The 'wheel' was invented, and it works...stop blabbering about reinventing it, and lets start using them here.

 

[CEDmom]

Are we, as Americans, that selfish that we don't want our taxes to go up slightly to help the less fortunate?

I'm just shaking my head at how selfish we seem to be as a whole. (Not pointing to any individual poster.)

I've been the one receiving Medicaid, getting EITC, even got food stamps briefly. Fortunately I'm no longer in that situation anymore. However, I have NO problem with my taxes going to social programs to help the less fortunate. Sure there are going ot be people that abuse the system, but should all less fortunate suffer b/c of a few bad apples.

I'm truely perplexed at how selfish we have become, or maybe always have been.

I'm rambling....anyway

I really don't get why you're calling people selfish because they don't want their taxes increased . Honestly, who wants that? DH and I already pay plenty and if things were managed more efficiently there would be enough for all kinds of programs. The answer isn't throwing more $$ into the pot - it's cleaning up the greed and corruption. I think it's pretty naive to think a tax increase is really going to help people w/o insurance etc. - that extra money will just go into someone's pocket.

 

[Christine]

I really don't get why you're calling people selfish because they don't want their taxes increased . Honestly, who wants that?

No one wants their taxes raised. If I can speak for the OP of this thread, I think the selfishness comment came from a few things said on the other thread. Taxes raised weren't even mentioned (although I'm sure they are thought of). Some posters on that thread had/have EXCELLENT health insurance at a very low cost to them. They are extremely happy with that insurance and do not want it to change (who can blame them). It came across as if they didn't want to help others if it bothered their little luxury.

The discussion at that point hadn't even gone into taxes or increases. Also, the discussion was about making insurance better and more affordable for those people who may already have insurance but it's crappy. No one seemed to want to sacrifice for that either.

 

[DISUNC]

Go ahead and rake me over the coals all you want but for some of us this IS our reality.

Your story is THE NORMAL for this country. There are many more of YOU than all these wonderful tax paying HARD workers.

I have news for those Upstanding Tax paying HARD workers....Within a snap of a finger "POOF", (because some CEO wants a higher 1% profit increase this quarter so he can get his 4 million dollar bonus)....Tommorrow you can have it ALL taken away from you...and nuttin you can do about it!

 

[ducklite]

You honestly think the number of people abusing the system far exceeds the number of people that need the system? Do you know how much welfare pays? Do you really think people would chose to live off that more often than trying not to? Are there abusers, you bet? Are there more abusers than people who just are in a never ending cycle, no way? You make it sound like a 25 year old single mother, with only a high school diploma can just up and find a $35,000 a year job. It's not that easy. People don't want to be poor.

That 25 year old single mother who is living in section 8 housing and getting food stamps has no reason to not work for $8 an hour at McDonalds. Her childcare will also be subsidized. She might not be any better off financially, but she's not going to be worse off. She'll be paying into the system and as long as she works hard she'll ahve a very big chance to become a member of management.

BTW--I was a 26 year old single mom without a college degree. I got no child support, and I worked two jobs to make ends meet. I never asked for or took a dime of government or charity money. I have several acquaintances who are my age and had their children at about the same point in time who chose to take the easy route and sit home collecting welfare--even after thier kids were in school full time and even after the state paid for more than one job training program for them. While I was making $35 too much a year to qualify for an EIC, they were watching soap operas, sleeping late, and living pretty comfortable lives.

Anne

 

[PghLybrt]

I have a question for those of you against paying for every citizen to receive health care.

I can assume then that you are not going to accept your social security check when the time comes (or if it already has) because you did not pay that entire amount that went into it.

In fact younger Americans will be footing the bill for it, and why should they have to make up the difference?