Work Vacation issue. WWYD?

[NHdisneylover]

(Not picking on this poster specifically, it was just a good description to start from.)

I still think it's a broken system. You wait years and years to finally get something...only when you don't need it anymore? (For example, you finally get school vacation week once your kids are out of school, or Christmas morning after they don't believe in Santa anymore.) There has to be a better system!

And please nobody jump on me for saying parents should always get their way, and nobody else's family members count! That's not what I mean. I just lean toward taking turns on a short-term scale rather than in huge chunks, and negotiating around individual conditions rather than just picking something that sounds fair but might not fit the actual, changing make-up of a particular workplace.

I sort of see this point, it worked that way with my parents. my dad was a career DJ. He worked every Christmas morning from teh time I was a baby until I was in junior high--at that point he got first choice of which of the big three (Thanksgiving, Christmas or New Years) to take off. Since i was older then and some of hte others had young kids, he took Thanksgiving--leaving Christmas for those with little ones and NY for the single peopel who would like to party the night before. But not everyone is that considerate---or thy might have other reasons (like everyone has young kids, or they have young grandkids they want to spend time with, or want to travel home for the holidays or whatever).

Likewise, my mom worked for the phone company and they had the same seniority system described by the OP. My mom got Spring Break week off once, when I was in grade 8 or 10. That's it. My parents pulled me out of school for 1-2 weeks yearly otherwise so we could vacation and visit family in another state. Not hte best solution, but it was that or never visit my grandparents, aunts, uncles, and cousins.
Many of her corworkers waited to have kids until they were 10 or so years into their careers--which meant they could generally get at least one week that worked with their kids' schedules and many of the new hires had no kids so that was not an issue for them at the time.

Unless the work enviornment does not need any particular number of people working at any given time (so everyone could take off mroe or less at the same time if wanted), there will never be a system that is totally fair and ideal for all---I don't think teh seniority system is better or worse than others, just different

 

[sweetpeama]

My DH went back to work after being on vacation last night and already has 2 of his weeks for next year scheduled. I am sure that there are those who are going to say that it's not fair that he got both the week that includes the 4th off ( his take a week in the summer every 3rd year so we can attend family reunion) and the week that includes Christmas Eve and Christmas Day returning to work in NYE-not a big deal as it means I have the perfect excuse to skip out on the loud everybody trying to talk over each other at full volume let's play cards and board games get together where except for MIL and 1 SIL I am basically ignored unless it's one of your kids is doing this usually after they have passed DH or even worse they come from another level of the house we are at and DH was not only on that level but often in the same room and was already handling it. The kids and I can get some things to snack on and stay home and watch a bunch of movies including Disney ones just like we have done for 2007-2009, and 2012-2014. (DH started in 2006 and they moved to an earlier start that year so they would be off but due to needing to drive out of state for a funeral ( we didn't go with a child under 2 at the time) the family didn't have the annual noisy gathering. ( Trust me after the noise that was Christmas I want to skip it. Someone decided to play this game where there is a bigger prize in the center and a bunch of little prizes wrapped in saran wrap around it you get to try and unwrap while the next person rolls until they get doubles. Some how the most childish people ended up with the blasted whistles so we added that to the yelling. My one SIL took out her hearing aids and I was plugging my ears it was so loud-hello we are all in the same room and it is a normal front sitting room in a normal size house. I want to be able to watch the Disney Parks Blog NYE fireworks in peace and quiet not with people who have no volume control around. No they are not drunk as if there is any drinks it's 1-2 bottles of wine for 8-10 of them to last all night. Just a number of them don't have what you might call an indoor voice.

 

[Sagginit]

In this scenario I would take the week if that is what worked for me. I worked in retail and customer service for years, it is a very dog eat dog world with days off due to needing staff 7 days a week in those locations with lots of black out times. Most places I worked did first come first serve for the entry level/sales associate/ phone agent group. Management had to cover with restrictions so they did first come first serve but also worked it out amongst themselves to try to be fair (out of my 3 weeks a year I typically only picked one months ahead of time and then the other 2 I took as staycations during random weeks that were leftovers). This meant if you started past June/July you were not getting good weeks as the employees who had been there when requests started being taken had already taken the good weeks. If you wanted the job you just had to accept what was left over, in this lady's case it is a terrible position to be in but such is life. Most likely if the wedding is on a weekend she could see if she could negotiate just a 3 day weekend and then fly in and out around the actual day.

I had a situation where I had a destination wedding (8 hour drive each way, no flights really due to location hours outside major cities) in the middle of December and my husband (then finace) was the best man. They would not make an exception for me to have one vacation day so I had to instead have my days off Sat, Sun, Mon and then work Tues-Sat and then Mon-Fri of the next week (so worked 11 out of 12 days!). The really annoying thing is I don't have much to do on Sat as my position is Mon-Fri but they didn't want anyone else using me as an example to request a day off during blackouts so I had to not actually use a vacation day. This lady will just need to make it work if she doesn't get that week off.

 

[tvguy]

In IT, that's is very poor planning.... possible grounds for termination.

I do not know the reason in this specific case. I'm sure IT suggested it. Whether or local management, or corporate didn't think it was a priority, I don't know. Not IT's fault if corporate says now. And so far, I don't know of a way to fire corporate.
Several years back my Department Head got a chewing out because we did not have a piece of software we needed. It was a $30,000 piece of software, so needed corporate approval as a capital expense. My boss calmly replied. " It was my number one budget request the last three years, and the first thing corporate cut in each of those years". In that case, we had the software a week after the chewing out.

 

[Pacolovestacos]

I still prefer the first come, first serve model, and I haven't really seen any reasons against it. It allows people who love to plan way in advance to do so. And it allows those who prefer to be spontaneous to do so as well. The people who prefer spontaneous trips will be able to see the calendar and simply pick spontaneous trips that float their boat.

I'm a massive planner, sometimes planning 12-14 months in advance. Some people like that kind of planning, others despise it. Point is that with the first come, first serve model, everyone should be able to travel how they wish.

 

[mom2rtk]

I still prefer the first come, first serve model, and I haven't really seen any reasons against it.

Someone earlier in the thread commented on the issues that come with the "first come, first served" model. It creates a lot of crazy jockeying for front of the line when the time comes.

 

[wide awake]

I haven't read all of the posts, but from the initial post feel that the OP should take the week that works for her. I worked for Sac PD for years, and believe me, vacations were seniority based. No one would have gotten away w/ the emotional blackmail business that OP's co-worker is using. IF...and that is in caps for a reason, the co-worker is a GREAT team player...from some of the posts I'm thinking that is a "no"...than perhaps someone may switch weeks with her. One year one of my co-workers gave me Christmas Day...she didn't have her kids that holiday so it wasn't a big deal to her, but still, huge to me. I've always been grateful to her. Also, I'd covered her behind numerous times during the year. You get what you give.

 

[scrapquitler]

The system isn't broken, it just doesn't exist. I've been working for over 40 years and I have never seen a fair vacation system. Any vacation system that has restrictions will prevent someone from getting time off they want or need.
The school vacation argument has always amused me. The average American worker gets 2 weeks vacation. The average public school is out of session 16 weeks a year. I have never been able to get my arms around a co-worker says they can't get time off when their kids our out of school with so many weeks open as options.
And this isn't even a first world problem, 23% of American workers get no paid vacation.

We have 10 full weeks a year off in our school district: 8 weeks in the summer (and if there are a lot of snow days, sometimes it's 7 1/2), and one full week at Christmas and one in the spring (not necessarily near Easter). The rest of our 'time off' is single days. Thanksgiving is not a full week off: we have Thursday and Friday only.

 

[sam_gordon]

Someone earlier in the thread commented on the issues that come with the "first come, first served" model. It creates a lot of crazy jockeying for front of the line when the time comes.

Actually that's an assumption. I've worked for three departments in the 25 years I've been at my employer. All three use "First come, first served", and there's no crazy jockeying for the front of the line. If I had two employees request the same time off at the same time, I'd go to seniority.

 

[tvguy]

We have 10 full weeks a year off in our school district: 8 weeks in the summer (and if there are a lot of snow days, sometimes it's 7 1/2), and one full week at Christmas and one in the spring (not necessarily near Easter). The rest of our 'time off' is single days. Thanksgiving is not a full week off: we have Thursday and Friday only.

Christmas has always been 2 weeks here, okay, always as in back to 1962 when I started school. Some districts take 3 weeks now. Those are districts with heavy enrollment of people with family in Mexico. Apparently they were having issues with students not coming back from holiday trips to Mexico on time.
Thanksgiving when I was a kid was 2 days, it has been a full week, just like President's day week for about 15 years now.

 

[Pacolovestacos]

Someone earlier in the thread commented on the issues that come with the "first come, first served" model. It creates a lot of crazy jockeying for front of the line when the time comes.

There is no front of the line though, that's kind of the point. When you're ready to reserve your spot, you just send me an email and it's in the calendar. If you want to reserve some days 5 years in advance, that's up to you. If you want to do it 30 days in advance, fine. People have different preferences for how to vacation. Not everyone is a huge planner.

 

[Pacolovestacos]

Actually that's an assumption. I've worked for three departments in the 25 years I've been at my employer. All three use "First come, first served", and there's no crazy jockeying for the front of the line. If I had two employees request the same time off at the same time, I'd go to seniority.

It's technically impossible to request the same time off at the same time unless 2 employees are racing through the office and burst into your cubicle while simultaneously verbally communicating their vacation dates. Seems unlikely and as a former manager, I'd be more concerned about their mental stability at that point rather than trying to figure out who gets which week.

More than likely, they send you an email requesting dates. Person A sends email at 12pm and Person B sends email at 12:01pm. Person A gets the vacation. Not that complicated.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

It's technically impossible to request the same time off at the same time unless 2 employees are racing through the office and burst into your cubicle while simultaneously verbally communicating their vacation dates. Seems unlikely and as a former manager, I'd be more concerned about their mental stability at that point rather than trying to figure out who gets which week.

More than likely, they send you an email requesting dates. Person A sends email at 12pm and Person B sends email at 12:01pm. Person A gets the vacation. Not that complicated.

But even that may not be fair all the time. Couldn't an employee just ask off for multiple holiday weeks for example and just do it in advance? Wouldn't that make it unfair for any other employee that didn't have the chance?-basing off your response to mom2rtk regarding preferences to requesting vacation (some like to plan well in advance others not so much like you were saying).

I'm meaning it in the context of your example. So if Person A sent an email at 12pm and said I want Memorial Day, July 4th, Labor Day, Thanksgiving, Christmas, New Years Eve, etc off would that be fair for Person B who sent an e-mail at 12:01 pm but just wanted say Memorial Day and Labor Day off...just using examples here. Technically Person A would get all those days off because they asked first but Person B would miss out because of that.

I think if you put limitations to a "first come, first serve" type it could work but basically like many have pointed out no system is completely fair.

 

[KBoopaloo]

There is no front of the line though, that's kind of the point. When you're ready to reserve your spot, you just send me an email and it's in the calendar. If you want to reserve some days 5 years in advance, that's up to you. If you want to do it 30 days in advance, fine. People have different preferences for how to vacation. Not everyone is a huge planner.

I used to work in an office where there was indeed crazy jockeying for the "front of the line." There was one woman who would submit her vacation requests (which were always the big ones that everyone wants - day after Thanksgiving, Christmas Eve, day after Christmas, basically anytime around a holiday) at the exact moment it was allowed. The rule was generally that requests could not be made more than a year in advance and she would be emailing at midnight a year out on Thanksgiving night to get her request in for the following year. It was also an office where people had to cover for each other and more than one person could not be out around a holiday so if she requested it at midnight that was it. No one else could have it off. Her intensity about it forced everyone else in the department to become equally crazy about it and start submitting requests at the stroke of midnight and the department manager was coming in to 5 or 6 emails sent in the middle of the night on major holidays for vacation days the following year. It ultimately led to them having to change the way they let people request vacation because it was coming down to whether someone had emailed at 12:01 or 12:02 on Thanksgiving night to get the day after off the following year. It caused a lot of tension and stress in the department. The first come first serve policy had not really been a problem until this particular employee arrived but she changed the whole culture.

 

[Pacolovestacos]

But even that may not be fair all the time. Couldn't an employee just ask off for multiple holiday weeks for example and just do it in advance? Wouldn't that make it unfair for any other employee that didn't have the chance?-basing off your response to mom2rtk regarding preferences to requesting vacation (some like to plan well in advance others not so much like you were saying).

I'm meaning it in the context of your example. So if Person A sent an email at 12pm and said I want Memorial Day, July 4th, Labor Day, Thanksgiving, Christmas, New Years Eve, etc off would that be fair for Person B who sent an e-mail at 12:01 pm but just wanted say Memorial Day and Labor Day off...just using examples here. Technically Person A would get all those days off because they asked first but Person B would miss out because of that.

I think if you put limitations to a "first come, first serve" type it could work but basically like many have pointed out no system is completely fair.

But the other employees did have a chance right? If John Q likes to take spontaneous trips, then he can take them according to the available dates on the calendar. Obviously people know that holidays will likely be taken so if you wait, those dates will be gone, but that doesn't mean that John Q didn't have the opportunity. They simply decided not to.

As for your hypothetical example, in all the years of managing, I've never seen someone request Memorial Day, July 4, Labor Day, Turkey Day, Xmas, and New Years Eve. Not once. And if I did, I would use my managerial discretion and tell them to check with their colleagues in their specific division to make sure nobody else wants those days off. And if someone did, I would tell them to work it out fairly and get back to me on who gets what days.

 

[Pacolovestacos]

I used to work in an office where there was indeed crazy jockeying for the "front of the line." There was one woman who would submit her vacation requests (which were always the big ones that everyone wants - day after Thanksgiving, Christmas Eve, day after Christmas, basically anytime around a holiday) at the exact moment it was allowed. The rule was generally that requests could not be made more than a year in advance and she would be emailing at midnight a year out on Thanksgiving night to get her request in for the following year. It was also an office where people had to cover for each other and more than one person could not be out around a holiday so if she requested it at midnight that was it. No one else could have it off. Her intensity about it forced everyone else in the department to become equally crazy about it and start submitting requests at the stroke of midnight and the department manager was coming in to 5 or 6 emails sent in the middle of the night on major holidays for vacation days the following year. It ultimately led to them having to change the way they let people request vacation because it was coming down to whether someone had emailed at 12:01 or 12:02 on Thanksgiving night to get the day after off the following year. It caused a lot of tension and stress in the department. The first come first serve policy had not really been a problem until this particular employee arrived but she changed the whole culture.

So if I was the manager in charge of that process, I would tell her that since she got the holiday the previous year, she couldn't have it this year. And then the next person who emailed about it, gets it.

Again, I think people are overthinking this. It's not that hard.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

As for your hypothetical example, in all the years of managing, I've never seen someone request Memorial Day, July 4, Labor Day, Turkey Day, Xmas, and New Years Eve. Not once. And if I did, I would use my managerial discretion and tell them to check with their colleagues in their specific division to make sure nobody else wants those days off. And if someone did, I would tell them to work it out fairly and get back to me on who gets what days.

I was using that as an example;obviously an overexaggeration to get my point across.

But then you're not really using a "first come first serve" process. You're telling the employees to work it out themselves should it arise that more than one person wants the same time off. That's not how "first come first serve" works. In your scenario Person A has the priority no matter what and should automatically get those days after all they asked first. Why should then that Person A have to work it out with Person B to come to an agreement if the "first come first serve" was in play. I also wouldn't think it's fair, as I pointed out in my first comment to the OP on this thread a page or two back, to have employees guilt trip so to speak other employees for time off. If a person asked off for specific time in a "first come first serve" system why should they then feel like they have to negotiate with another employee. I was pointing out that "first come first serve" way of doing it isn't always fair..for either side that is.

But the other employees did have a chance right? If John Q likes to take spontaneous trips, then he can take them according to the available dates on the calendar. Obviously people know that holidays will likely be taken so if you wait, those dates will be gone, but that doesn't mean that John Q didn't have the opportunity. They simply decided not to.

That part is going to depend on employees themselves and the actual work environment. You also mentioned if an employee wanted to ask off for time 5 years in advance they could. I'm not entirely certain you got my point though.

 

[Pacolovestacos]

I was using that as an example;obviously an overexaggeration to get my point across.

But then you're not really using a "first come first serve" process. You're telling the employees to work it out themselves should it arise that more than one person wants the same time off. That's not how "first come first serve" works. In your scenario Person A has the priority no matter what and should automatically get those days after all they asked first. Why should then that Person A have to work it out with Person B to come to an agreement if the "first come first serve" was in play. I also wouldn't think it's fair, as I pointed out in my first comment to the OP on this thread a page or two back, to have employees guilt trip so to speak other employees for time off. If a person asked off for specific time in a "first come first serve" system why should they then feel like they have to negotiate with another employee. I was pointing out that "first come first serve" way of doing it isn't always fair..for either side that is.

People don't get to abuse the system. If someone sends me an email on Jan 1, 2017, asking for time off around Memorial Day, July 4th, Labor Day, Columbus Day, Thanksgiving, Christmas, and New Years, they are abusing the system. And I would obviously block it. Just because the general principle is first come, first serve, doesn't mean it has to be adhered to if someone is abusing it, which the hypothetical person clearly is doing.

That should make sense. It doesn't mean the system isn't first come, first serve. It is. But you need to be rational about it. If someone wants to request the first 2 weeks of June a couple years in advance, that's fine. Requesting all the holidays 2 years in advance is not fine.

Again though, I've never had this happen. And I've worked at 5 or so companies, in different divisions, with people of all genders, races, and ages. And nobody has acted like this. I'm sure everyone has an example of a bad apple but if their manager is deserving of the title "manager," they should be able to deal with it easily.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

People don't get to abuse the system. If someone sends me an email on Jan 1, 2017, asking for time off around Memorial Day, July 4th, Labor Day, Columbus Day, Thanksgiving, Christmas, and New Years, they are abusing the system. And I would obviously block it. Just because the general principle is first come, first serve, doesn't mean it has to be adhered to if someone is abusing it, which the hypothetical person clearly is doing.

That should make sense. It doesn't mean the system isn't first come, first serve. It is. But you need to be rational about it. If someone wants to request the first 2 weeks of June a couple years in advance, that's fine. Requesting all the holidays 2 years in advance is not fine.

That was my whole point. You still have to have limitations set. The way you originally put it, or at least the way I took it, was Person A asked first so Person A gets it. I highly doubt that many companies utilize a pure first come first serve system (meaning Person A always gets what they asked for no questions asked even regarding what days they want off for because they asked first). It's likely that there are still limitations to how it is used and how the time off can be asked off for which sorta blur the first come first serve system with other factors that come into play.

 

[Pacolovestacos]

Right I agree with you on that but I assumed we were dealing with rational employees, lol.