Why the Middle class is not being out priced, the Washington Post article is one sided at best.

[stitchfan75]

If a middle class family is expecting to have the experience the writer outlined in his article, then yes, the middle class has been out priced. I think one trip to the budget board on here will show you that it's not true. People are resourceful and can find ways to get there, for them it might be a room at a value resort "hotel camping" and making their own food. There is nothing wrong with that. Others may stay off site at the Ramada. We were the "working poor" for a long time and never would have dreamed of going to Disney World because of the thought "there is no way we can afford it". Between different levels of resorts and the fact they allow you to book so far in advance and pay payments, really anyone can go to Disney World.
That is the great thing about Disney in general, they at least try to give families of all incomes options to enjoy the parks.

 

[minnie-apple-mouse]

We wouldn't be able to go nearly as often without my mother and her ultra generous attitude towards her DVC points. Trips wouldn't be every year and when we did go we would most likely stay offsite.

We need more moms/people like yours-love it.

Trying to simply make the price low enough for everyone to visit, while noble is an unrealistic solution IMO.

 

[minnie-apple-mouse]

If a middle class family is expecting to have the experience the writer outlined in his article, then yes, the middle class has been out priced. I think one trip to the budget board on here will show you that it's not true. People are resourceful and can find ways to get there, for them it might be a room at a value resort "hotel camping" and making their own food. There is nothing wrong with that. Others may stay off site at the Ramada. We were the "working poor" for a long time and never would have dreamed of going to Disney World because of the thought "there is no way we can afford it". Between different levels of resorts and the fact they allow you to book so far in advance and pay payments, really anyone can go to Disney World.
That is the great thing about Disney in general, they at least try to give families of all incomes options to enjoy the parks.

Great response.

 

[oddman]

Your entitled to our opinion. However just because it cost more then 20 years ago, does NOT means Disney is pricing WDW vacation out of the reach of the Middle class. All things cost more these days, especially, entertainment. When you can still get a discounted value room resort for $87.00 a night easily in the range of the middle class.

Yes ticket prices have goone up.......just like other parks......yet so has the attractions and shows increased.

Uni is slowly and quietly matching a lot of WDW pricing..........been to a concert?,...hundreds for 2 or 3 hours of show???.......Ball game????....last I saw was $110 per person, not including transportation.....movies....with snacks, parking etc...$25.00 +, for 2 .5 hours.

The article was written with facts all leaning to side with the intention to prove his opinion, He used the $115.00 steak , which was for 2 and ignored the other food prices at TS and CS items......ignored you can get a value resort room discounted to $87.00 last summer Add all the things that WDW provide free, where can a family go and ride all the Transportation free.....Monorails, buses, boats, visit the amazing resorts, watch fireworks every night, join in to the campfire sing-alongs, watch the evening lake light parade, etc.etc.etc.... ......just examples that the author was wrong.

Yes I am a Disney fan, yet I will Also complain when they screw up just like most Disney fans here. What I will not do is suport a poor researched and written article whose main intention was just to knock Disney. If anyone feels WDW is to expensive, they need not go to WDW. However if a middle class family wants to go, there are indeed ways and means for them to afford to go and have a magical vacation and enjoy the pixie dust just like any other people. A WDW vacation cannot be found anywhere else in the world, its that special.

AKK

Forget the story in the paper, you have been shown the math and are simply sticking your head in the sand and declaring it to be untrue.

The math is super duper clear.


Disney costs twice as much to walk in the door than it has on average over the last 30 odd years.
middle class income over the last 30 years has declined.
disposable middle class income has declined even more.

so without any more discussion it is perfectly clear that by any metric it costs more to visit Disney for middle class income households than it did in the 70s , 80s, 90s,



A larger percentage of Middle class disposable income is required to purchase admittance .


now if you want to argue over the definition of affordability sure. But we can be completely sure that Disney is LESS affordable than it was twenty odd years ago.

Middle class vacationers have to save longer and harder than they did at almost any other time over the last 30 years to have a Disney trip.

(if you don't believe me, take the time to do the math, everything from the history of ticket prices to inflation, middle class wages, and a bunch of tools is sitting on the interwebs waiting for you to check them out)

 

[sheetz]

^Um, oddman, you misattributed that quote to me. I actually agree with you.

 

[oddman]

^Um, oddman, you misattributed that quote to me. I actually agree with you.

sorry , I am multitasking and I am very very bad at it.

I end up replying to the wrong posts, posting rambling thoughts and generally being an as.

If I come over as rude, it is almost never intended that way, I just spend much more type typing curt business junk, than discussing fun stuff like Disney

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Even if I completely, wholeheartedly agreed with the counterpoint...

I don't think I could think so little of myself to write a counterpoint defending an entertainment behemoth who believes in minimum wage for the majority of its workforce.

Call me "unimaginative" if you must...

 

[Donald Duck888]

Just my 2 cents on this....

First i think it is pretty well a given that Disney has increased prices over the last several years and that along with the fact that wages are stagnant has effected the affordability of the Disney experience.

But it is not truly fair to look at Disney in a vacuum and not look at all else around it that has also seen significant growth in cost vs income for the "average" family. How about food prices? They have been going up like crazy (at least around here). The original article compared Disney of today to the Disney of the 1970's so how about the price of a car? I laugh when i watch game show reruns (on the cable TV service that also has seen huge increases in price) and the "retail value" of the car they are giving away is like 4K. Now that same type of car would be 20k+. How about medical costs? How about heating oil, back in 2001 I paid 89 cents per gallon for heating oil, this past season it was like $2.80 and a couple years ago it was over $4.00 a gallon . Bring it back to vacation related costs, I live in the northeast and the cost to go skiing are just crazy, i remember going skiing for 20 bucks a day (back in the 1990's) try tripling that at least now and that is just for the skiing, add on the cost to stay a weekend skiing and it is pretty expensive. The cost of everything is going up and the middle class is being squeezed from all directions.

The point i am trying to make is that Disney is no different than anything else really. They have costs associated with doing business that all have also increased over time and yes they make profits. to me a better indicator would be to look at what their profit margins are as that would show if they are truly "padding their pockets".

So to sum up my opinion (and I am not an economist) i think there are larger forces at work here then just Disney making more profit or trying to target a higher income level audience. I think things are just plain getting tougher for the middle class in general. due to many things caused by many factors both in the public (fed policy, regulations, taxation etc.) and private (crony capitalism, oligopolies etc.) sectors of our economy. The ability to afford a Disney vacation is just one symptom amongst many of this much larger problem.

I do have one economic beef with Disney though. The price they charge for their in park ponchos, now that is price gouging if you ask me.

 

[Stinky Sullivan]

The fact that people have to go into serious debt to go on Vacation is clear indicator that going to places like WDW is becoming out of reach for the average family. Its not all Disney's fault entirely, even though they are gouging and acting like they have a monopoly as of late. You have to look no further then the government for the devaluation of our dollar and for perfecting the art of cronyism which is leading to a lack of higher paying jobs, production, and competition in the private sector.

 

[Tonka's Skipper]

Every company is marketing there product for maximum return. Disney offers so much in wdw, much of it free, it may appear to other items are priced to high. Yet the public seems very willing to pay the price.

AKK

 

[Planogirl]

What is free at WDW? Resort hopping? Transportation? Hmmmm...

I agree with those who say that all prices are going up however many of those more expensive items are necessities. WDW is not a necessity and should be one of those first items cut when people are trying to make ends meet. At least I think so.

 

[minnie-apple-mouse]

What is free at WDW? Resort hopping? Transportation? Hmmmm...

HAHa agreed-best to stay with "no additional charge" IMO.

 

[Josh Hendy]

The point i am trying to make is that Disney is no different than anything else really. They have costs associated with doing business that all have also increased over time and yes they make profits [...] i think there are larger forces at work here then just Disney making more profit or trying to target a higher income level audience. I think things are just plain getting tougher for the middle class in general. due to many things caused by many factors both in the public (fed policy, regulations, taxation etc.) and private (crony capitalism, oligopolies etc.)

I agree with just about all of this. I would like to point out however that the problem with crony capitalism and oligopolies is also a symptom of public policy. It only becomes worthwhile for businesses to associate as cronies and combine into oligopolies when there is the strong hand of government trade, tax and subsidy rules distorting the marketplace and discouraging innovation and price competition. Consumers in other words are forced by government policy to do business with the cronies and oligarchs (for example banks, health care and drug companies, media companies) to the point where any new company that tries to compete on price and service outside of the oligarchy has no chance.

The very worst of all of the distortions imposed on people by their governments is monetary policy. Leaving aside all of the other negative effects on working-class and middle-class people's lives, the particular way that credit is created and allocated in the USA is I believe the reason for the frustrating policies of Disney Corp. with respect to WDW. I believe that it's much easier for Disney to borrow money earmarked for condo development than it is to borrow or use cash for theme park infrastructure. Probably the interest rates are a lot cheaper, and it's easier to insure or hedge (by selling off the risk, e.g. to government agencies like Fannie and Freddie). Whereas money to build new rides and new parks is more expensive, and is seen as more risky for when the next crash inevitably happens. Given these present and future circumstances, Disney is more-or-less forced (in the USA) to (a) develop as much 'housing' as possible, (b) minimize all other cap-ex, (c) maintain profits by squeezing as much as possible out of existing customers.

There is only 1 reason why they can get away with (c). It's pixie dust, meaning the warm associations that people have with past and present Disney movies, and also the nostalgia that adults have for the WDW trips they took as youngsters. Universal, SeaWorld and Busch don't have pixie dust and they're not big enough to go into the condo development business, so they have to build new lands and attractions all the time.

 

[ArwenMarie]

I think the airfare is something that all of these articles are leaving out. If you can drive there, WDW is a regional destination for you. Totally different story than a family who has to fly in.

The park tickets are expensive, no doubt. Really expensive.

But everything else is adjustable based on your budget. Orlando is overloaded with great offsite rentals that are reasonable. Food costs are adjustable too.

The people I know who can't afford to go to WDW can't afford to take any vacation right now. Vacations are a luxury and the first thing to go when money is tight. And that's ok, you can live without vacations.

 

[larandtra1990]

Every park these days is expensive. Every vacation is expensive. It comes down to value for the price and what your preferences are. Can WDW be done "reasonably"? Absolutely. Just as reasonable as a cruise or a 5 day vacay to the islands or to Vegas, DC, New York, etc. If you cant afford on property, get a group of friends and rent a house off property. That helps save on food and the price per person goes down drastically. We just found a resort, 2 bedroom villa, just outside the gates ( we have stayed there before and they are clean), in october 275 for 3 nights. We stay on and off property depending on the time of year or what we want to accomplish. If you want all the magic and stay on property, the value hotels, while more than staying off property , are reasonable. This "myth" of Disney pricing people out is laughable because it flies right in the face of facts and when you do apples to apples comparisons of the same type of vacation value to another locale.

 

[sheetz]

For me the difference between WDW and other vacation destinations (beach, mountains, etc.) is that WDW has higher fixed costs. That's mostly due to the tickets, but it's also hard to get away with not eating at least one meal onsite without a lot of inconvenience. OTOH bargain hunters can usually find great deals for other destinations pretty easily.

 

[Castle2Castle]

American middle class families are in decline while internationally middle class incomes are leaping forward in both monies and peoples.

Thus disny has successfully doubled the price, retained the crowds and looks like they are about to take it to the next level...

Brazilian tourists are forecast to increase by 50% over the next few years. A huge portion of them end up in Orlando.
http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2014/07/05/how-does-brazils-travel-boom-affect-florida.aspx

No disagreement that international travelers are visiting the U.S. and Disney. As of a couple years ago, international guests apparently make up between 18-22% of total attendance. But is the suggestion that the U.S. middle class is being priced out while simultaneously attracting more of the international middle class?

The Motley Fool article cites an increase in the number of visitors from Brazil, ranking them fifth behind Canada, Mexico, U.K., and Japan. A recent discussion about ticket prices for WDW v. Tokyo Disney led me to look at the average household net-disposable income, with the OECD indicating it's lower ($26,111) than in the U.S. ($41,355). Brazil doesn't have a figure listed, only that it's below the OECD average of $25,908. The top three among those international markets to the U.S. come in at $29,365; $13,085; and $27,029. It's an average that doesn't speak directly to what qualifies in each country as "middle class", but it seems unlikely the middle class of those countries would find WDW (plus international travel) more affordable than does the U.S. middle class.

 

[sheetz]

But is the suggestion that the U.S. middle class is being priced out while simultaneously attracting more of the international middle class?

International visitors skew towards the higher income groups so it's useless to compare median incomes. For example the median income of China is quite low but there are still millions of high income Chinese tourists.

 

[sheetz]

Here's another interesting chart showing which tourists spent the most money in the US in 2013.
http://skift.com/2014/04/09/the-10-tourists-that-spent-the-most-in-the-u-s-in-2013/

Country/Total spent/Millions of visitors/$ spent per visitor
Canada/$27.0 billion/23.39/$1,154
Japan/$18.0 billion/3.73/$4,826
United Kingdom/$13.7 billion/3.84/$3,568
Mexico/$10.5 billion/14.34/$732
Brazil/$10.5 billion/2.06/$5,097
People’s Republic of China/$9.8 billion/1.81/$5,414
Germany $7.5 billion/1.92/$3,906
Australia $6.1 billion/1.21/$5,041
France $5.9 billion/1.5/$3,933
India $5.6 billion/0.86/$6,512

Looking at the figures it's no wonder Disney wants as many Brazilian visitors as they can get. Their average spending was over $5000 per person. How many Americans do you think spend that much on a WDW vacation? Not many, I bet.

 

[DDLand]

Brazil/$10.5 billion/2.06/$5,097


Looking at the figures it's no wonder Disney wants as many Brazilian visitors as they can get. Their average spending was over $5000 per person. How many Americans do you think spend that much on a WDW vacation? Not many, I bet.

Caution on the Brazil front...http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/09/brazil-economy-falters-welfare-cuts