Why no hotel on the EPCOT line

[OKW Lover]

I absolutely agree. When Disney is almost running year-round discounts in one form or another to get people to stay *on property* it suggests that there are more than enough rooms to satisfy demand.

Originally I agreed with this, which was suggested by several PP's. But then I got to thinking a bit more (always dangerous) and I know disagree with the logic.

It seems to me that people stay on property when the total cost of their vacation is "reasonable" in their minds. If "free dining" is one of the factors that makes it reasonable, then they will stay on property. But, from Disney's perspective as long as they are making a reasonable return on their resort investment (even if they do have to offer "free dining") then all is good. At that point Disney's decision to build a new resort is not about existing resort capacity or occupancy levels, its about what they project for occupancy levels and revenue/expense of the new resort.

In other words, just because Disney is offering free dining to get people to stay on property, it doesn't mean they are losing money (or not making enough money) and therefore shouldn't build more rooms.

 

[rteetz]

Good point about the free dining. How about if they were to design a resort that was priced so that people would stay there without "free dining" but still make a profit? For that matter, do we know that Disney isn't still making money on the resorts despite FD?

Well the biggest thing with free dining is they are bringing people to the parks during the slower times. They don't due FD during the spring break period, christmas break and summer period. Free dinning is only done because of this and frankly I don't see FD lasting much longer new resort or not.

 

[rteetz]

What makes you think they don't have designs already...in particular as it applies to a stand alone DVC?

Disney always is going to have ideas and concepts that part of the imagination of imagineering! But what's financially right and feasible. If disney built everything they thought of they wouldn't be in business.

 

[rteetz]

The argument of the already existing EPCOT resorts aside, I'm not sure Disney needs another deluxe. With the rapid expansion of DVC (recently at GF with rumors of Poly) and values (with the addition of AoA) maybe moderate might be the way to go. Disney wouldn't be able to build another moderate resort and put it on a monorail, though. In reality, I don't know that Disney has the crowds/needs for another resort at this time, especially if it requires putting money into a brand new undeveloped property, as other posters have suggested.

Well the rumors are fact the construction at the poly is well underway! I agree I don't see any more resorts in at least the next 15 years if anything it's going to be continued resort expansion.

 

[emilyindisney]

I absolutely agree. When Disney is almost running year-round discounts in one form or another to get people to stay *on property* it suggests that there are more than enough rooms to satisfy demand.

I'd much rather they direct resources into the Parks...if they do *that* then there would be more of a need to expand their Resort portfolio.

Me too! I think if they do that they'll see the need to invest in a new resort property.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Well the biggest thing with free dining is they are bringing people to the parks during the slower times. They don't due FD during the spring break period, christmas break and summer period. Free dinning is only done because of this and frankly I don't see FD lasting much longer new resort or not.

I would tend to agree. Free dining is a great concept if its concentrated in September, January, may, etc when its traditionally been more quiet.

What still indicates problems with occupancy is what they did this past few months...where the dining promotion was used to plug significant holes in bookings for four months up until last week...that is an ongoing issue and indicative of no need for new hotels.

But I think as long as the phoney stock market
And politicians tell everyone that "things are GGRRRREAAT!"...then travel will continue to Increase and free dining will be shelved till the next crisis... When everything will cost 30% more anyway.

 

[rteetz]

I would tend to agree. Free dining is a great concept if its concentrated in September, January, may, etc when its traditionally been more quiet. What still indicates problems with occupancy is what they did this past few months...where the dining promotion was used to plug significant holes in bookings for four months up until last week...that is an ongoing issue and indicative of no need for new hotels. But I think as long as the phoney stock market And politicians tell everyone that "things are GGRRRREAAT!"...then travel will continue to Increase and free dining will be shelved till the next crisis... When everything will cost 30% more anyway.

Exactly couldn't agree more

 

[jcjen519]

the distribution of wealth has changed quite a bit since wdw opened its gates. a quick google search will give you the figures but since the 1970s the income of the top 1% has risen by over 250% while that number is 40% for the middle 60% of Americans. apparently in the last year the top 1% saw a 20% gain and the other 99% only a 1% increase. the median household income according to the census bureau was just over $51,000 in 2012.

I studied the history of the progression of employment, unions and the like in undergrad as well as the history of the accompanying laws both in undergrad and law school. personally, I believe it might be very telling to note that the current gap in income is the largest it has been since the 1920s. I would be interested to know historically what changed legally, socially etc and when it changed exactly as the years went by and the discrepancy shrank. Likewise, it would be interesting to research how employment laws and social policies have changed since the 70's or so. we have such a large discrepancy once again and i would be interested to look at the connection.

but anyways

i think if disney intended to build on the monorail they have had opportunity to do so and chosen not to do it. I would be surprised if we see true new disney resort construction at wdw at all. dvc? sure. I will add as well (and maybe i got lucky) but we added a 2nd tpv room at poly cl no more then a month or so out from our mid dec trip this year. not only did we have no problem getting the room there was even availability with the military discount which we could use by booking the room in my mothers name since she was joining us (dad is retired from the reserves)

i am considering flying my son down for the power rangers weekend at nick hotel in february (5-6 weeks away). while i know i have to book a room at nick hotel no way will we be sleeping there so being out of points I checked resort availability at disney and could pretty much have my pick. maybe luck? Feb is a quieter month?

certainly no expert on the topic, I just don't get the feeling these rooms are being snapped up.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

the distribution of wealth has changed quite a bit since wdw opened its gates. a quick google search will give you the figures but since the 1970s the income of the top 1% has risen by over 250% while that number is 40% for the middle 60% of Americans. apparently in the last year the top 1% saw a 20% gain and the other 99% only a 1% increase. the median household income according to the census bureau was just over $51,000 in 2012.

I studied the history of the progression of employment, unions and the like in undergrad as well as the history of the accompanying laws both in undergrad and law school. personally, I believe it might be very telling to note that the current gap in income is the largest it has been since the 1920s. I would be interested to know historically what changed legally, socially etc and when it changed exactly as the years went by and the discrepancy shrank. Likewise, it would be interesting to research how employment laws and social policies have changed since the 70's or so. we have such a large discrepancy once again and i would be interested to look at the connection.

but anyways

i think if disney intended to build on the monorail they have had opportunity to do so and chosen not to do it. I would be surprised if we see true new disney resort construction at wdw at all. dvc? sure. I will add as well (and maybe i got lucky) but we added a 2nd tpv room at poly cl no more then a month or so out from our mid dec trip this year. not only did we have no problem getting the room there was even availability with the military discount which we could use by booking the room in my mothers name since she was joining us (dad is retired from the reserves)

i am considering flying my son down for the power rangers weekend at nick hotel in february (5-6 weeks away). while i know i have to book a room at nick hotel no way will we be sleeping there so being out of points I checked resort availability at disney and could pretty much have my pick. maybe luck? Feb is a quieter month?

certainly no expert on the topic, I just don't get the feeling these rooms are being snapped up.

Fascinating....

Not to go into economic history...but the stock market crash, the credit collapse, the depression and the new deal are widely recognized to be the "painful but necessary" antidote to the gilded nonsense of the 1920's you speak of...

Wealth of the few was institutionally sacrificed for the needs of the many. But that was not "post industrial" America...so the difficulties of that ever happening again are..."daunting"

There was an interesting article today about Darden spinning off Red Lobster in a move to liquidate the chain...it talked specifically about the loss of purchasing power of the mass of America...and that overall purchasing power peaked in 1968.

I'd like to think disney isn't contributing or exploiting some of the dark truths/myths of this country...but then again...

Back to topic...no, I don't think disney has anything close to a room shortage...nor a problem with huge crowds...
And yet...record revenues and profits...hmmm

 

[jcjen519]

Fascinating....

Not to go into economic history...but the stock market crash, the credit collapse, the depression and the new deal are widely recognized to be the "painful but necessary" antidote to the gilded nonsense of the 1920's you speak of...

Wealth of the few was institutionally sacrificed for the needs of the many. But that was not "post industrial" America...so the difficulties of that ever happening again are..."daunting"

There was an interesting article today about Darden spinning off Red Lobster in a move to liquidate the chain...it talked specifically about the loss of purchasing power of the mass of America...and that overall purchasing power peaked in 1968.

I'd like to think disney isn't contributing or exploiting some of the dark truths/myths of this country...but then again...

Back to topic...no, I don't think disney has anything close to a room shortage...nor a problem with huge crowds...
And yet...record revenues and profits...hmmm

I may have taken your post the wrong way with what i originally typed. either way never mind. hope everyone enjoys the thread

 

[lockedoutlogic]

I may have taken your post the wrong way with what i originally typed. either way never mind. hope everyone enjoys the thread

Take it at face value...
I find your post very insightful. It's nice too have depth to read on these threads...as opposed to "how magical is port Orleans?!?!"

This particular forum is 95% about economics, in my opinion...the corporate realities of Disney trying to balance PR and what they perceive as their brand while attempting to limit their investment and shake new revenues out of largely the same old stuff.
As consumers...we're all drug behind that boat.

 

[Maineiak]

I suspect there are designs for new resorts, DVC and non-DVC, on some back burner somewhere. Perhaps not fully imagined, but concepts at the least.

Clearly, Disney must have a master plan somewhere for the property holdings they have. There don't even have to be design, could just be ideas.

We have master plans here at work for our campus, complete with models. It's fascinating to see what becomes reality over time.

If only we could get a peek at those Disney master plans...

 

[OnSpaceshipEarth]

Clearly, Disney must have a master plan somewhere for the property holdings they have. There don't even have to be design, could just be ideas.

We have master plans here at work for our campus, complete with models. It's fascinating to see what becomes reality over time.

If only we could get a peek at those Disney master plans...

I'd love to see real numbers pertaining to the occupancy of the WDW Resorts.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

I'd love to see real numbers pertaining to the occupancy of the WDW Resorts.

It's probably in the stockholders report...

"Public" owned

 

[Bob Roberts]

Clearly, Disney must have a master plan somewhere for the property holdings they have. There don't even have to be design, could just be ideas.

We have master plans here at work for our campus, complete with models. It's fascinating to see what becomes reality over time.

If only we could get a peek at those Disney master plans...

I can tell you what the modern day Disney master plans are for the the Disney Parks, especially the Walt Disney World Resort.

Disney Master Plan: "Wow we can really jump the shark here at WDW and the yokels just keep on coming. We can't quite figure it out since inflation and income levels are totally out of wack, thank goodness for credit cards. Lets just keep on nickel and dimming all the guests and see what happens. Now time to bump up theme park tickets another 5% yah!!!!!!!!(Kermit the Frog style)"

 

[OnSpaceshipEarth]

I can tell you what the modern day Disney master plans are for the the Disney Parks, especially the Walt Disney World Resort.

Disney Master Plan: "Wow we can really jump the shark here at WDW and the yokels just keep on coming. We can't quite figure it out since inflation and income levels are totally out of wack, thank goodness for credit cards. Lets just keep on nickel and dimming all the guests and see what happens. Now time to bump up theme park tickets another 5% yah!!!!!!!!(Kermit the Frog style)"

"Thank goodness for credit cards."!

 

[vandy]

Without a MAJOR expansion of an existing park, or the building of a much debated 5th park, I am not so sure Disney would be that interested in building a new resort. As already stated they are more likely to continue the DVC movement and maybe expand an existing resort if increased capacity is needed.

On that lines, does anyone think Disney at some point in the future will try even more to encourage guests to stay on-site by offering some sort of incentive (like they do for onsite guests now with extra magic hours) and have it tied into the FP+ system? Maybe more choices for onsite guests vs off site? I am sure there are several more examples that could be thought off. This type of incentive would be year round and not seasonal like free dining tends to be.

I for one could see the corporate mind-set leaning towards something like this and trying different ways to capture as many onsite guests as possible. If this were to happen, then I could see an emphasis into creating another resort that would be geared more towards another value resort.

Thoughts?

 

[lockedoutlogic]

"Thank goodness for credit cards."!

Though Mr. Roberts swings his keyboard like a blunt instrument that even makes me blush...

Fundamentally, I agree 100%

The problem at wdw is that Disney is attempting to squeeze juice from already spoiling fruit...while at the same time bad consumers are rewarding them and emboldening them even more

 

[rteetz]

Without a MAJOR expansion of an existing park, or the building of a much debated 5th park, I am not so sure Disney would be that interested in building a new resort. As already stated they are more likely to continue the DVC movement and maybe expand an existing resort if increased capacity is needed. On that lines, does anyone think Disney at some point in the future will try even more to encourage guests to stay on-site by offering some sort of incentive (like they do for onsite guests now with extra magic hours) and have it tied into the FP+ system? Maybe more choices for onsite guests vs off site? I am sure there are several more examples that could be thought off. This type of incentive would be year round and not seasonal like free dining tends to be. I for one could see the corporate mind-set leaning towards something like this and trying different ways to capture as many onsite guests as possible. If this were to happen, then I could see an emphasis into creating another resort that would be geared more towards another value resort. Thoughts?

It has been rumored for a while now that maybe on site guests would get more FP+ but I don't see that happening. I wouldn't doubt that was one of their ideas and I'm sure there are plenty of others out there.

 

[OnSpaceshipEarth]

Though Mr. Roberts swings his keyboard like a blunt instrument that even makes me blush...

Fundamentally, I agree 100%

The problem at wdw is that Disney is attempting to squeeze juice from already spoiling fruit...while at the same time bad consumers are rewarding them and emboldening them even more

@lockedoutlogic

I wasn't laughing *at* Roberts statement...I was laughing *with* him.

It was a bullseye remark.

Love it!