Why "News & Rumors" is needed for debate.....

[All Aboard]

Ok Scoop and YoHo... personal moments in restrooms and altercations at hot tubs... no one but me knows what you two are talking about, so before too many people get the wrong idea, we oughta cool it.

 

[DisneyKidds]

Scoop.....I can't tell you exactly how it would have been done, although AV had some ideas in the past.

What I do know is this. The moderates aren't as immersive as the deluxe resorts, yet they were done in a way that I could buy off on. Yes, there are less amenities, outside hallways, you can see the parking lot, etc., etc. However, via real themeing and creative landscaping, and using what Disney used to be great at.....storytelling.....they took what was essentially less of a resort and made it Disney. I'm sure the same could have been done for the values. Cheaper architecture could still have been given a real theme (as opposed to simple decorations) and told a story. If that couldn't have been accomplished then I agree...the values shouldn't have been built.

It comes down to Disney providing something of a unique resort experience that nobody else can deliver. The deluxe resorts do that. The moderate resorts seemed to have accomplished that. The values.....well, Disney's version of the cheap architecture, simple decoration style hotel genre has been outdone by the Nickelodeon Hotel.

Gets back to the age old argument of Disney having always been better than the competition. Today they strive to be equals at best. The Values exemplify this core problem with what Disney has become.

Oh, I still love WDW and it's still our number one vacation destination for now. The place has a ton to offer, including great stuff that has come from 21st century Disney. I even think that that will continue and WDW will flourish. But that doesn't mean that the Walt Disney Company has made all the right decisions and has positioned WDW, DL, and all other Disney offerings to be everything they could have been.

 

[All Aboard]

Gets back to the age old argument of Disney having always been better than the competition. Today they strive to be equals at best. The Values exemplify this core problem with what Disney has become.

Again, I'm not sure I could possibly disagree any more than I do in this case. At their price, the Walt Disney World Value Resorts are absolutely the best I can get. Purely my own opinion, I know. But, for the average $60 a night I spend when I am there, there simply isn't anything that even comes close.

You can find a bigger room, but that's where it stops. You can't find a more fun place, you can't find a cleaner place, you can't find a better food court, you can't find a better pool or playground, you can't find better transportation, or a better location. At least not in my opinion.

 

[airlarry!]

However, the idea that Disney could have made the values--at the price point they need to be to be a value--as highly immersive resorts might sound good as part of a powerpoint presentation on the ills of Disney, but nobody--not one poster--has ever really spent the time to post how it would work and still make money.

This remarkably sounds a lot like M. Bicker's argument. Now I am led to believe that the LTNV resorts are so cheap, that we can't even build 'story' into them?

They were forced (or it was 'essential') to use Giant Cowboy Boots as the theme?

Last I checked, you don't need 'financials' or an 'analyst' to create a story. It takes hard work. Imagination. Guts. An intuition about what the public wants and will pay for.

Story doesn't cost money. Story takes ability.

The LTNV resorts don't exhibit ability or caring or imagination. Plainly and simply, they saw a need to capture a market and did it in the cheapest, most cost-effective fashion that would still meet the minimum level of maintaining the 'Disney' brand image.


As for the rest, we will have to agree to disagree. The resort itself has to take into account the entire operation. It is a mistake to try and question whether the monorails will pay for themselves, etc., because that defeats the purpose of having a unified resort.

People will drop buckets of money to spend a week or more at WDW if they believe they are getting their money's worth at a self-contained supersized family-friendly fantasy playground that immerses you in Disney's imagination totally and completely. The a la carte crowd who presently occupy much of the DIS executive suites just did not get it.

 

[DisneyKidds]

Yes, POP might be the best you can get for $59.......but is that saying a whole lot?

I guess my point is this. Had the Nickeloeon hotel decided to make their accomodations single rooms as opposed to suites there would be absolutely no difference between POP and Nick (same achitecture, same decorating style, albeit SpongeBob instead of a bowling pin), and you could probably have had both for the same price.

Kudos to Disney for making theirs the best of the cheap hotels, but I still have a problem with them building something that just about any Tom, Dick or Harry hotel chain could build just as nice right outside the "berm".

The Values show no vision, no imagination, no storytelling.....and to me that just isn't Disney.

 

[Peter Pirate]

My goodness Kidds, have you morphed into Landbaron?

Enough with this "story" and "theme" versus "decoration" business. Who's the arbitor? Further, what's the story with the Mods? They are all themed like someplace real but no story. Pop is whimisically themed to emote memories from our not too distant pasts. Again, no story. Don't like it? That's OK, but it is disingenuous to say it has no theme but the mods do.

Pop is far superior to those 192 motels. Its location, CM's and bus service make it distinctive Disney Resort. It appeals to guests with less in their wallet, to guests who are uncomfortable in hotels (with valet service, concierge, tipping, etc.), and to frequent visitors looking for a quick getaway without mortgaging the farm.

It is unique, although I know the 'pie in the sky crowd' doesn't think so, in it's use of bright colors, giant bowling pins and goofy sayings. Where else do you find these things? The fact that 'you' may or may not like them is irrelevent. The grounds are maintained in Disney fashion, the pools are way better than average and Disney busses take you where you need to go.

Could they have been done better? Well, certainly. But so could everything else. Mission Space could have been that whole otherworldly experience, AK could have had BK and no Dinoland, AKL could have had less tedious hallways...Heck, Pirates could use some actual actors in occasional roles instead of animatronics, Haunted Mansion could...Well, I don't think that could be better, but the point is Pop Century is very Disney in it's own realm, just like the Polynesian fits it's role and niche, just like POR fits it's role and niche so too does Pop Century.

It may be true that a vast majority of guests only choose the budget accomodations due to money issues but there are still many guests who actually love Pop for exactly what it is. Little kids love the giant Lady and Tramp, little kids are fascinated by the goofy sayings (I know my daughter is always asking me what they mean, which always leads to a funny conversation between father and daughter. This is a good thing).

Diseny isn't meant to be one thing for one group with one set of standards. Disney needs to appeal to the wide cross section of people who need to be parted from their disposable income be it in small sums at a time like at Pop or in big chunks as at the Grand Floridian.

 

[All Aboard]

Dixie Landings opened in 1992, All Star Sports opened in 1994. I'd buy the whole "the Imagineers really could have done so much more than they did with the same budget" argument a bit more if there was more than a two year gap. Heck AS Sports must have been in an advanced design stage while DxL was opening.

 

[airlarry!]

Wait.

Who said the Imagineers designed AS or Poop?

I'm pretty sure, although I would not mind being corrected on this, that these motels were built under the supervision of the DDC not the Imagineers.

Oh, and what M. Pirate praised pool-wise, I would call pretty crappy. I've always thought the one big drawback to the AS and Poop motels are the pedestrian designs of the pools.

I mean come on, Is it really costing Disney $50 a night per guest to put in a freaking slide? Of course not, the difference is what the ever astute PUDB said...that Disney was more concerned in 1994 in not cutting its own neck on the price of the moderates versus the LTNVs. Who in there right mind would pay $139 if they could get it for $79?

This problem does not exist if Imagineers with foresight, history, and imagination were brought into the project, instead of accountanteers building a motel version of Dinoland.

Its hard to imagine in my mind that the CBR and DxL and PO resorts wouldn't have looked great rimmed near the MK. I mean, I think I remember seeing a sign for "Frontierland" and "Adventureland" the last time I was slurping on a Dole Whip, but I could be wrong. I vaguely recall a snippet of story in there somewhere.......

Yipes, the above is kind of all over the place. I'm trying to address a number of points here, but the main issue of which I take umbrage is the charge that Imagineers could not have done a better job at this price point. Fiddlesticks. The value minded guest deserves a better experience for $77-131 (the current rack rates for the LTNV resorts) a night.

What Scoopy asks is the impossible. He wants a blueprint with specific prices on plumbing, dinnerware, and electric price per BTU of a resort that is the same price as the AS but delivers a ModeratePlus experience. Now, seriously, who in their right mind could type that out in this space? I would hope that I wouldn't need an itemized spreadsheet of the building cost of the Venetian Resort to prove that DIS could accomplish what I'm talking about.

Common sense tells you that there is enough profit margin at $77-131 to build a better resort, and long term evaluation (as opposed to short term profiteering) would also tell you to invest in your infrastructure even at lower margins if it means more people are happy...cause those happy people will return and rain money in your coffers.

 

[DancingBear]

I believe both the All-Stars and Pop were designed by Arquitectonica.

www.arquitectonica.com

 

[YoHo]

Scoop, you're argument is ridiculous. Just as there is no proof that Disney could have built a better value resort at that price point. There is absolutly no proof that they couldn't. All you have is what they did build and we have nothing to prove that that's the best they could do. That was a decoration choice.

And heck, they could have built them even cheaper by not putting that fiberglass and purple paint on at all. Then at least they wouldn't be an offense to the eye. How about some tasteful murals of old WDW storyboards and designs ala the Disneyland hotel?
Those fiberglass offenses to all things magical were not dictated by a price point at all.

 

[YoHo]

No John, it is you and several others who are claiming that common sense, guts, and imagination can create a highly immersive resort at a value price point.

Unfortunately, you haven't presented a single example of this ever happening in the whole wide world since the beginning of time.

Kind of hard to really just "trust you" under those circumstances.

This entire post relates to mine in no conceivable way. So I'm just going to ignore it.

 

[cristen]

Chad,

I hesitate to speak for Larry and Yoho, but I am pretty sure they are not arguing for a HIGHLY immersive hotel at that price point. Just a better one than what was offered.

PO was offered at not much higher of a price than the values. Can you agree that it would have been better to have built more hotels along the lines of PO and charged the small difference to keep the quality of Disney instead of building a motel with decorations for about the same price of the room?

I am trying to find a middle ground to which we could all agree on.

Please simma down now, and quit calling people by their first names.

 

[YoHo]

And that's all it really is. It's not like Walt left an example of how to do accomplish this figment of your imagination. He tried several approaches at lodging and was remarkably unsuccessful and marrying affordability with immersiveness.

I have to wonder "How" You think he tried this, since Disney did not build a single resort during his lifetime.

Oh, the WDW resorts were in the planning stages, but nothing was firmed up or built.

 

[airlarry!]

Actually, Cristen, that's usually how I can tell I'm right, cause he always accidentally mispells my name in frustration. B or L or G or H, they all look alike after a few rumrunners.

I can't do anything about this "John" fellow, other than that we all know Yoho is a pirate, and Scoopy knows that "John" was voted in Pirates Monthly as the most popular name for young bucanneer scalawags.

 

[Bstanley]

Oh for heavens sake. There are dozens of examples of resorts within .30-06 range of the All-Stars that offer more motel for less money.

According to Expedia, since I don't have an annual pass, and I'm not a Florida resident - the price of the Pop Century is at least $89 (and I don't have a clue what specials for Florida residents other motels might offer).

Now Expedia's first suggestion for a room in Orlando is the Radisson Resort Parkway, 1.5 miles from the gate. They are offering 350sqft rooms with a Coffee-Maker, premium cable, daily newspaper, secured interior hallways, 2 pools (one with slide and waterfalls), free internet and computer use in the business center, on site full service restaurant (kids 10 and under eat free with adult), food court, tennis courts (balls and racquets available for use), playground, fitness center, sauna, and basketball court. Curiously they manage to offer this for $59. Oh - there's a bus to the parks also.

So for basically 50% more money if I stay at Pop Century I will receive 60% of the space, 50% of the room gadgets, 50% of the dining choices, 50% of the amenities and a giant fiberglass boot at the corner of the building...

I'm not asking Disney to Imagineer a way to offer the Polynesian for $89 a night - but it doesn't take a Rocket Scientist to see that they haven't even managed to offer a Radisson for $89 a night...

There is no way on God's green Earth that anyone can believe that an Imagineer sat down at a clean sheet of paper with the goal of providing a modestly priced room and ended up designing the Value resorts. Where are the maintenance and energy savings of a central HVAC system? Where are the innovative construction techniques to minimize costs? A room design that makes it easy to clean? Use of materials that minimize wear and cleaning costs. There wasn't an Imagineer within 10 miles of this design. It was outsourced from day one.

Other than the smallest rooms in Orange/Osceola county the Values were a Transplanted Motel 6 from the git-go.

 

[YoHo]

//Nice edit

All that being said, Yes, I think a Radisson and all that implies would be a marked improvment over the Values. In terms of improved sightlines if nothing else.

 

[Bstanley]

Who cares whether it's a bunch of itty bitty buildings or one megawhopolis?

Sombody must be vacationing for a week at the Radisson - otherwise it wouldn't still be in business. I don't think a hotel 1.5 miles outside WDW it depending on business traverlers to keep it's doors open.

Free transport from the airport is a plus for Pop Century - if you fly into Orlando. Extra magic hours is a plus for Pop Century. So we've identified what $150 worth of the price difference is.

There is a regularly scheduled bus from the Radisson to the parks - as to Pop Century's bus being incredibly convenient compared to it - ahh well, I don't think it's incredibly different.

Yes indeed I am saying exactly that - if features of the Radisson had been added to Pop Century it would have been an improvement. Surely more spacious rooms, a full-service restaurant, a pool with a waterfall and a slide, etc would be considered improvements? Are you saying they wouldn't?

 

[YoHo]

And, let me make something very clear:

I am not defending the design of the Values. I completely agree that from a non-youngster perspective, all of the moderates and other WDW resorts are better themed.

However, like GC, I recognize the importance of having this price point available on property for guests who could not afford higher priced WDW resorts.

And, I'll also reiterate what I've said in the past, had the AllStars or Pop Century been built in more prominent places such as around the lagoon or boardwalk or across the lake from DTD, then I'd be opposed to their visual affect in relation to the big picture.

However, that is not what happened. They did not build them where the Asian or Venetian was planned to be.

They built them is an area where guests can enjoy the valuable benefits of staying on WDW property while still being able to offer a value price point (because, the WDW land on which they are situated is obviously not as valuable as land around the lagoon).

All that being said, if the argument boils down to the fact that Disney would have done better to built the parkway radisson in place of these resorts then I just don't see that being the guts and imagination that supposedly could achieve some level of greatness.

Well then, it seems you are not debating the question at hand, since nobody has denied that value priced accomidations should be provided. Only that the ones that were provided are abominations.

All much ado about nothing.


As for your second post, you have revealed your name and profession on this very board. Therefore, your tit for tat request is irrrelevent as our friend the LSU fan has NOT revealed that about himself.....on this board.

 

[DancingBear]

Deviating from the way this thread has headed, but, not having been to Pop Century, I'm curious---did they do anything design-wise at Pop different than the All-Stars?

 

[Onemoretime]

.... spending time in the parks tends to cut down on certain tasks usually reserved for the workplace.....

but I wanted to comment on the idea that a value resort could be built with all the same features that make a deluxe a deluxe. The idea that all it takes is imagination and guts is a little unrealistic. Every feature that makes Poly, Poly, has an up-front cost as well as follow up costs attached to it.

Hidding the parking lot requires moving it further away & building buffer zone. The cost to built & maintain buffer adds considerable expense. Moving the parking lot further away is an inconvienence.

Inside hallways are a major expense. Heating, A/C and air exchange are an expense as well as maintaining a carpet, painted walls, light fixtures, alarm and sprinkler system and inside stairwells. It also increases the overall footprint of the building which affects drainage calculations.

Every pool area feature & play area has considerable upkeep expense. Pool slides require lifeguards on duty.

DW is giving me the evil eye. Gotta go, but look at every aspect of a deluxe resort & realize there is an expense related to it. For people whose number one concern is cost per nite to sleep & shower even marginal increases for a value resort will push them off-site.

Those who still think a POP can be a Poly have to offer more the " Yeah, but....".