Why is everyone so concerned with the new Poly tower

[ehh]

So far, there has not been a problem getting a studio at RIV as an owner. Tower studios and SV go pretty fast but never a shortage for PV when booking it 11 months.

I have not yet had a problem reserving a SV studio at 11 months for any time I’d the year.

Even had two booked at 11 months for early Dec without walking..ended up changing to a 2 bedroom a few weeks later but still got one.

People having difficulty so far are those trying at 7 months and don’t own there.

I've needed to walk for my SV studios in late December. Even starting the walk was difficult and took 2 attempts, if I remember correctly.

 

[Sandisw]

While I get what you're saying here, this is the one question that Guides should have experience answering because before January 2019, this was the question that they needed a good answer to. Also, DVC can lower the price point with incentives to make direct much more attractive than resale.

I do hope for a different association, but I fear that it will be the same...

They probably did get that question but the difference was those were new resorts, not expansions..other than SSR..and the market wasn’t already flooded with contracts

When PVB went on sale, there was no resale market for it because they hadn’t yet sold enough for someone to sell.

It takes a few years into direct sales to see options show up for a person to snag an active selling resort resale.

Tons of contracts out there every year that a resale buyer can buy there so that changes the game up from previous resorts that started initial sales.

Once sales start for the tower, assuming same, a buyer will have a choice right away.

Pricing is a interesting thought too. Right now, PVB is in the $160s right now. People saw what happened with VGF initial pricing..same as RIV..down from the sold out price if $255.

So, same association means lots of new points and some feel they won’t take in ROFR because of it..well if they stop, that price is going lower..which means direct price and resale price might be pretty wide by the time start

With no restrictions, not a huge reason to go direct anymore if one can save so much resale.

Personally, I just don’t see any big advantages for DVD to drop restrictions and roll this in to PVB..

Being an MK resort, it’s the perfect project to keep them going.

 

[Sandisw]

I follow Jen Lefforge on YT, and she talked about needing to walk her tower studios reservations at Riviera. I hear similar things about the value studios at AKV. Again, my guess is that Disney intends to make availability for cheaper rooms limited to encourage add-ons. That’s why I think the resort studio complaints about VGF are kind of misplaced. I think Disney’s plans is that most buyers initially buy for a studio, but pretty soon they’ll want bigger. And that’s something that’s hard to do at PVB right now since the bungalows are such a huge step up.

One of the problems with walking is people do it when they may not need to which makes other do it. I did that the first year only to realize it wasn’t needed

Towers are definite popular and many times of the year, especially Fall, are gone within 5 minutes. But my experience has been different than that persons so it really does depend on how successful one can be. There are not a lot of them and I believe only half are declared so far.

I think the Issue with the resort studio is that long time DVC owners like and enjoy the deluxe studio layout..not that they built a lot of them..though I think adding 202 to VGF is going to make that resort much easier to get into at 7 months for those who want studios which could end up playing a role in resale value..it held high because it was difficult to book..but that’s another topic.

I do think there is going to be a chance to see the studios at Poly tower have the two beds like BPK, but hoping they will at least put back a kitchenette since it’s a ground up build. Maybe some tower studios like RIV

 

[BeachClub2014]

And if you think Split Poly is easier to sell, think about how much negative marketing and rationalization ("well no, you can't book there but THEY can't book here either" or "oh but it's always easy to book there at 7 months") will need to be done to make that happen compared to Combo Poly.

This negative marketing angle is often repeated as a reason for DVC to roll the Tower into the same association as PVB, and I get it to an extent. The challenge with that argument is that DVC is targeting (which you see often repeated here on the DIS) starry-eyed newbies who walk up to a kiosk for sales. To those people, DVC simply has to say "Buy Poly Tower points directly from us and the World is yours. You can stay anywhere you want."

That was a seemingly powerful sales tactic for the O14 resorts, right? Why wouldn't it continue to be so?

 

[KimMcGowan]

I just don’t see them giving that up just yet when the current sales are showing that a restricted resort can do pretty well against others when the price is right.

Legitimate question, no snark - Riviera was marketed as the Grand Floridian of the EPCOT area. Do you think they are happy that they have to “price it right” to keep sales on par with the actual Grand?
I think it is possible, and I think they may know this, that without restrictions RR would be the hottest purchase right now. How could you beat a world class resort with Skyliner access that just happens to have the longest contract length for EPCOT and HS? Granted, they could be playing a very long game and it might not matter. However, has ANYTHING the current regime has done even hint they are, given the option, going to choose long-term gains over fast cash?

 

[lovethesun12]

Legitimate question, no snark - Riviera was marketed as the Grand Floridian of the EPCOT area, do you think they are happy that they have to “price it right” to keep sales on par with the actual Grand?
I think it is possible, and I think they may know this, that without restrictions RR would be the hottest purchase right now. How could you beat a world class resort with Skyliner access that just happens to have the longest contract length for EPCOT and HS? Granted, they could be playing a very long game and it might not matter. However, has ANYTHING the current regime has done even hint they are, given the option, going to choose long-term gains over fast cash?

We ended up visiting RIV (went there from MK once when the monorail was down) and between the skyliner, restaurants, etc it really is a beautiful resort. I'm pretty sure (actually certain) we would have bought in immediately if the restrictions weren't there, and I do understand why people look past them. That said, for me personally, I think the entire time the resale restrictions just make you think, meh. It's so hard to look past them because you are comparing to all the other properties that are just as nice and don't have them.

RIV gets trashed a lot but if they didn't have the restrictions I don't think people would trash it at all because it would be so much easier to see it for what it is.

I really think adding those restrictions for that resort has potentially damaged their brand, and could do more damage in the future once people start buying resale and are unable to get a room at any point after 7 months.

 

[DVCsloth]

We ended up visiting RIV (went there from MK once when the monorail was down) and between the skyliner, restaurants, etc it really is a beautiful resort. I'm pretty sure (actually certain) we would have bought in immediately if the restrictions weren't there, and I do understand why people look past them. That said, for me personally, I think the entire time the resale restrictions just make you think, meh. It's so hard to look past them because you are comparing to all the other properties that are just as nice and don't have them.

RIV gets trashed a lot but if they didn't have the restrictions I don't think people would trash it at all because it would be so much easier to see it for what it is.

I really think adding those restrictions for that resort has potentially damaged their brand, and could do more damage in the future once people start buying resale and are unable to get a room at any point after 7 months.

I think the main reason that Riviera had a slow start is mostly because of the pandemic. Now the economy is not doing well and the 150 point buy in is a pretty large commitment. When we bought VGF in 2014, people were bashing it all over the place. So, I think they would find all kinds of problems with Riviera as well even without restrictions. We initially passed on Riviera because of the restrictions, but we ended up buying in July and it's close to being our favorite already. We buy where we want to stay and if we do end up selling for a reduced amount because of the restrictions we are ok with it. IMO Riviera will hold a pretty good value because it is beautiful resort and it's got a really good location.

 

[Jlo85]

I think the main reason that Riviera had a slow start is mostly because of the pandemic..

I think it’s hard to tell. When I looked back at Animal Kingdom, AKV opened up during the Great Recession and is a similar point size to Riviera. It took 5 years for AKV to sell-out, but it also wasn’t being actively marketed. And I think it had stiffer competition because at that time BLT, VGF, SSR (treehouse expansion), AUL, VGC, and OKW were all being sold.

Sales for Riviera have picked up, but that’s also because it’s being actively marketed. Once Disney moves on to actively marketing the Disneyland Hotel and Poly Tower, I wonder how long Riviera will take to sell-out. Or maybe it’ll be an Aulani and never sell-out. Who knows?

 

[lovethesun12]

I think the main reason that Riviera had a slow start is mostly because of the pandemic. Now the economy is not doing well and the 150 point buy in is a pretty large commitment. When we bought VGF in 2014, people were bashing it all over the place. So, I think they would find all kinds of problems with Riviera as well even without restrictions. We initially passed on Riviera because of the restrictions, but we ended up buying in July and it's close to being our favorite already. We buy where we want to stay and if we do end up selling for a reduced amount because of the restrictions we are ok with it. IMO Riviera will hold a pretty good value because it is beautiful resort and it's got a really good location.

I can understand that. We buy where we want to stay too but there are a lot of places I want to stay at Disney (lol). So I'm going for the resorts that work best for me for the cost. I would be happiest at poly, VGF, BLT, RIV, BCV and BWV. With the current resale prices, and restrictions at RIV, poly made the most sense for us.

If VGF2 was selling when I first purchased poly resale, I'm pretty sure I would have bought there direct since it doesn't have the restrictions. When VGF2 was announced I was considering selling my poly contracts for direct points (I don't like the idea of split stays) but ultimately dragged that decision out, and while I was weighing the pros and cons poly tower was announced so waiting to see what happens makes the most sense at this point.

Still not sure if owning direct would be worth it, but if poly1/2 are the same association it's not something I even have to think about and would just go for it.

 

[pianomanzano]

I follow Jen Lefforge on YT, and she talked about needing to walk her tower studios reservations at Riviera. I hear similar things about the value studios at AKV. Again, my guess is that Disney intends to make availability for cheaper rooms limited to encourage add-ons. That’s why I think the resort studio complaints about VGF are kind of misplaced. I think Disney’s plans is that most buyers initially buy for a studio, but pretty soon they’ll want bigger. And that’s something that’s hard to do at PVB right now since the bungalows are such a huge step up.

That’s just simple supply and demand. There’s like 5 AKV value studios and only 6 of the tower studios at RIV that are declared.

I don’t think they plan for people to initially buy studios especially since the minimum is now 150, which is more than a week for most studios. Plus they have that tool on the website to plan out how many points are recommended based on family size, length of travel, etc. If they planned for members to eventually want bigger with VGF, they would’ve added different room types along with the studios at BPK, but we all know that was just a quick flip of hotel rooms for cash.

 

[GoingSince1990]

If Disney is having serious second thoughts about RIV style resale restrictions, the “same association” approach that they also used with VGF2 is a very convenient way to reverse themselves without having to announce that they are reversing themselves. Obviously they cannot do that with DLT though, which is another resort I would seriously consider buying into, but only if it does not have RIV style resale restrictions.

 

[Ruttangel]

That’s just simple supply and demand. There’s like 5 AKV value studios and only 6 of the tower studios at RIV that are declared.

There are 18 value studios (difficult to book), only 5 club level (super difficult)

 

[Jlo85]

That’s just simple supply and demand. There’s like 5 AKV value studios and only 6 of the tower studios at RIV that are declared.

I don’t think they plan for people to initially buy studios especially since the minimum is now 150, which is more than a week for most studios. Plus they have that tool on the website to plan out how many points are recommended based on family size, length of travel, etc. If they planned for members to eventually want bigger with VGF, they would’ve added different room types along with the studios at BPK, but we all know that was just a quick flip of hotel rooms for cash.

Yes, but I think it’s artificial supply and demand. Clearly there are bargain shoppers looking for a small room, yet Disney builds just a few cheap studios, and 20 Bungalows that are 1,000 points a week and empty most of the time. Mostly just saying that I think add-ons are probably a pretty good source of revenue for Disney, and that Disney structures the resorts in a way to encourage people to add-on.

Also I think the point minimum will probably track with a studio cost for a week. Yes, there are studios for cheaper as we’ve discussed, but they’re never available. Studios at Disneyland Hotel will be 150 points/week I’m guessing.

All just conjecture, I have no proof of anything. I just think add-ons are kind of the whole point of ROFR. If they didn’t want to sell add-ons, they wouldn’t need ROFR, or at least can’t think of a reason they would.

 

[Roughians_satchel]

This negative marketing angle is often repeated as a reason for DVC to roll the Tower into the same association as PVB, and I get it to an extent. The challenge with that argument is that DVC is targeting (which you see often repeated here on the DIS) starry-eyed newbies who walk up to a kiosk for sales. To those people, DVC simply has to say "Buy Poly Tower points directly from us and the World is yours. You can stay anywhere you want."

That was a seemingly powerful sales tactic for the O14 resorts, right? Why wouldn't it continue to be so?

I do think you're right about the main customer are the "starry-eyed newbies". Are there any stats we can see about how many total points are sold as add-ons vs new members? I'm guessing new contracts (by volume of points) FAR outweighs add-ons and resale combined for active resorts in Florida.

Most of this discussion seems to be that anyone buying the Tower has no interest in the original resorts...and I don't think that's true, especially for new "starry eyed" buyers.
Poly1 has something that Poly2 will never have...LOCATION. Location to the main house - location to the monorail. Heck, even location to the TTC for people who want to walk over to pick up the monorail to Epcot. Making it all one association gives the newbie the ultimate flexibility in staying choices at the Poly - also seems like a much more cohesive, easer sale for people who know nothing about DVC.

 

[Sandisw]

Legitimate question, no snark - Riviera was marketed as the Grand Floridian of the EPCOT area. Do you think they are happy that they have to “price it right” to keep sales on par with the actual Grand?
I think it is possible, and I think they may know this, that without restrictions RR would be the hottest purchase right now. How could you beat a world class resort with Skyliner access that just happens to have the longest contract length for EPCOT and HS? Granted, they could be playing a very long game and it might not matter. However, has ANYTHING the current regime has done even hint they are, given the option, going to choose long-term gains over fast cash?

i think they knew that the sales would look different so I do think they are content.

The piece that will never be able to overcome and know what it might look like is the pandemic. Sales were very strong until that…competitive with the best of them and it’s the same resort it is now.

So, I do think that has played a big role…as well as what everyone is dealing with…that has tempered overall. sales. Plus, the $1350 discount on 150 points is not what I consider a huge discount to sway people away from VGF if they restrictions were the issue.

I think what current sales show is that VGF was very popular to start with current owners…and then it became less popular since RIV is outselling it.

To go back, when we had sales of RIV in the 70Ks it was deemed to be a failure by some…now, we have the flagship hotel selling in the same number of points….would you not think that DVD would be disappointed in this as well?

Restrictions we’re a long term game and not short term. Reflections got scrapped, and that threw a big wrench in that plan…

As I said, BPK would not be a thing right now had that not happens…so I think the fact that was done and rolled in should be seen for what it most likely was…a stop gap situation until VDH went on sale.

Poly tower appears to be the Reflections replacement and why I think it will be what gets the plan back on track…

If restrictions was a big concern, why are they not gone? DVD has he power to remove them at will…yet they have not…so IMO, the current sales are fine for them.

You have VGF and RIV selling right now, and people have for the past two months chosen a restricted resort over a non restricted one. If DVD is looking for a justification for them, those sales number certainly help.

To me, current sales show that restrictions are not the nail in the coffin that some feel it is and certainly not enough for DVD to drop them this quickly in the game.

Who knows what they will do, but if they were concerned, they would announce that Poly tower is going to be part of PVB.

The fact they have gone out of their way to keep it’s o vague, and 6 months in, not done anything to clear it up, is a pretty a big clue they are still on the table for the project.

 

[Sandisw]

I think it’s hard to tell. When I looked back at Animal Kingdom, AKV opened up during the Great Recession and is a similar point size to Riviera. It took 5 years for AKV to sell-out, but it also wasn’t being actively marketed. And I think it had stiffer competition because at that time BLT, VGF, SSR (treehouse expansion), AUL, VGC, and OKW were all being sold.

Sales for Riviera have picked up, but that’s also because it’s being actively marketed. Once Disney moves on to actively marketing the Disneyland Hotel and Poly Tower, I wonder how long Riviera will take to sell-out. Or maybe it’ll be an Aulani and never sell-out. Who knows?

I bought in around that time so I am not sure what you mean by AKV not being marketed, It definitely was pushed with guides as a good choice, and a less expensive option.

It was also given some nice incentives compared to BLT when I was buying in...

RIV. sales prior to the pandemic, once the resort opened, was as strong as others, and in Dec 2019, it helped propel the highest sales for December in 8 years…it sold over 125k.

In January 2020, they sold in the 180ks, and Feb 2020 was in the 130ks, but news of the pandemic was starting to emerge,

Had sales continued at that rate, it would have been on target to sell out in an appropriate timeframe.

Since it was the same resort, with the same restrctions, back then, people were buying it at quite high numbers,

Again, if I am DVD and want to continue with the strategy started with RIV, there is plenty of info around to justify it.

Its why I am not convinced they are going to abandon them for Poly tower.

When you look at VGF, it was small…half as many points as PVB..so adding to that project the way they did, and in quick time...may have been enough to not worry about doing a new association.

PVB is different with over 4 million, so making it a 6 million point resort.…on guesses what the tower will have…is a different conversation.

Again, one can see pros and cons of either decision, but it still comes down to restrictions as being the biggest decision that needs to be made because without those, there is no reason to make it new.

For all we know, it has been made and they don’t want us to know. But the fact that they didn’t tell us immediately like they did with VGF, means they have a reason to keep the decision secret.

My guess is that they want to keep the selling aspect that buying resale cuts you out of RIV and future resorts and if the Poly tower is announced as part of PVB…if that is the decision…means that marketing makes no sense.

 

[Genie+]

I think they like the advantage of leaving both possibilities for now. From their end they still have the room to pivot. Why lock it in so far in advance? Especially when that allows people to remain hopeful whether they’re rooting for same association or separate.

 

[Sandisw]

I do think you're right about the main customer are the "starry-eyed newbies". Are there any stats we can see about how many total points are sold as add-ons vs new members? I'm guessing new contracts (by volume of points) FAR outweighs add-ons and resale combined for active resorts in Florida.

Most of this discussion seems to be that anyone buying the Tower has no interest in the original resorts...and I don't think that's true, especially for new "starry eyed" buyers.
Poly1 has something that Poly2 will never have...LOCATION. Location to the main house - location to the monorail. Heck, even location to the TTC for people who want to walk over to pick up the monorail to Epcot. Making it all one association gives the newbie the ultimate flexibility in staying choices at the Poly - also seems like a much more cohesive, easer sale for people who know nothing about DVC.

For the August 2022 sales, about 63% of the sales for both RIV and VGF were new buyers.So, add ons are a smaller group .

I don’t think the tower is farther to the GCH than the PVB longhouses...if it is, it’s not that much.

Now, TTC, for sure. But, Poly tower owners who buy from DVD won’t be prevented from choosing the long houses at 7 months…no different than choosing any other DVC resort,

If someone really wants to be at the long houses, and not the tower, if it’s different, DVD can sell them PVB points…or what they will do is do what they have always done, push the flexibility to have it all.

I agree that having two at the same hotel makes it a bit different, but they were able to do it with CCV and BRV…they were able to get new buyers to choose CCV without home resort advantage to BRV.

CCV only sleeps 4 in studios and 1 bedrooms…which means those buyers with a family larger than that is forced into 2 bedrooms.

But they found a way to overcome losing home resort advantage to BRV, even though at BRV they would be able to stay in studios for 5.

I am pretty sure that they will be able to do that if they choose Poly tower as well.

Poly tower will also have something that the long houses don’t…it’s own dining options without going out in the rain…that alone may make those who want to be at Poly like the tower aspect better.

Its why I am considering owning there…the tower appeals to me..the long houses don’t.


One thing I am sure of, no matter what they decide, they won’t have trouble selling this at all because in the end it’s at the Poly, and is a popular MK resort.

 

[KimMcGowan]

For all we know, it has been made and they don’t want us to know. But the fact that they didn’t tell us immediately like they did with VGF, means they have a reason to keep the decision secret.

.

Maybe they are keeping it secret because it will be part of PVB and they don’t want people buying in at the cheap resale price right now. As they get closer to actual sales that start ROFR like crazy (they way they are now with places like CC) driving up the price and making direct a better choice.
FWIW, I personally think it will be a separate association.

 

[DVCsloth]

For the August 2022 sales, about 63% of the sales for both RIV and VGF were new buyers.So, add ons are a smaller group .

I don’t think the tower is farther to the GCH than the long houses at PVB longhouses...if it is, it’s not that much.

Now, TTC, for sure. But, Poly tower owners who buy from DVD won’t be prevented from choosing the long houses at 7 months…no different than choosing any other DVC resort,

If someone really wants to be at the long houses, and not the tower, if it’s different, DVD can sell them PVB points…or what they will do is do what they have always done, push the flexibility to have it all.

I agree that having two at the same hotel makes it a bit different, but they were able to do it with CCV and BRV…they were able to get new buyers to choose CCV without home resort advantage to BRV.

CCV only sleeps 4 in studios and 1 bedrooms…which means those buyers with a family larger than that is forced into 2 bedrooms.

But they found a way to overcome losing home resort advantage to BRV.

I am pretty sure that they will be able to do that if they choose Poly tower as well.

Poly tower will also have something that the long houses don’t…it’s own dining options without going out in the rain…that alone may make those who want to be at Poly like the tower aspect better.

Its why I am considering owning there…the tower appeals to me..the long houses don’t.
So, I think, no matter what they decide, they won’t have trouble selling this at all because in the end it’s at the Poly, and is a popular MK resort.

I think it would make sense for the new tower to have its own bus stop, and most likely not include it with GF anymore. The additional monorail traffic will not be a positive for GF either.