Why I HATE Southwest Airlines...

SillyOldBear said:
The only seats available were at the back of the plane and split up. I even took one of the FA to the back and explained to her that I needed to sit next to my son because I needed to raise the armrest.

You know you won't fit in one seat and you understand that with SW there is no guarantee you'll be able to sit next to your son.

I don't understand how you had the nerve to debate the issue with the GA. Your experience is the exact reason why SW has the COS policy .Clearly the SW employees that allowed you to board without purchasing a second seat are the ones who weren't doing their job.

Passengers who don't fit in one seat and aren't willing to purchase a second seat, which winds up getting refunded the vast majority of times, shouldn't fly Southwest and shouldn't hate or complain about Southwest's fair policy of requiring passengers purchase the number of seats they occupy.

It's possible the GA that let you get on the plane in PVD without buying a second seat got in trouble.
 
The only problem I have with this whole situation is WHO's decision is it that a person is too large to have only one seat? Does it go by weight? Because OP didn't mention a scale. If it goes by looks then depending on the FA, you could get a different outcome everytime. Is it only if you need a extender? This policy has way too many what if's for me. What if you didn't think you were overweight and someone told you, that you needed a second seat? What would you say then? Remember, this is up the the FA......
 
Nope, it's sort of arbitrary - for example, the OP had no problem before boarding the outbound SW flight, just on the one coming back.

As for who might be affected, go to www.southwest.com and do a search for "customer of size" or "customer of size faq". But some of what I recall is - no, just because you need a seat belt extender does not necessarily mean you're a potential COS, just as NOT needing an extender doesn't mean you'd be exempt from the rule.
 
The deciding factor is not arbitrary in the end (though enforcement may be at times). If a person cannot sit in one seat with the arm rests all the way down, a second seat is needed. A seatbelt extended does not determine it as bodies can be shaped differently.

Have a great day!
Mike :goodvibes
 

kaytieeldr said:
THAT'S not a bad idea!!! In fact, rather than out in the waiting area, and depending on the design of the airport, they could install a couple of "test" seats behind the wall that's behind the gate counter. This would give the passenger a bit of privacy and reduce their public embarrassment.

Folks those seats are EXPENSIVE and we are talking about a budget airline here. Also, there is no way that kids and stuff would not see this as a prime playground...
 
What a horrible experience for you. I am a larger framed person also and do require an extension belt due to a medical condition. It's a shame that they could not have notified you of this policy in private. It was wrong of them to discuss this in front of other passengers. I think if this is an issue with them they should also look at the size,quantity etc. of people's carry on luggage.I find this totally annoying when people try to bring all their belongings as carry on just to escape luggage pick up. I have seen people injured by falling huge bags and have myself been unable to store my carry on because of someones huge duffel bags! There are many issues that need to be addressed and maybe SWA should advertise this policy to the public in a better way to prevent hurt feelings and embarassment.
 
People have been injured by falling not so huge bags too. An attache briefcase may well cause more injury than a duffle three times the size.

Persons who are sure to be approached by a flight attendant at boarding on the subject of needing a second seat usually saw for themselves they needed a second seat on their previous flight and voluntarily declined to purchase the second seat the next time.
 
kaytieeldr said:
Nope, it's sort of arbitrary - for example, the OP had no problem before boarding the outbound SW flight, just on the one coming back.

.

This is not exactly true... the OP just got a nice FA on the flight down. As she indicated the FAs had to "bribe" someone with free drinks to move to a middle seat someplace so she and her son could sit next to each other. And it was so that she could raise the armrest as she explained. While that FA was nice, she was not required to do anything. On other flights OP might have just been escorted off... she got lucky.
 
CarolA said:
This is not exactly true... the OP just got a nice FA on the flight down. As she indicated the FAs had to "bribe" someone with free drinks to move to a middle seat someplace so she and her son could sit next to each other. And it was so that she could raise the armrest as she explained. While that FA was nice, she was not required to do anything. On other flights OP might have just been escorted off... she got lucky.

What is also sad that someone had to be bribed with a free drink to let a mother sit with her 5yo. That should be a given. I would not fly without my 5yo sitting right next to me if I needed more room or not.
 
LisaNJ25 said:
What is also sad that someone had to be bribed with a free drink to let a mother sit with her 5yo. That should be a given. I would not fly without my 5yo sitting right next to me if I needed more room or not.

Actually what is sad is how rude the OP was. SW doesn't offer assigned seats. She got to the gate 5 minutes before the plane left. Everyone had already boarded the plane. Even if you had assigned seats with another airline the OP got to the gate so late there is a chance her seats would have been re-assigned.

Parents who want to sit with their children normally make sure they get an "A" BP and if they don't at least make sure they're near the front of the line for their boarding group. They don't board after everyone else and then expect the FA to persuade others to move.

I agree the rule may not be enforced uniformly but in this case the OP was honest enough to say she can't fly with the armrest down. This is not a borderline call. OP caused the embarrassment when she decided to debate the GA instead of just buying the extra seat when she was told to.
 
Mykelogan said:
The deciding factor is not arbitrary in the end (though enforcement may be at times). If a person cannot sit in one seat with the arm rests all the way down, a second seat is needed. A seatbelt extended does not determine it as bodies can be shaped differently.

But by the time a person can sit in an actual seat and prove that he either does or does not need another seat, he has already been forced into paying for one at check-in, based on the check-in person's arbitrary perception of thier size. That is is problem with the policy.
 
pospisil said:
But by the time a person can sit in an actual seat and prove that he either does or does not need another seat, he has already been forced into paying for one at check-in, based on the check-in person's arbitrary perception of thier size. That is is problem with the policy.
------------

If a COS has even the slightest inkling that it may be an issue, wouldn't it make sense to include the cost of an additional seat in their travel budget "just in case"? Much the same as if you were driving a long distance (let's say from NY to Fl) where a responsible person would budget in an "emergency" fund for car repairs or whatever else might befall them? If you don't need the extra dollars, fine you still have them (or in the case of the airline, they are refunded) but if you do need them, you won't be caught in a jam.. Unless a COS knows for a fact that they are going to lose a significant amount of weight prior to traveling, it's up to them to "keep their bases covered" - not the airline..
 
My feeling is that by now the average SW gate agent knows if you are going to fit or not... they started enforcing this rule over a year ago... The SW agents have probably fought this battle a lot LOL!

C.Ann, a "repsonsible" person would budget a pad for "car issues" etc... but.... in real life it just doesn't happen. The Atlanta airport was shut down the other night for several hours due to a storm. In those cases the airline does not have to pay for your hotel, but DL was giving out "discount' coupons. The local media interviewed at least two familes returning from Florida (probably Disney) who "had no more money or credit cards" and could not afford one night in a hotel so they were sleeping in the airport.... I budgeted for a trip to Europe with a group of Girl Scouts this year. I included several hundred dollars per girl as an Emergency pad... they got it back I didn't need it. I met another troop leader there... they had NO extra money in thier budget.. I would have been scared to death.. what if we were delayed going or coming and I needed extra hotel/food money???
 
There are some reasons to dislike SWA ( unassigned seating, pre-boarding circus, carry-on bags that are obviously too large to be carry-on bags, etc ) but the fact remains they have low fares and non-stop flights to the places I want to go. Not to mention that if plans change and I have to cancel my air travel, they don't charge me anything for cancelling or changing my flight plans. So until the other airlines get a clue and take the things people do like about SWA and combine them with assigned seating, I'll be flying SWA for the price and non-stop flights. I'll just deal with the rest of the stuff until another airline comes up with a better deal.

In the OP's case, it seems like some SWA employees could also stand a course in common sense. Hmmm... plane half full. Plenty of available seats... why make a big deal of it in this case? Obviously a "stepford" personality who would rather quote rules than use common sense to resolve the situation. Which in this case wasn't even a situation until the rule quoting SWA employee stuck a nose into it.

Oh well, just another thing to deal with while waiting for the other airlines to get a clue.
 
I'm sorry that the op was embarassed. That must have been hard for you. I can sympathize with that. But, if you had to have the arm rest up, then you could not fit into the seat and should have been required to buy a 2nd seat. With SW, there are no guarantees that you can sit with your family. Sorry, but I agree with SW here. I just wish they didn't embarass you.
 
Customer of Size Q&A

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Is the policy unique or new to Southwest Airlines?
No, other carriers have similar policies, but to the best of our knowledge, no other carrier offers a refund after travel. We’ve followed this policy for 24 years of our 33 years of operation, but only became more vigilant regarding the additional purchase over the last two years when we began seeing an increase in the number of valid complaints from passengers who traveled without full access to the seat purchased because a large Customer infringed upon the adjacent seating space.
Why ask large Customers to purchase additional seating?
We could no longer ignore complaints from Customers who traveled without full access to the seat purchased due to encroachment by a large seatmate whose body extended into the neighboring seat. These Customers had uncomfortable (and sometimes painful) travel experiences, and it is our responsibility to seek resolution to prevent this problem.
What is the cost of the additional seating?
If the Customer is holding an advance purchase, discounted fare, the second seat will be sold at the same discounted fare. If the Customer has purchased one of our low, unrestricted full fares, the second seat will be sold at the Child's Fare.
What is the definitive gauge for a Customer of size?
The armrest is the definitive gauge, as it serves as the boundary between seats.
How do I qualify for and request a refund of the additional seat purchase?
As long as the flight does not oversell (having more confirmed Customers waiting to board an aircraft than seats on the aircraft), we will refund the additional seat purchase after travel. A Refund Advice Slip, a guide for conveniently requesting refunds (via telephone or letter), is provided to the Customer of size at checkin. And, if it appears a flight will oversell, the option to purchase a second seat and travel on a less full flight is available.
Are there other reasons to purchase additional seating?
Yes, Customers wishing to secure in an aircraft seat a musical item, a child restraint device for an infant, etc. must purchase an additional ticket. However, these Customers have other "options" such as holding an infant under the age of two as a lap child or placing the instrument in an onboard stowage space or in the cargo hold, and we are sensitive to fact that a large Customer has no option regarding seating space. For that reason, we offer a refund of the additional seat purchased (by a Customer of size) as long as the flight does not oversell.
Won't this be embarrassing to the large Customer and the Employee?
It’s tough to speak privately in an airport setting, and because a discussion about size is sensitive, we’ve cautioned our Employees to use discretion. Yes, it’s difficult to deliver or receive a sensitive message, and to alleviate confusion, we encourage Customers with unique seating needs to proactively purchase additional seating (again, this is to notify us of the unique need). We ask this to accommodate our Customers in comfort and avoid embarrassing conversation. Ultimately, it is the Customer’s responsibility to communicate with us upfront (at the time of booking) about his/her seating needs so that we may best serve him/her and all others onboard.
I am a large person and use a seatbelt extension, but I fit in one aircraft seat. Do I have to purchase two seats?
Our policy does not focus on weight, and the seatbelt extension is not the determining factor. We use the ability to lower the armrests as the gauge, as the armrests are truly the definitive boundary between each seat.
Are all overweight people subject to the policy?
Many Americans are "overweight" or "clinically obese." A number of overweight or obese people occupy only one seat. In fact, many Customers may use a seatbelt extension but occupy only one seat, and these Customers would not be asked to reserve a second seat. If a Customer cannot lower the armrest (and is unable to comfortably travel with it in the down position), he/she is required to pay for the additional seat occupied. Again, we will offer a refund if the flight does not oversell.
I’m large but can be seated with the armrests down. Aren’t your Employees wrong to question me?
If a concern exists, we shouldn’t ignore it even if it’s difficult for both parties to discuss. Condoning an unsafe, cramped seating arrangement onboard our aircraft is far more inappropriate than simply questioning a Customer’s fit in our seats.
Why not make your seats wider or add a few wide seats on your aircraft?
Our ongoing goal is to operate a low-fare, low cost airline, and the costs of reconfiguring our fleet would be staggering and would ultimately reflect in the form of higher fares for our Customers. Purchasing two seats on Southwest Airlines is significantly less expensive than purchasing one first class seat on another airline.
If a flight is "open," why are you charging for an additional seat?
A Customer of size has no way of knowing at the time of booking if his/her flights will be full. The inconsistency of charging for the extra seat on one occasion and not others leaves the Customer not knowing what to expect and not having a full understanding of our policy. Thus, we require the additional purchase despite booking levels.
Why can't two large Customers share their second seat?
Open seating cannot guarantee that there will be an entire row open for two Customers to sit together and share the middle seat on each leg of the trip.
Why can't a large Customer sit with a family member who doesn't mind being encroached upon or a small child/person who doesn't take a full seat?
Open seating cannot guarantee that two people will be able to sit together. In addition, we must treat the smaller person (despite willingness or personal relationship) as a valued Customer who deserves the use of a full seat. Most importantly, we have to consider the safety aspect of the family member whose movement (especially in the event of an emergency) could be compromised if encroached on by a large seatmate.
Isn't this policy just another way to increase your revenue?
No, we are not "making money" from this policy. In addition to giving the Customer a refund for the second seat, we are absorbing the administrative costs (staffing and processing) of issuing the refund. 98 percent of extra seat purchases qualify for a refund, as a refund request is declined only in the event of an oversale that causes us to deny transportation to a confirmed Customer (to whom we must issue denied boarding compensation).
If a Customer has broad shoulders, will he/she have to buy a second seat?
Again, if a Customer cannot lower the armrests, the additional purchase is necessary. Simply having broad shoulders would not necessarily prevent another Customer from occupying adjoining seat. The upper body can be adjusted, but the portion of the body in the actual seating and armrest area doesn’t have this flexibility.
Why isn’t this information on your tickets, referenced on the booking/reservations pages of your web site, or questioned by your Reservations Employees?
We estimate that the Customer of size policy affects far less than half a percent of our Customers, and ultimately, it is the responsibility of a Customer with a unique and unusual need to communicate with us upfront so that we may best serve him/her and all others onboard. We won’t know of an unusual need unless the Customer tells us.
Doesn't your policy violate the Americans with Disabilities Act or the Air Carrier Access Act?
Interstate airline travel is specifically excluded from Title II of the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) by Section 12141(2). Airline travel is instead covered by the Air Carrier Access Act, 49 U.S.C. 1374(c) and the regulations implementing the Act issued by the Department of Transportation as 14 CFR Part 382, et seq. The Air Carrier Access Act (ACAA) preceded the ADA, and Congress excluded air carriers and other air transportation services from the scope of ADA. As regulated under 14 CFR §382.38 Seating accommodations (i) "Carriers are not required to furnish more than one seat per ticket or to provide a seat in a class of service other than the one the passenger has purchased."
Can I be preapproved as needing only one seat?
Because size can fluctuate, we are unable to give blanket authorization.
How will you ensure no one takes the seat beside me if I've purchased a second seat?
The Customer who has purchased two seats must be an active participant in preserving his/her additional seat. We encourage Customers of size to preboard to locate adequate seating, placing the Reserved Seat Document in the adjacent seat. Our Ground Operations and Inflight Employees communicate about special needs Customers, and if a Customer of size needs seating assistance, he/she should ask an Employee for help.
I'm pregnant, will I have to purchase two seats?
A woman who is pregnant does not occupy two seats if she can lower the armrests.
Can I check in using a RAPID CHECK-IN kiosk or online checkin?
Because a Customer of size has special seating needs; is encouraged to preboard; and needs specific boarding/seating documents, these Customers are required to check in with a Customer Service Agent at the ticket counter or at the gate. A Skycap can assist a Customer of size with baggage and provide an escort to the ticket counter, and a Customer of size wishing to bypass the ticket counter may simply print a Security Document online for access through the security checkpoint. At checkin, a Customer of size will receive a boarding pass, Reserved Seat Document, Refund Advice Slip, and preboarding direction.
Isn't this policy discriminatory toward large Customers?
Southwest Airlines does not condone discrimination in any form. We have Employees and Customers of all races, ethnicity, religions, shapes, and sizes. Our Mission and our responsibility per our Contract of Carriage is to provide safe and comfortable air transportation for each and every Customer. This policy has been upheld in court and is supported by the Department of Transportation’s stance that the purchase of a single ticket offers the use of a single se
 
LisaNJ25 said:
I would of been pissed...What if you were short on money right after the vacation and did not have the funds to buy the extra ticket?

This should not be an issue when you are traveling with other family members and you are sitting together.

You should of said you wanted half of your 5yos ticket refunded because he only takes half of a seat.


Well, by watching "Airline" I would know that I'd HAVE to come up with the money somehow or they wouldn't let me board - when this situation happened with a passenger on the show, they filmed and aired him trying to contact his girlfriend at home to get her to charge the ticket.

On Southwest, each passenger is guaranteed a seat, not necessarily a seat where or with whom they want to sit. GOOD chance on SW that the family would not be able to sit together.

And the five year old is entitled to the entire seat purchases on behalf of him, for both comfort and safety.


jarastel said:
In the OP's case, it seems like some SWA employees could also stand a course in common sense. Hmmm... plane half full. Plenty of available seats... why make a big deal of it in this case?

Consistency. For whatever reason, the OP was not required to purchase an additional seat on the outbound flight but was on the return flight.
If Southwest only enforced the second-seat rule based on how full each flight was, you'd have dozens of people complaining "but they didn't make me do this last time"!
 
LisaNJ25 said:
What is also sad that someone had to be bribed with a free drink to let a mother sit with her 5yo. That should be a given. I would not fly without my 5yo sitting right next to me if I needed more room or not.

Then you might well be better off flying a different carrier.

Personally I wouldn't give up my aisle seat so they could sit together, it's not my problem that they couldn't get to the airport ontime, or that the OP needs to sit with her son due to her need to use part of his seat. It's also not my problem that people with little kids don't have the common sense to realize that on SWA they could very easily end up not sitting together.

Anne
 
I'm sorry, but I haven't read the entire thread.

But in response to the OP, I'm going to side with the Airlines on this.

When I buy a ticket, I am renting a seat from the airline. I expect to be reasonably comfortable. I was on a flight from Salt Lake to Cincy this time last. My friend had the window and I had the middle seat. The Aisle seat was taken by an individual who was at least 350, maybe closer to 400. At that size, he was encroaching on my seat space and I wound up having to lean the other way the entire flight. I was stuck b/c the flight was filled to capacity.
 
How terribly embarrassing for you! At least they should have asked to speak with you in private.
 












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