Why I don't like free dining

[HayGan]

I just did the previously mentioned quote for Aug 16 -22 at POR std view for 2 adults and 2 children. If you select 1 day passes (the system automatically selects a 7 day for you so you have to change it) the price is $1,304.40 or $217.40 per night. That includes free dining.

I personally do not get the anger and frustration over the whole free dining promo. Promotions like that are in place to get people who may not normally visit WDW into their empty rooms and restaurants during a normally slow time. They already know they will have us DVC members there at some time. They have our money - they don't need to entice us to come back. DVC is prepayment of accomodations - nothing more.

I would suggest for those who don't like it - rent out your points and use those proceeds to book a room during that time. Or if it is that upsetting, just sell it and go back to your regular hotel rooms. We will will stick with our full kitchens, seperate rooms for the kids, LARGE bathrooms and king size beds

 

[Chuck S]

ITo the person who commented on my breakdown of the extra money I have invested into Disney....

DVC Ownership is NOT an investment into Disney. Stockholders have invested into Disney. DVCers have purchased a pre-paid vacation plan in a particular resort, nothing less, nothing more.

DVC reservations are considered room only reservations at a discounted rate, just like Annual Pass Holders and Florida residents, we can add the dining plan for full price to our discounted reservations. Surely you realized this prior to your purchase. A standard view studio at BLT runs 137 points per week. Estimating a $2 per year buy in ($100/50 years) and a $4 anual dues ($3.67 for 2009) at $6 per point that is $822.

A $149 standard view POR room for those 7 days is $1043 plus $135.59 tax, for a total of $1178.59. Meaning even point heavy BLT is a 30% discount compared to cash. So your "free dining" would be costing you $359.59. So while the dining plan may be costing you more than $359.59 at POR, it is less than staying at BLT and purchasing the dining plan for your family.

But comparing a Moderate to a studio is apples to oranges.

For a true comparision, look at the cash price of the BLT Studio with free dining compared to a point stay. Any other comparison is slanted one way or the other...you really have to make an "in kind" comparison.

 

[d-r]

They use it during the low season to try to get people to make a trip, and to keep the restaurants open when they wouldn't be very busy.

It has resulted in lowered quality at the restaurants, and I think higher prices.

A few years ago, for example, most of the buffet type places had special menus for actual holidays - like Christmas day, or new years. They would have some special things, and it would cost more than a typical day.

Then they started having "holiday pricing" that went for a couple of weeks around the holiday.

Now it isn't even "holiday pricing" anymore, it is "seasonal pricing." The whole month of June, from mid-May to Mid-July, is "seasonal pricing." What they are doing is taking a time that is very busy, and charging people more, to make up for the money they are loosing when they give out the free dining to get people to visit during a slow time.

And now people expect to get "free dining" if they travel in september. We've all seen the cutbacks on the menus.

That's why I don't like it.

 

[wulfekamp]

Rutgers I understand how you feel. A quick story. I have banked at the same bank for over 20 years. Everytime I go in there there giving grills, luggage, gps units to new customers. all I get is a card wanting me to get people to bank there. A few months ago I borrowed money to buy my daughter a car. I borrowed the money at a differnt bank. When they asked me why I said your so busy getting new customers you forgot about the ones you already have.

 

[rutgers1]

DVC Ownership is NOT an investment into Disney. Stockholders have invested into Disney. DVCers have purchased a pre-paid vacation plan in a particular resort, nothing less, nothing more.

DVC reservations are considered room only reservations at a discounted rate, just like Annual Pass Holders and Florida residents, we can add the dining plan for full price to our discounted reservations. Surely you realized this prior to your purchase. A standard view studio at BLT runs 137 points per week. Estimating a $2 per year buy in ($100/50 years) and a $4 anual dues ($3.67 for 2009) at $6 per point that is $822.

A $149 standard view POR room for those 7 days is $1043 plus $135.59 tax, for a total of $1178.59. Meaning even point heavy BLT is a 30% discount compared to cash. So your "free dining" would be costing you $359.59. So while the dining plan may be costing you more than $359.59 at POR, it is less than staying at BLT and purchasing the dining plan for your family.

But comparing a Moderate to a studio is apples to oranges.

For a true comparision, look at the cash price of the BLT Studio with free dining compared to a point stay. Any other comparison is slanted one way or the other...you really have to make an "in kind" comparison.

Chuck, I haven't crunched numbers at all, and to tell you the truth, I don't think I would quite know how to do it if I tried. However, I think your example doesn't take into account two things:
1) interest on the initial investment had it not been given in a lump sum to Disney
2) the fact that a large number of DVC members would not vacation at Disney every year if they hadn't bought, so comparing one week to 50 years might not be the best comparison

In the end, I am very happy with my decision to join DVC. My happiness won't, however, stop me from airing my opinions and suggesting improvements, as I am 100% certain that Member Services reps read these boards. From my perspective, Disney is indeed doing someone a favor in letting them buy DVC if that person was already planning on visiting Disney every year for the full length of their contract and staying in upgraded rooms. If that person is like most people, though, they are doing Disney a HUGE favor by buying into DVC, since their vacation dollars would have gone elsewhere otherwise. I am just about the biggest Disney nut that I know, but given the expense of flying my family down to Disney, odds are that we would only go every other year if we didn't have DVC (which is what we were donig pre DVC). Now, if you added in all of the extra money in Disney's pocket that my extra trips will bring them, then you can see that Disney is making out QUITE well and could, therefore, afford to throw me some extra perks.

 

[wulfekamp]

Rutgers1 Just a suggestion. If your going to post anything even slightly negative on here you better have thick skin. I think you have seen what I'm talking about. Some don't take it well.

 

[jco_direwolf]

Chuck, I haven't crunched numbers at all, and to tell you the truth, I don't think I would quite know how to do it if I tried. However, I think your example doesn't take into account two things:
1) interest on the initial investment had it not been given in a lump sum to Disney
2) the fact that a large number of DVC members would not vacation at Disney every year if they hadn't bought, so comparing one week to 50 years might not be the best comparison

1) That variable is impossible to estimate, except for specific cases. Some people pay cash, some people pay for the whole 10 years, and some people pay off at rates in between.

Estimating the cost as $100/pt isn't bad. Since some people bought 15 years ago at $45/pt, and some people bought at $109(?) with a bonus of 1 dev point per point purchased.

Now to be honest, instead of distributing the cost uniformly, may not be correct. It might be better to put it on some amortization schedule (where it's worth more year 1 than year 49...But I'm not a CPA, and I'd rather keep it simple.

So I disagree, 1 is a valid complaint with our analysis that a point this year is worth about $6/pt. I think that is very fair upper limit (ie worst case.) Even if you add in the 10% APR, that only adds about $0.20/pt ($2 * 1.1 = 2.20) which is easily within the $4/pt MF (since the average is something more like $3.40/pt)

2) I don't see any issue with comparing a week to a week, you already pointed out you think a week at POR is the same as a week at BLT. (Which even Disney doesn't consider this a fair.) If you wouldn't be coming to WDW every year, then you shouldn't have bought enough points to come every year... maybe every 2 year or 3 years (and yes people do this...)

So at anyrate...I think our analysis is about right.

johno

 

[CarolAnnC]

Actually during that time period the rack rate quoted for a standard view is $149.

That is without tax. You must include the tax to use it for a comparison. Also, I believe you must stay 5 nights for free dining, someone will correct me if I am wrong. So, I took five nights in August, off the Disney website for a quote and received $174 per night room only...that is a water view, without tax. Now, at the very least you need to price a water view at POR as I did in order to come close to a comparison. Otherwise, just go price out Pop Century....


I am glad we are all remaining civil on this thread and discussing without arguments, BTW, as that way we can continue the discussion here.

IMHO, DVC units have full kitchens and part of the enjoyment is to use the kitchen for some of the meals. Free dining and DVC just don't sound right in the same sentence to me.... I can't think of any other timeshares that would offer their occupants "free dining" ....

 

[jco_direwolf]

Rutgers1 Just a suggestion. If your going to post anything even slightly negative on here you better have thick skin. I think you have seen what I'm talking about. Some don't take it well.

I think it has more to be an honest.

$149/night didn't include the Tax
$149/night didn't include the required 1 day pass per person.
And he is comparing Moderates to Deluxe resorts (which I'm willing to do) although I think it's a bit unfair.

$10/pt is a rental price, not a what DVC owner should have paid.

$6/pt is about what owners paid, and includes our MF for this year which includes our taxes.

So if you post something making the argument that a Moderate Room with Free Dining is cheaper than DVC room only. I'm going to check your math and call you out on it. If I don't agree with you. I am willing to listen and correct mistakes I make.

johno

 

[Hazzard101]

I too would like to see where the $150/night is booking is...

Because I just looked at 1 day admission, 5 nights, Sunday-Saturday in Aug with free dining for 2 adults @POR standard view, and I ended up with 194.65/night ($1,167.90.)

We have APs so we don't need it the passes.

If I booked DAKV studio it would cost me 91 for a SV, or $546 ($100/50 [buy-in] + $4 [MF]) or $91 per day...A 1 Bedroom would be 182 pts or $1092.

johno

I believe you have to buy at least a one day pass in order to get the free DP. I could be wrong

 

[jco_direwolf]

I believe you have to buy at least a one day pass in order to get the free DP. I could be wrong

Yep that is what I'm saying... The "Standard" for when you have an AP is to book it with a 1 day pass, and then you can save it, and use on another trip or just use it against your AP renewal when the time comes.

But my point of the post was Free Dining with a stay at POR is NOT $150 (or $149/night) it's ~$195/night.

A stay at DAKV studio with a Savannah View (where I own, and a Deluxe resort) is $91 per night (Based on the points this year costing me about $6/pt.) Or about $100 per night cheaper than staying at POR with a standard view and free dining. The AP change the calculation slightly (But they really just make the free dining look like a worst deal instead of a better one.)

johno

 

[wulfekamp]

If joining this Thread already in progress. Here is what we have learned so far.
1. DVC is perfect.
2. If you think Dvc is not perfect see number 1
3. BLT is a DVc resort not a sandwich.
4. If you are loosing a discussion Don't bring math into it. The judges will deduct 10 style points plus it gets confusing.
5. rutgers1 is currently out numbered 10 to 1.
6. Don't compare a DVC resort to a moderate with free dinning. (Its a apples and orange thing).
7. Don't make negative comments or you will be discussed to death.
8. Dvc is about better rooms NOT perks. Be grateful for what you get.
9. See number 1 again. ( its been a while you might have forgotten )
10. DVC members don't deserve free dinning because there is no up side in doing so.
11. If you think you understand (insert math here) that will prevent you from understanding.

Ok we are all updated. Put fresh batteries in your calculator at this time.

(GO)

 

[gkrykewy]

If joining this Thread already in progress. Here is what we have learned so far.
1. DVC is perfect.
2. If you think Dvc is not perfect see number 1

What a silly strawman. I sympathize with OP in this case, but really.

 

[DebbieB]

12. Disney is a business, not a charity. They only do things that produce an upside for them. They don't offer deals just to be nice. That's the reality.

 

[jco_direwolf]

wulfekamp, The OP said

I had read through some of the threads where people complained about it, and I had read the responses, which seemed to make sense to me. In particular, the argument that the dining people were paying "rack rates" made sense. However, last night, I decided to look into the difference between staying at my studio and staying at a regular room at my favorite Disney hotel, POR, during my upcoming visit in August. As it turns out, the room at POR only costs about $150 a night, including the free dining. For my family of four, that is almost the cost of dining alone. In other words, if we were to book at POR, we'd get the room for just about the price of food alone, which we'd have to pay for anyway. Under this scenario, considering I am just as happy in a SSR studio as I am in a POR hotel room, my DVC investment doesn't look so hot.

I and others have pointed out about $150/night is correct. Before you buy the required 1 day passes, and add in taxes. Some have argued, and I've not been in that group, that POR and SSR or BLT or any DVC are two different rates. In fact my argument has been EVEN with the difference the DVC owner is spending about $100 per night less.

Now $100 per night, does not quite cover buying the DDP for 4 ($41*2+$11*2 = $104, or perhaps $134 if you have to buy 3 Adults.) I would argue I would rather stay at a DVC resort, than a moderate, and have a $100 per night that I can spend how I see fit, because I already know we spend less than $100/night average on our trips for food.

Yes I resort to doing some math (Why is it if you bring math into you are making it hard to understand? I'm not doing anything complex, just the 4 basic arithmetic operations), but the OP was the one saying he is paying more but getting less. I'm just trying to understand how he is doing his math to make that argument. I think his analysis was lacking, and I countered with my own.

By comparing the minimal free dining package, at a moderate resort (POR standard view) to what I would do DAVK (Savanah view) using what I think is a fair value for my points this year (which I've used a number of times, I don't believe it to be a lowball number, I think $6/pt is about right this year.) I still can't get the OPs math to work out that the Free Dining promotion is cheaper (nor can I get down to his about $150/night number) than me using DVC points.

I know I'm a critic of the DDP, because it doesn't work for my family. If it were some more flat credit (say a model where you got 10 meal credits/day, and a "snack" was 1 credit, and CS was in the 3-5 range and TS was 5+, I might be able to get behind it. But the Snack + CS + TS model doesn't work FOR US.)

But hey if it was really free, or less than what I feel a fair cost of our DVC membership is. I would be here saying... wow we have paid $X, and we just get the room. People paying $Y are getting room plus ticket media plus free dining, I'm totally going to rent my points for the year and use this promotion.

However, right now I'm on the other side. I'm here saying... wow DVC is looking pretty okay to me. (Well for us it's DVC + APs + DDE.)

johno

 

[dvcdisney]

Rutgers I understand how you feel. A quick story. I have banked at the same bank for over 20 years. Everytime I go in there there giving grills, luggage, gps units to new customers. all I get is a card wanting me to get people to bank there. A few months ago I borrowed money to buy my daughter a car. I borrowed the money at a differnt bank. When they asked me why I said your so busy getting new customers you forgot about the ones you already have.

Excellent anecdote!

We have done this many times. As I have often mentioned to my financial advisor, I will be as loyal as it benefits me. He has always agreed. It's important that they know that they have to treat us well in order to keep us as clients/customers.

I feel the same way about everything. I love my DVC membership. But if I find that they are not "appreciating our business", the relationship ends.

I also have been a proponent of giving DVC members the 180 day ADRs, it would be especially beneficial during the free dining, of which we cannot participate but still have to compete for the ADRs. I, too, have written this everywhere. Last year I did not have any problems getting my ADRs because I had booked it 180 days prior. This is waaayyyy before the free dining dates were announced. This is one of the problems with the ADRs this year. Instead of taking all of us who do not participate in Free Dining out of the volumes of calls, we're right in there with everyone creating a MESS.

I don't believe that the OP is asking too much. I think it's fine to want a perk that provides more leverage towards keeping or purchasing DVC. I don't personally think that they will since it would cost them financially to provide a separate DDP discount for DVC members. But it's not an unreasonable request. He didn't say we should have Free Dining as well (which I would love, but that's unrealistic at this point). He just suggested a discount of some sorts. I agree that Disney is getting a large committment financially, not just the inital purchase and annual dues, but all the money we will be spending there throughout the life of the membership. We have done 3 add - ons since we joined 8 years ago, and I'm sure DVC is counting on that. But they do have consider the fact that if members don't feel "appreciated", add ons and referrals will decrease.

But, I say this, if DVC did provide a DDP discount, I would have a whole new appreciation for them. And then, I could see another add-on in the near future.

 

[Chuck S]

But there are some dining discounts for DVC, just not on the DDP. AP holders don't get a discount on the DDP, and the argument can be made that AP holders make more Disney trips per year than many DVCers. Stockholders, who've actually invested $$ into Disney don't get any perks or discounts, and I'm sure many of them travel to Disney. Why should a timeshare owner get discounts.

I'm sorry if some of you don't like the math. But it's what you have to base costs upon for accurate comparisons if you're stating one is cheaper. Otherwise, it is like saying the giant package box of cereal or chips HAS to be cheaper because its bigger, and that certainly isn't always true. Often the smaller packages are less per unit than the larger packages.

As far as comparing moderates to DVC, why stop there? Why not compare the price of POP or All-Stars to DVC, or the Red Roof in Kissimmee with a free breakfast?

 

[DebbieB]

Excellent anecdote!

We have done this many times. As I have often mentioned to my financial advisor, I will be as loyal as it benefits me. He has always agreed. It's important that they know that they have to treat us well in order to keep us as clients/customers.

I feel the same way about everything. I love my DVC membership. But if I find that they are not "appreciating our business", the relationship ends.

I also have been a proponent of giving DVC members the 180 day ADRs, it would be especially beneficial during the free dining, of which we cannot participate but still have to compete for the ADRs. I, too, have written this everywhere. Last year I did not have any problems getting my ADRs because I had booked it 180 days prior. This is waaayyyy before the free dining dates were announced. This is one of the problems with the ADRs this year. Instead of taking all of us who do not participate in Free Dining out of the volumes of calls, we're right in there with everyone creating a MESS.

I don't believe that the OP is asking too much. I think it's fine to want a perk that provides more leverage towards keeping or purchasing DVC. I don't personally think that they will since it would cost them financially to provide a separate DDP discount for DVC members. But it's not an unreasonable request. He didn't say we should have Free Dining as well (which I would love, but that's unrealistic at this point). He just suggested a discount of some sorts. I agree that Disney is getting a large committment financially, not just the inital purchase and annual dues, but all the money we will be spending there throughout the life of the membership. We have done 3 add - ons since we joined 8 years ago, and I'm sure DVC is counting on that. But they do have consider the fact that if members don't feel "appreciated", add ons and referrals will decrease.

But, I say this, if DVC did provide a DDP discount, I would have a whole new appreciation for them. And then, I could see another add-on in the near future.

The bank comparison is a good one, I hate it when my bank offers deals for new deposits only. The thing with DVC is they have a unique product. You can buy another timeshare like Sheraton or Hyatt but you will not get the same park benefits. That's OK if you don't go to the parks but most members do.

Regarding referrals or add-on's, I don't think they are concerned about that. They are selling out WDW resorts as fast as they can build them and bringing in big profits. They don't need to throw out perks to sell it. They are increasing prices in a bad economy and getting away with it. If they start having problems selling, that's when you may see offers or perks come out.

I'm not defending DVC or saying it's perfect, it's just after 10 years being a member, I've learned to accept the reality of the business. Accept that I signed a contract for certain things and not more. When we got the AP discount I was thrilled, way more than we had before (10% off length of stay). I'm grateful for that, it was a "bonus". I'm not going to whine that we deserve more than we signed for.

 

[Deb & Bill]

...I'm not defending DVC or saying it's perfect, it's just after 10 years being a member, I've learned to accept the reality of the business. Accept that I signed a contract for certain things and not more. When we got the AP discount I was thrilled, way more than we had before (10% off length of stay). I'm grateful for that, it was a "bonus". I'm not going to whine that we deserve more than we signed for.

Bingo. That's the same for us. We've been members since 1997. We get a nice place to stay for our annual trips to WDW.

 

[Chuck S]

The bank comparison is a good one, I hate it when my bank offers deals for new deposits only. The thing with DVC is they have a unique product. You can buy another timeshare like Sheraton or Hyatt but you will not get the same park benefits. That's OK if you don't go to the parks but most members do.

Regarding referrals or add-on's, I don't think they are concerned about that. They are selling out WDW resorts as fast as they can build them and bringing in big profits. They don't need to throw out perks to sell it. They are increasing prices in a bad economy and getting away with it. If they start having problems selling, that's when you may see offers or perks come out.

I'm not defending DVC or saying it's perfect, it's just after 10 years being a member, I've learned to accept the reality of the business. Accept that I signed a contract for certain things and not more. When we got the AP discount I was thrilled, way more than we had before (10% off length of stay). I'm grateful for that, it was a "bonus". I'm not going to whine that we deserve more than we signed for.

Well, the bank is an interesting analogy, but also not terribly relevant. You see, in the case of a bank, there are a ton of them out there...take your pick. A better analogy would be a cable company offering 50% of for 3 months to new customers. Chances are, you have no choice in cable providers for your area, you either have cable, or you don't. For instance, Time Warner offers a special for new Road Runner internet subscribers. In my case, there is no DSL available, and no other high speed options, just dial-up or Road Runner. Either have high speed and pay the price, or go back to dial-up.

The same with DVC, there are other timeshares, but none other "on site" that offers all the onsite services. So now you need to decide if it is worth it to buy DVC and get all those onsite services, or buy at Bonnet Creek or Marriott and not get those services.