Why do People think its okay to ruin Santa for kids? Update - p. 21, post 307

[luvsJack]

I am conflicted over this. We do not do Santa but are big believers in the spirit of the season - peace, love, giving to others etc. Christmas carols put a smile on our faces, as does working at the mission.

In my opinion teacher should not be reprimanded, fired or sued.

At the heart of the matter - what would you sue for? Your honor this woman told the truth!

I agree that she should not be fired or sued, but I do think she should be reprimanded. She overstepped her bounds.

Its really just not as black and white as "telling the truth". As has been said here by many, Santa is a belief and a tradition in many, many homes. Family beliefs and traditions should be left alone by those not in the family.

 

[bunkkinsmom]

I am conflicted over this. We do not do Santa but are big believers in the spirit of the season - peace, love, giving to others etc. Christmas carols put a smile on our faces, as does working at the mission.

In my opinion teacher should not be reprimanded, fired or sued.

At the heart of the matter - what would you sue for? Your honor this woman told the truth!

I don't know if fired is the answer either, however, at some point there has to be a line. And frankly, telling kids that their parents lied to them is way OVER that line. Frankly that is so far over the line that the line looks like a dot from there.

I would not call for resignation, but you better believe that it wouldn't take me a hot minute to be down at the school with the teacher. It would be a very civil conversation for about 20 seconds. "HI (insert teacher name here). I heard some disturbing information and I just want to make sure that I heard it correctly. Did you tell the students in your class that their parents lied to them about Santa?"

The answer to that question would dictate the next 30 minutes.

And as far as "honoring" that teacher, sorry, but I am evidently not that upstanding of a citizen. It amazes me how so many people have spoken about telling the truth. I would love to follow them around for a day and take notes. All of this holier than thou junk makes me a bit queasy. As my dear Mop-Mop would say, "Ya'll without dog crap on your shoe take the first step on the white carpet."

At any rate, I don't think that there is any reason that we have to like everybody. This teacher seems like someone I probably wouldn't like. That doesn't mean that everyone we don't like has done something to be sued over. And it's ok for them not to like me back. Regardless, I would make it quite clear to this teacher how I felt about him taking the liberty to out Santa to my kids. And he can like it or not. The difference is that I would have the opportunity to take action on how I felt in asking for my kid to change classes, or, depending on how strongly I felt, remove them from that school.

In this situation, I would just make my opinion known VIGOROUSLY to the teacher as well as the principal.

 

[kaytieeldr]

While I don't agree with asking for her job, I do believe she should be reprimanded. However, what I can't get over is the idea that this teacher can say whatever she feels, without regard for the parents or children, simply because it is FACT. I've posed questions to another poster who thought it was okay because it was FACT. So I pose similar questions to you -- if you were a closet lesbian and I knew it for a FACT, would it be okay for me to call your employer or parents and let them know? If I knew for a FACT that you had a drinking problem, would it be okay for me to call your employer and let them know? If I knew for a FACT that your husband was cheating on you, would it be okay for me to call you and gloat that he's a liar? NO, BECAUSE IT'S NONE OF MY BUSINESS!!!! That's the point of all this. It was not that teacher's business or place to tell those children anything. And specifically it was not okay for her to tell those children their parents were liars. What don't you understand about that? Someone jokingly posted that it was time to tell the kids their teacher drinks and everyone was outraged. But what if it's true? Then it's okay?

First, I want to point out I never said I agree with what the teacher did. I just can't believe the outrage and the threats to the teacher's job, wallet, and well-being here over, frankly, facts.

To answer your question: to be 100% technical, you wouldn't be reporting generally-known information about a mythical character in the normal course of life/work as the teacher did. Instead, you'd be going out of your way to disseminate specific information about a living person known to you and others in your community. You would know before you pick up the phone or open your mouth that the information might/would affect that person's life; there doesn't SEEM to be any other reason to share such information EXCEPT to cause potentially devastating reactions, without the affected person's knowledge or approval. That's NOT comparable.


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You certainly could take religion out of this thread. If a teacher in public school told my child I lied because I told them that the storks brings the babies and HE said, no that is not how it happened your parents lied to you, I would be outraged. It is my perogative as a parent to teach my children, and explain sex and babies to them when I want to. Now if my child questioned or asked the teacher, does the stork bring babies, I would want the teacher to direct them to me.

Okay, I can see that to a degree. I mean, I understand your point completely, but I truly can't see the topic coming up in the course of a normal school lesson. Not arguing at all, but what could they possibly be learning in school - especially first or second grade - where the teacher would even have the opportunity to say, "Oh, children, the stork doesn't bring babies. Your parents are lying to you." Which phrase, by the way, wasn't necessary in ANY case. The teacher in the actual incident could have certainly provided the same message without making a negative statement about the parents.

 

[kaytieeldr]

And as far as "honoring" that teacher,

No, you misunderstood. That statement had nothing to do with honoring anyone. It was the opening statement in court, in response to the poster who said the teacher should be sued Here, with respect to that poster, let me edit for punctuation:

At the heart of the matter - what would you sue for?
Defense attorney: "Your honor - this woman told the truth!"

 

[DisneyBamaFan]

First, I want to point out I never said I agree with what the teacher did. I just can't believe the outrage and the threats to the teacher's job, wallet, and well-being here over, frankly, facts...

Incompetence and a disregard for others comes with consequences. If this teacher is this clueless, then the potential loss of income would be her fault, not the fault of those that demand better for their children.

 

[mickeysgal]

To answer your question: to be 100% technical, you wouldn't be reporting generally-known information about a mythical character in the normal course of life/work as the teacher did. Instead, you'd be going out of your way to disseminate specific information about a living person known to you and others in your community. You would know before you pick up the phone or open your mouth that the information might/would affect that person's life; there doesn't SEEM to be any other reason to share such information EXCEPT to cause potentially devastating reactions, without the affected person's knowledge or approval. That's NOT comparable.
---

Absolutely comparable. This is exactly what this teacher did. She knew that she would be causing a potential devastating reaction in these children and to some degree, would affect their life - for some measure of time. Being a mythical character that is so strongly believed in, does not mean the effect wouldn't be the same as if it were a live being.

She had clear intentions to dispell the myth regardless of the consequences on the kids and what the parents would have wanted. It was not her call, it wasn't necessary, it wasn't her business, not in her "job description" so to speak. As a "teacher", she exercised extremely poor judgement and did not care what the effect this would have on these kids. Her own personal beliefs in what kids should/should not believe in took front seat. And thats where she was wrong.

 

[Mkrop]

---

Okay, I can see that to a degree. I mean, I understand your point completely, but I truly can't see the topic coming up in the course of a normal school lesson. Not arguing at all, but what could they possibly be learning in school - especially first or second grade - where the teacher would even have the opportunity to say, "Oh, children, the stork doesn't bring babies. Your parents are lying to you." Which phrase, by the way, wasn't necessary in ANY case. The teacher in the actual incident could have certainly provided the same message without making a negative statement about the parents.

Sure the topic could come up in a younger classroom, if someone around the children are pregnant. Or if a student lost a tooth and the teacher told the kids that the Tooth Fairy was not real. She crossed the line when she told the children that their parents lied to them. I dont care what the subject matter is.

And most likely this teacher is a volunteer so the worse that will happen if the parish/relgious ed director takes any action is that this perso will be dismissed, no loss of wages, no hard time finding a new job, no lawsuit etc,

 

[PrincessKsMom]

Absolutely comparable. This is exactly what this teacher did. She knew that she would be causing a potential devastating reaction in these children and to some degree, would affect their life - for some measure of time. Being a mythical character that is so strongly believed in, does not mean the effect wouldn't be the same as if it were a live being.

She had clear intentions to dispell the myth regardless of the consequences on the kids and what the parents would have wanted. It was not her call, it wasn't necessary, it wasn't her business, not in her "job description" so to speak. As a "teacher", she exercised extremely poor judgement and did not care what the effect this would have on these kids. Her own personal beliefs in what kids should/should not believe in took front seat. And thats where she was wrong.

And what exactly was her motivation? What did she gain by outing Santa to these kids and calling their parents liars? Nothing, same as I would gain by outing you. No positive consequence for me, only negative consequences for others.

 

[Northstar]

Absolutely comparable. This is exactly what this teacher did. She knew that she would be causing a potential devastating reaction in these children and to some degree, would affect their life - for some measure of time. Being a mythical character that is so strongly believed in, does not mean the effect wouldn't be the same as if it were a live being. .

I'm not trying to argue that you don't have a right to feel the way you do about this, but I have to disagree about the bolded part of your post. Truly and sincerely, it would never occur to me that finding out about Santa at the age of 7 would be seen as "devastating" or "affect their life." I had no idea that so many people took maintaining their children's belief in Santa so seriously, till I read it here on the Dis! The teacher was certainly tactless but probably not malicious, and almost certainly had no idea the outrage many would feel over this.

 

[mickeysgal]

I'm not trying to argue that you don't have a right to feel the way you do about this, but I have to disagree about the bolded part of your post. Truly and sincerely, it would never occur to me that finding out about Santa at the age of 7 would be seen as "devastating" or "affect their life." I had no idea that so many people took maintaining their children's belief in Santa so seriously, till I read it here on the Dis! The teacher was certainly tactless but probably not malicious, and almost certainly had no idea the outrage many would feel over this.

And I'm not trying to argue with you either!

I would imagine that at the age of 7 most kids are still deep in the belief stage of Santa. It would absolutely affect their life...how deep and for how long depends on the child and how strong their belief was in the beginning. Now, telling the truth about Santa to a 2 yr old isn't going to have the same general effect as telling it to a 6 yr old. By 6, most are shoulder deep into the Santa thing and depending on how strong a family does the Santa thing, telling a child at that age, may elicit a strong negative, "devastating" reaction. In a child's 6 year old world, yes, it's devastating. Especially when it's triggered too early.

Was she malicious? Yes, I believe her intent was to destroy their image of Santa by her taking it upon herself to "set them straight". She did them no good by telling them that other than to satisfy her personal view of what should/should not be believed. And she did it without permission from the parents. That's malicious.

 

[Northstar]

And I'm not trying to argue with you either!

I would imagine that at the age of 7 most kids are still deep in the belief stage of Santa. It would absolutely affect their life...how deep and for how long depends on the child and how strong their belief was in the beginning. Now, telling the truth about Santa to a 2 yr old isn't going to have the same general effect as telling it to a 6 yr old. By 6, most are shoulder deep into the Santa thing and depending on how strong a family does the Santa thing, telling a child at that age, may elicit a strong negative, "devastating" reaction. In a child's 6 year old world, yes, it's devastating. Especially when it's triggered too early.

Was she malicious? Yes, I believe her intent was to destroy their image of Santa by her taking it upon herself to "set them straight". She did them no good by telling them that other than to satisfy her personal view of what should/should not be believed. And she did it without permission from the parents. That's malicious.

Would you feel the same if she had told a class of 12-year-olds?
Probably not, because your cultural belief is that 12-year-olds are not deep into the Santa myth, and it's not going to be devastating to them, and anyway, they probably should know by now.

See, the thing is... I felt that way about 7-year-olds. They're in elementary school, they interact with older kids, they're old enough to wonder how it's possible for a guy in a red suit to fly around and get into the house without triggering the alarm system. I really thought most kids find out around this age, and also thought most parents ease up on talking up the Santa myth, knowing the kids only half-believe anyway. I wouldn't have had any idea that letting the cat out of the bag would be regarded as seriously violating cultural norms... that's why I don't think the teacher was malicious. She just had a different idea of what the Santa-knowledge timeline is.

 

[declansdad]

Would you feel the same if she had told a class of 12-year-olds?
Probably not, because your cultural belief is that 12-year-olds are not deep into the Santa myth, and it's not going to be devastating to them, and anyway, they probably should know by now.

See, the thing is... I felt that way about 7-year-olds. They're in elementary school, they interact with older kids, they're old enough to wonder how it's possible for a guy in a red suit to fly around and get into the house without triggering the alarm system. I really thought most kids find out around this age, and also thought most parents ease up on talking up the Santa myth, knowing the kids only half-believe anyway. I wouldn't have had any idea that letting the cat out of the bag would be regarded as seriously violating cultural norms... that's why I don't think the teacher was malicious. She just had a different idea of what the Santa-knowledge timeline is.

It isn't the teachers decision or yours to decide when another person's child should find out about Santa.

 

[luvsJack]

Would you feel the same if she had told a class of 12-year-olds?
Probably not, because your cultural belief is that 12-year-olds are not deep into the Santa myth, and it's not going to be devastating to them, and anyway, they probably should know by now.

See, the thing is... I felt that way about 7-year-olds. They're in elementary school, they interact with older kids, they're old enough to wonder how it's possible for a guy in a red suit to fly around and get into the house without triggering the alarm system. I really thought most kids find out around this age, and also thought most parents ease up on talking up the Santa myth, knowing the kids only half-believe anyway. I wouldn't have had any idea that letting the cat out of the bag would be regarded as seriously violating cultural norms... that's why I don't think the teacher was malicious. She just had a different idea of what the Santa-knowledge timeline is.

There is no reason for Santa to be mentioned at all. No reason to debate the belief in him what so ever. So, it doesn't really matter what YOU feel about 7 year olds or 12 year olds. The simple solution is not to discuss it. This teacher should have know that.

There are many cats that a teacher has no business "letting out of the bag".

BTW, 7 is hardly the age when they stop believing. For many kids this is during the age group that they are the most excited about his visit. They tend to no longer have any fear of him and are able to enjoy seeing him, writing him letters (something they are now able to do themselves), talking to him, and the excitement of Christmas eve and putting out cooking and milk.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Santa is nothing more than a tradition in our culture. The only real non-no that the instructor committed was allegedly using the phrase (paraphrased) "kids, your parents lied". That is more his personal opinion wedging in.


Conveying private personal information such as someone is a closet lesbian---could impact them in more than a psychological manner. In our culture, that person could experience actual consequences.

Litigating that in court would likely have merit while litigating that somebe at a religious institution let the cat out of the bag in Sunday school are not even in the same ballpark of comparison.

Teacher did not handle this appropriately, but it isn't the same as revealing extremely private information of any kind as the intent is to harm for what purpose would it serve otherwise? In a religious institution, one could easily find the purpose of what this person did. Doesn't make what he did smart. But it doesn't make it tantamount to disclose someone's privately withheld information when they are not breaking any laws.

It does make for interesting discussion though.

 

[kaytieeldr]

Santa is nothing more than a tradition in our culture. The only real non-no that the instructor committed was allegedly using the phrase (paraphrased) "kids, your parents lied". That is more his personal opinion wedging in.

Absolutely. "Christmas is about Jesus; Santa Claus isn't real." would have been enough. Parents could say that just because the teacher doesn't believe in Santa doesn't mean he's not real, does the child believe, etc. But once the teacher added that the parents lied, all bets are off. That IS (a) out of line; (b) not the teacher's concern; and (c) comparable to the other if-true scenarios presented by an earlier poster.

 

[luvsJack]

Why? Why do you think the teacher needed to even mention Santa? Is there some reason why in a lesson about Jesus's birth that Santa needs to be mentioned? No, of course there isn't.

This person had no reason to say one word about Santa whether to say that Santa was real or not. Even if a child asked, the correct answer would be "we are talking about the birth of Jesus, the reason we celebrate Christmas. Talk to mom and dad about Santa" No harm, no foul.

It does not matter if Santa is a tradition, a belief, or a real little elf somewhere hidden in the snow of the north pole--THERE WAS ABSOLUTELY NO REASON TO SAY ANYTHING ABOUT HIM AND WHETHER OR NOT HE IS REAL!!

 

[kaytieeldr]

There wasn't a 'need' to mention Santa (although, again, we have only the child's side of the incident, and then only third-hand). You can't unring the bell. But this discussion has gone beyond the existence of a mythical being and into personal, if theoretical, territory.

No, it's NOT acceptable to take aggressive steps to reveal secret or potentially harmful information about living, breathing human beings including telling seven year old children that their parents lie. THAT, as far as I'm concerned, is far more damaging.

 

[mskayjay]

I'm not trying to argue that you don't have a right to feel the way you do about this, but I have to disagree about the bolded part of your post. Truly and sincerely, it would never occur to me that finding out about Santa at the age of 7 would be seen as "devastating" or "affect their life." I had no idea that so many people took maintaining their children's belief in Santa so seriously, till I read it here on the Dis! The teacher was certainly tactless but probably not malicious, and almost certainly had no idea the outrage many would feel over this.

If you go back a few pages and read my original response to this posting you'll see that we never lied to our children about a man in a red suit being Santa Claus but rather an embodiment of the "special something" that is the magic of Christmas. We always made it a policy that lying was not okay in this house....not us to the kids nor the kids to us. That is how we chose to live our lives.

Parents who choose (as is there right and responsibility in their raising of their children) to make Santa more or less than how we defined him have the right to expect their wishes to be respected and to not have an educator tell their children that they are liars. The "devastating" and "affect their life" may be related to finding out Santa is not what they thought, but more importantly and more likely will come from now struggling with whether Mom and Dad lied to them and what else Mom and Dad lie to me about. That for me is the point where the teacher needs to be reprimanded or censored by the higher ups at his/her school.

 

[hambirg]

Why? Why do you think the teacher needed to even mention Santa? Is there some reason why in a lesson about Jesus's birth that Santa needs to be mentioned? No, of course there isn't.

This person had no reason to say one word about Santa whether to say that Santa was real or not. Even if a child asked, the correct answer would be "we are talking about the birth of Jesus, the reason we celebrate Christmas. Talk to mom and dad about Santa" No harm, no foul.

It does not matter if Santa is a tradition, a belief, or a real little elf somewhere hidden in the snow of the north pole--THERE WAS ABSOLUTELY NO REASON TO SAY ANYTHING ABOUT HIM AND WHETHER OR NOT HE IS REAL!!

Again, I couldn't agree with you more!

As a teacher, we are expected to stick to the curriculum. I am not at liberty to teach your 6yr old about sex, no matter what they ask me! I did not have the right to tell my 4th grader's anything about sex, and how it was that their teacher became pregnant. It was not part of the 4th grade curriculum. . .that happens in 5th grade and only with the parent's permission. If I had been honest and not "lied" to my 4th graders, I could have most definitely lost my job! And, as I would expect anybody that is working with children, I didn't "lie." I simply told them we are not discussing it and they need to ask their parents.

Knowing what I know about CCD and the Catholic church, I'm absolutely certain that this was not part of the curriculum. Stick to what you are suppose to teach. . .or be dismissed. CCD teachers are volunteers, but it is a requirement for Catholic children to go through it to later be able to receive the sacraments.

He had no business telling the children what he did. Any teacher in a normal school setting would be dismissed for going outside the bounds. It's not negotiable no matter how some people may see it. He should politely be dismissed from his volunteer position, because clearly he doesn't understand some basic things about teaching and what that involves. You are not at liberty to make up the curriculum as you go along and as you personally see fit. Period.

It doesn't have anything to do with how it will effect the child. If it's not your call to make and it's outside of the curriculum, then it is none of your business! When you send your kids to school or CCD classes there are certain expectations based on the curriculum. As a parent, you are not expected to believe that anything outside those bounds are going to be taught to your child. I think some posters here would feel differently if the kindergartner came home and said their teacher told them all the details about the birds and the bees. . well. . because it came up and he/she didn't want to lie to the children. That is such a bs argument. You simply defer the questions and go about teaching the curriculum. . .what the parents' reasonable expectations are of what they have sent their children there to learn and have agreed to. . .not your own personal, unapproved agenda.

 

[Erin1700]

I went to Catholic school and once a priest made mention of their being no such thing as Santa...in his homily at a school mass!!! Oh my were there problems after that!

I forget what happened to him, I will have to ask my mom. But I think they made him apologize and tell the kids what he said was wrong.