Where do you stand on this?

[cabanafrau]

As a mother of a child with autism, I have read this entire thread and quite a few others on other sites I am a member of. I have thought about what I could add to this discussion and whether or not I really wanted to wade into the cluster that this thread has become.

At the end of the day, I do not think I can explain my views better than the member I quoted.

We fly with our son often. He is 9 and has been on close to 30 separate flights all thankfully without incident. Have we been lucky? Maybe but I can tell you that my husband and I do everything we can to ensure that things go well on trips. We make sure that we have food that he likes, we make sure that we have things to keep him entertained and we have backup plans if things go south.

This woman made a number of poor choices and her choices were the cause of her family being escorted off the plane. I hope that she eventually realizes that she is the person who can effect changes in how her child interacts with the world and that she figures out how to work with the world instead of against it.

I get how hard life can be with a child with special needs, I live it every single day. But, I live my life with the goal of preparing my child to live in this world rather than trying to prepare this world to accommodate my child. One day, I will not be here and while I hope that it is a day far in the future, I have to make sure that my child has the tools necessary to live in this world without his mommy making sure that everyone caters to him.

Prepare the child for the road, not the road for the child.

You're setting your son up for success as much as is within your control, which is what loving parents do. I hope he has a very bright future beyond your wildest dreams.

 

[cabanafrau]

I noticed a few (maybe 1 or 2, lost track of who said what) that confuse ADA equal access vs special accommodations. I deal with this everyday at work, granting special accommodations to people and legally can ask for medical documentation. I am in the camp that it had nothing to do with autism or the teen but the mother mentioning something physical. I read the facebook page someone posted above and think it's odd that the paramedics and the police both told the woman they had more important/better things to do and they shouldn't have been called. Most airports have fire/paramedics, police on site so I don't see them saying this especially condraticting a pilot's judgement. She also said the police showed her the statements from the passengers? How long was that plane on the ground to get a lot of written statements from all those passengers? Most police I know, know better than to give judgements to people because they know they will end up in court testifying.

You are correct, it's absolutely odd, bizarre even. It sounds as if the mother herself is the source of the reports of claimed support she received from emergency responders and the police. If you have any familiarity with police reports you understand immediately the assertion about viewing the reports is patently false. I had not seen that detail mentioned prior. If she wanted to file suit she needed to have a legal team muzzle her immediately upon leaving the plane. Have there been any reports she has retained counsel?

As far as the ADA v. special accommodations, yes they are separate things in a sense, however the ADA is also the legal source that requires accommodations under certain circumstances, which it sounds like where your role comes in. For instance a defendant in a court of law must receive accommodations as necessary to allow that person to participate in their legal defense. Those accommodations aren't necessarily all spelled out to the letter in a specific article or section of the act, but the framework is there to insure defendants receive due process under the law.

 

[NHdisneylover]

Yes, her entire description of her interaction with the police seems. .. off.. I guess is the best word to use. She say that when they told her she had to deplane she did not and instead shouted to the plane asking questions about the situation and then told the officers she would not leave until they took reports from all the passengers and writes as if the police totally supported her in this behaviour--which does not feel quite right to me, you know?

I am referring to this section of the facebook post from the mother:

"
The officer asked us again to quietly exit the plane. I was furious. I stood and shouted so the passengers could hear. "Is there anyone on this plane who feels threatened by our Juliette who faces autism? Has Juliette alarmed or harmed anyone on this plane? Passengers stood up for Juliette and shouted, "She is fine," "Leave her alone." "She is not causing a problem lets go to Portland." "This is ridiculous," and mouthed to me "I am so sorry."

The police repeated that we needed to leave the plane. The captain came out and we saw him for the first time. He said, "Let's not make this situation worse. I said, "You made it worse. You never even saw Juliette and I have no idea what your flight attendant told you but nothing happened." I was so shaken and tears begin to fall. As mom I could not stand the way Juliette was being treated. I said I am not leaving the plane until I have statements and names showing there was NO issue. The officer said he would take statements. He came off the plane with 10 pages of passenger statements and showed them to me. He said, "You know we have some really violent cases where the plane should land. This is not one of those. You have a lot of people supporting your claim that nothing happened and your daughter should stay on the plane." He gave me the police report number and told me I can get copies of the report and the statements."

 

[cabanafrau]

OP here. While you did liven up the thread yesterday, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and pass along some tips since we've all been new here at some point and it takes a while to figure out how things work.

There's a handy little feature to use while you're reading a thread. It's the "Quote" button in the bottom right of a post. If something triggers a response in you, you simply hit that button. Nothing happens right away until you're ready to reply yourself. When you go to the Reply box, you hit the buttons that say "Insert Quotes", then "Quote These Messages". Once they appear in your Reply box, you can re-read them and decide if you still want to respond to them. If you don't, there's another handy feature that let's you simply delete them. If you do, then there they are. That way you can very easily respond to specific comments and get it right every time as to who said what, and their exact words. (I did it above just for you.) If you want, you can either shorten the quoted message or bold the specific words you're replying to, for clarity.

Once you join the thread you can then respond to individual posts as you feel like it. Makes life a lot easier than responding generally, especially when you have such assertions (which is fine if that's what you want to do, but don't be surprised when there's kickback).

I think the poster may not have been quoting because they were participating in the conversation overall for the most part. When you couple the lack of the quotes with passionate and strident opinions it caused some confusion.

While I applaud feeling passionate about ideas, especially when it regards looking out for the best interest of people, I do think if the intent is for greater good delivery of the message is important. I personally don't believe you cannot speak or should not speak negatively of the disabled. That blanket idea makes the disabled automatically less than in my opinion. I do think it's abhorrent to speak negatively about the disabled in regard to their disability. For example if I said I couldn't stand Suzanne and thought she was a jerk because the fact she's wheelchair bound makes her inconvenient to be around -- completely disgusting opinion. If I said I cannot stand Suzanne and think she's a jerk because she gossips about everyone and revels in causing trouble with gossip -- a valid opinion that doesn't excuse or diminish Suzanne because of her disability. Automatically assigning the disabled blanket immunity from negativity dehumanizes and implies I'm regarding them from high on my perch on third base where I was born. In my experience the disabled want to be accepted for who they are, not their disability.

No one in this thread spoke negatively of the girl. Many have issue with her mother's attitude and actions.

 

[sunshinehighway]

Yes, her entire description of her interaction with the police seems. .. off.. I guess is the best word to use. She say that when they told her she had to deplane she did not and instead shouted to the plane asking questions about the situation and then told the officers she would not leave until they took reports from all the passengers and writes as if the police totally supported her in this behaviour--which does not feel quite right to me, you know?

Yeah it seems off. If they ask her to leave and she starts shouting and demanding things, the cops aren't going to be pleased with her.
It would also be completely unprofessional for anyone responding to tell her it's a waste of time that they were called or tell her everyone supports her.
It's also interesting that the video of them leaving the plane shows them all quietly leaving the plane. I wonder if the video was shot by that other passenger who supports Dr. Beegle so thoroughly.

 

[JanaDee]

Yes, her entire description of her interaction with the police seems. .. off.. I guess is the best word to use. She say that when they told her she had to deplane she did not and instead shouted to the plane asking questions about the situation and then told the officers she would not leave until they took reports from all the passengers and writes as if the police totally supported her in this behaviour--which does not feel quite right to me, you know?

I am referring to this section of the facebook post from the mother:

"
The officer asked us again to quietly exit the plane. I was furious. I stood and shouted so the passengers could hear. "Is there anyone on this plane who feels threatened by our Juliette who faces autism? Has Juliette alarmed or harmed anyone on this plane? Passengers stood up for Juliette and shouted, "She is fine," "Leave her alone." "She is not causing a problem lets go to Portland." "This is ridiculous," and mouthed to me "I am so sorry."

The police repeated that we needed to leave the plane. The captain came out and we saw him for the first time. He said, "Let's not make this situation worse. I said, "You made it worse. You never even saw Juliette and I have no idea what your flight attendant told you but nothing happened." I was so shaken and tears begin to fall. As mom I could not stand the way Juliette was being treated. I said I am not leaving the plane until I have statements and names showing there was NO issue. The officer said he would take statements. He came off the plane with 10 pages of passenger statements and showed them to me. He said, "You know we have some really violent cases where the plane should land. This is not one of those. You have a lot of people supporting your claim that nothing happened and your daughter should stay on the plane." He gave me the police report number and told me I can get copies of the report and the statements."

Quite the performance she gave, if one word of that is true. I hope her fellow passengers applauded her when the show was done.

 

[cabanafrau]

Yes, her entire description of her interaction with the police seems. .. off.. I guess is the best word to use. She say that when they told her she had to deplane she did not and instead shouted to the plane asking questions about the situation and then told the officers she would not leave until they took reports from all the passengers and writes as if the police totally supported her in this behaviour--which does not feel quite right to me, you know?

I am referring to this section of the facebook post from the mother:

"
The officer asked us again to quietly exit the plane. I was furious. I stood and shouted so the passengers could hear. "Is there anyone on this plane who feels threatened by our Juliette who faces autism? Has Juliette alarmed or harmed anyone on this plane? Passengers stood up for Juliette and shouted, "She is fine," "Leave her alone." "She is not causing a problem lets go to Portland." "This is ridiculous," and mouthed to me "I am so sorry."

The police repeated that we needed to leave the plane. The captain came out and we saw him for the first time. He said, "Let's not make this situation worse. I said, "You made it worse. You never even saw Juliette and I have no idea what your flight attendant told you but nothing happened." I was so shaken and tears begin to fall. As mom I could not stand the way Juliette was being treated. I said I am not leaving the plane until I have statements and names showing there was NO issue. The officer said he would take statements. He came off the plane with 10 pages of passenger statements and showed them to me. He said, "You know we have some really violent cases where the plane should land. This is not one of those. You have a lot of people supporting your claim that nothing happened and your daughter should stay on the plane." He gave me the police report number and told me I can get copies of the report and the statements."

I see, she simply saw his notes in his hand, not the statements.

Of course many people felt nothing had happened. The girl didn't end up scratching anyone aside from her father apparently. How many people who want to get where they're going are going to look at a kid who they understand has a disability and didn't act out in a violent way and say, yeah, she should be out of here? How many of those people heard what actually went on, not the spin the mother was no doubt giving her fellow passengers, which then was passed on no doubt in a game of telephone? Aside from very loud outbursts, how much can you really hear on a plane from any distance, particularly if you cannot see anything happening? Hearsay holds up in police statements. Problem being only direct eye and ear witnesses can give testimony in a court of law.

 

[Turn the Page]

Because it is not their policy to do so for a multitude of reasons. That is their right as a company and your right as a customer to go somewhere else if you don't like it.

I have flown first class a lot pre kids and coincidentally United is my airline of choice. I have always been given an option for meals and usually IME one is cold one is hot. You can make prior arrangements if you have dietary needs so even there they accommodate their passengers. Selling leftover first class meals is absurd. How do you know they are not saved for the next flight if they are stored properly that is not unreasonable or maybe that is what the FA eat so the extras are for them. They owe no explination for what they do. I'd hope they don't waste lots of food daily, but selling the 4 or 5 max extra meals to passengers in coach is opening Pandora box. There could be tons of passengers who want them...I guess they could auction them off to the highest bidder. It might make the flight more exciting.

I know this was said pages ago but can I just say that is not a half bad idea? Perhaps with the money made on auctioning off amenities they can eliminate the baggage fees or lower fares?

But in all seriousness it would be nice if it worked out that way. Ah to live in a fantasy world.

 

[cabanafrau]

Yeah it seems off. If they ask her to leave and she starts shouting and demanding things, the cops aren't going to be pleased with her.
It would also be completely unprofessional for anyone responding to tell her it's a waste of time that they were called or tell her everyone supports her.
It's also interesting that the video of them leaving the plane shows them all quietly leaving the plane. I wonder if the video was shot by that other passenger who supports Dr. Beegle so thoroughly.

A plane gets diverted, the authorities come aboard and direct you to leave as you have been identified as the reason for the diversion and you refuse to leave and make demands? I'm not sure what brand of logic I could employ to arrive at that being a believable outcome.

 

[SueM in MN]

I noticed a few (maybe 1 or 2, lost track of who said what) that confuse ADA equal access vs special accommodations. I deal with this everyday at work, granting special accommodations to people and legally can ask for medical documentation. I am in the camp that it had nothing to do with autism or the teen but the mother mentioning something physical. I read the facebook page someone posted above and think it's odd that the paramedics and the police both told the woman they had more important/better things to do and they shouldn't have been called. Most airports have fire/paramedics, police on site so I don't see them saying this especially condraticting a pilot's judgement. She also said the police showed her the statements from the passengers? How long was that plane on the ground to get a lot of written statements from all those passengers? Most police I know, know better than to give judgements to people because they know they will end up in court testifying.

Those are all the mother's statements in news articles. I haven't seen her Facebook page, so can't comment on that.
She did say those things in some of the news interviews - not just quotes from her, actual video with her saying it.
Whether they actually did say them or not is not known (and, I can't imagine them saying anything like that to her).
She also said in one article that she insisted on the police getting statements from other passengers so she could prove she was mistreated.
If you look at a number of her interviews, her story is not totally consistent in what she says. In some, she mentions the sandwich, in others she makes it sound like the first food they got was the rice.

The news stories have said her daughter was kicked off of the plane because of her autism and that its sad that people are judging her daughter as dangerous because of her autism. But, in those same articles, she is quoted as saying her daughter "gets aggressive.....scratches.....hits" and then she has "autistic meltdowns".
If you are saying things like that, WHY would you NOT think people would see your child as dangerous?
Using those words, especially on an airplane, sets off a series of events that can lead to an emergency landing. The staff had no idea what that child's "autistic meltdown" would look like or how well the parents could control her. The mother also said in the interviews that her child was a "picky eater" and needed "piping hot" food to avoid a meltdown; even with giving her a First Class meal, there was no guarantee that it would be piping hot enough or acceptable to the child. If the food they gave her didn't do the trick, the flight attendants had no other options.

It also bothers me that the mother talks about the child, not as a child. I don't know how to explain it better, but it seems de personalized, not about her child. It's about her and how it made her feel, not about her child. In the video when they are leaving the plane, it's her, her husband, followed by the child, but none of them even look back to see if the child is following or to help make sure all her belongings were gathered up.

She's in some of the interviews saying those things in front of her child. She says her child is high functioning autistic, but she doesn't seem to be worried about her child hearing those words about herself. It makes me think of the song, 'Children Will Listen' from 'Into the Woods'
Careful the things you say,
Children will listen.
Careful the things you do,
Children will see and learn.
Children may not obey
But, children will listen.
Children will look to you
For which way to turn,
To learn what to be.
Careful before you say,
"Listen to me".
Children will listen.

You're setting your son up for success as much as is within your control, which is what loving parents do. I hope he has a very bright future beyond your wildest dreams.

applause!
At one point, I worked in a mental health setting with children and adolescents. Many of the older kids were totally out of the parents' control and had meltdowns because the parents didn't do anything about it when the children were young.
It may not be the easiest thing to control a strong 3 year old, but if the parents just say, "he's autistic. He has meltdowns," they are going to end up with an uncontrollable 15 year old. I can tell you that the kids that had any words did not like the feeling of melting down, but their parents handled them like a storm that you can possibly anticipate, but can't do anything about. The kids were very happy to be given some tools so that they had some control. So, I applaud any parents who try to be proactive and provide their children with tools to grow.

 

[cabanafrau]

At one point, I worked in a mental health setting with children and adolescents. Many of the older kids were totally out of the parents' control and had meltdowns because the parents didn't do anything about it when the children were young.
It may not be the easiest thing to control a strong 3 year old, but if the parents just say, "he's autistic. He has meltdowns," they are going to end up with an uncontrollable 15 year old. I can tell you that the kids that had any words did not like the feeling of melting down, but their parents handled them like a storm that you can possibly anticipate, but can't do anything about. The kids were very happy to be given some tools so that they had some control. So, I applaud any parents who try to be proactive and provide their children with tools to grow.

Absolutely true -- for raising all kids.

I was on another thread this week talking about sending kids off to prom & all the concerns that go with that. I said it's a whole lot easier to have confidence in what your kid thinks, how they handle things and what choices they will make if you've let them suffer the kiddie consequences of screwing up while they've been growing up.

 

[kaytieeldr]

The last time I flew to Europe (on Delta) there was more than one choice on the menu. I do not recall if all options were hot. Source: memory.

Some people do not like airline food, cannot eat airline food, or have already eaten. Source: flying while seated near other people.

Not everyone with a tickets gets on the plane. Source: flying standby.

Frequent fliers in coach can automatically be upgraded to first class at the airline's discretion. Source: personal air travel, aka flying
Passengers in certain fare buckets can purchase low-cost upgrades to first class. Source: experience

 

[kaytieeldr]

According to United's chart-full meal only during certain hours and flight has to be longer than 2 hours 20 min, otherwise its a snack

http://www.united.com/web/en-US/content/travel/inflight/first/dining.aspx

So they just barely even made the cut-off. The actual flight time for HOU-PDX is in the 2:23-2:25 range. Any closer and there wouldn't have been meals onboard.

 

[kamik86]

My opinion on this is that flight attendants and pilots need to have full authority to land and remove any passenger they feel could be a threat from a plane. It doesn't matter if that person is disabled or not.

The mothers statement that the girl could have a meltdown and start scratching people if she didn't get her way would have been enough for me to make the same decision. In a situation like that where there is no way to separate people if there is an incident you don't wait for something to actually happen before you remove the problem.

As for if the same thing would have happened with a much younger child... honestly if the parent seemed so unwilling to control their child as the mother did in this case then I would think yes the same thing would have happened. The expectation is generally although a 3 yeard old is much more likely to have a meltdown is that they can be controlled forcibly if necessary and won't be able to hurt anyone. An irrational 15 year old in full meltdown mode however could seriously injure a good number of people very quickly on a plane.

 

[DopeyDame]

I would absolutely love for United to come out with a statement along these lines:
"As we said, a plane was diverted because of a disruptive passenger. Some news reports are stating that the passenger was a 15 year old girl. In fact, reports from our flight attendants and pilot indicate that the disruptive and unruly passenger was actually a 45 year old woman."

 

[Turn the Page]

You know, this story makes me think of several things.

I agree with most people on this thread on many points.

The first thought I have is "wow, you do not, in any way, shape, or form, bully or threaten a flight attendant. They do NOT put up with that." I don't really think the pilot had a choice once the mother threatened the flight attendant.

In that same vein I have heard reports that some parents involved in the GAC/DAS lawsuit against Disney are suggesting they put their kids in lines in Disney World and let them melt down violently and attack neighboring guests and then inform the injured parties that the reason they got hurt was because Disney took away their child's GAC and if they didn't like it they could choose not to ride that ride. This situation reminds me of that. The impression that I got was the Beegle was using her child's autism as a threat. She was basically telling the FA "give me what I want or I'll sick my autistic adult-sized daughter on you" which is a threat. Allowing, or even encouraging, a special needs child to meltdown simply to prove a point is, in my opinion, absolutely horrible.

Now, of course there is a line between preventing meltdowns and spoiling a kid rotten but that is not the point of this discussion. If a parent, any parent, even those of children without special needs, can prevent a meltdown in public situations such as Disney World or on an airplane by something as simple as feeding their child then they should do that and they should take necessary precautions to avoid known meltdown triggers and not rely on other people to accommodate them because they didn't do their due diligence.

For example, DD9 is completely normal. No special needs whatsoever. She has flown multiple times from the time she was 3 months old. Her drink of choice is milk. Just plain, white milk. From the time she was old enough to drink regular milk we knew she would want some on the plane. We didn't know if the plane would have milk available so we brought some with us. It turns out that isn't something planes normally stock so we continue to buy a little bottle of milk in the airport when we get past security. No big deal. I don't pitch a fit because the plane doesn't have what she wants. She would never sit through a 2 hour lecture on the role of France in the Revolutionary War so I'm not going to take her and demand the lecturer reduce his 2 hour speech to a 10 minute highlight reel.

In another situation DSD5 has some sensory integration issues. She doesn't like loud noises. I'm not going to take her to a rock concert and demand they turn the music down because it is bothering her. There are things that can be changed about certain venues and activities to accommodate certain special needs. Some of those are reasonable. Some are unreasonable. Some are just flat out impossible. All parents need to think about what is a good fit for my child and whether it is reasonable or not.

It seems that Beegle tried to feed her daughter a hot meal in Houston and she refused to eat it. I think it is there that the whole thing broke down. If Plan A doesn't pan out you go to Plan B and Plan B is NOT going ahead with your plans knowing full well there is going to be a problem without making sure you can accommodate your childs needs in the process.

 

[Luvchefmic]

Another Amen for another responsible parent in you.

FWIW you're not the only person seeing a similarity to the WDW lawsuit participants and Dr. Beegle. I'm convinced she's in on that too.

 

[JanaDee]

You know, this story makes me think of several things.

I agree with most people on this thread on many points.

The first thought I have is "wow, you do not, in any way, shape, or form, bully or threaten a flight attendant. They do NOT put up with that." I don't really think the pilot had a choice once the mother threatened the flight attendant.

In that same vein I have heard reports that some parents involved in the GAC/DAS lawsuit against Disney are suggesting they put their kids in lines in Disney World and let them melt down violently and attack neighboring guests and then inform the injured parties that the reason they got hurt was because Disney took away their child's GAC and if they didn't like it they could choose not to ride that ride. This situation reminds me of that. The impression that I got was the Beegle was using her child's autism as a threat. She was basically telling the FA "give me what I want or I'll sick my autistic adult-sized daughter on you" which is a threat. Allowing, or even encouraging, a special needs child to meltdown simply to prove a point is, in my opinion, absolutely horrible.

Now, of course there is a line between preventing meltdowns and spoiling a kid rotten but that is not the point of this discussion. If a parent, any parent, even those of children without special needs, can prevent a meltdown in public situations such as Disney World or on an airplane by something as simple as feeding their child then they should do that and they should take necessary precautions to avoid known meltdown triggers and not rely on other people to accommodate them because they didn't do their due diligence.

For example, DD9 is completely normal. No special needs whatsoever. She has flown multiple times from the time she was 3 months old. Her drink of choice is milk. Just plain, white milk. From the time she was old enough to drink regular milk we knew she would want some on the plane. We didn't know if the plane would have milk available so we brought some with us. It turns out that isn't something planes normally stock so we continue to buy a little bottle of milk in the airport when we get past security. No big deal. I don't pitch a fit because the plane doesn't have what she wants. She would never sit through a 2 hour lecture on the role of France in the Revolutionary War so I'm not going to take her and demand the lecturer reduce his 2 hour speech to a 10 minute highlight reel.

In another situation DSD5 has some sensory integration issues. She doesn't like loud noises. I'm not going to take her to a rock concert and demand they turn the music down because it is bothering her. There are things that can be changed about certain venues and activities to accommodate certain special needs. Some of those are reasonable. Some are unreasonable. Some are just flat out impossible. All parents need to think about what is a good fit for my child and whether it is reasonable or not.

It seems that Beegle tried to feed her daughter a hot meal in Houston and she refused to eat it. I think it is there that the whole thing broke down. If Plan A doesn't pan out you go to Plan B and Plan B is NOT going ahead with your plans knowing full well there is going to be a problem without making sure you can accommodate your childs needs in the process.

BBM Isn't that AutismHippie?

 

[Turn the Page]

BBM Isn't that AutismHippie?

I don't know. I have just seen comments about parents claiming that. All I have seen is really hearsay since I'm not a member of any of the groups working to get the GAC back.

 

[DisneyFan13US]

Personally I feel as though the mother should have prepared better.

However, like others have posted, that was not the crux of the problem. As soon as she said her daughter would scratch and have a meltdown if she didn't receive hot food, I don't see how the pilot had a choice but to land the plane. I also wonder how much of a factor austism really was. If I tell a FA that I have to have a hot meal or I will scratch people and have a meltdown, that is taken as a threat and appropriate measures are taken.

Also, the FA and pilot have no idea what that meltdown may look like. If she doesn't get hot food and has a meltdown, I don't see that happening quietly and peacefully. Will she only scratch or will she kick, scream, bite? If she does have a meltdown, other passengers are at risk and how do you control her at 30000 feet in a very small space ensuring no one is injured including her? I don't think you can.

Someone on the moms Facebook page asked for the FA's name and I found it odd that she said she didn't get it. It seems like if you are going to be upset to the point of potentially filing a lawsuit, you would have gotten the FA's name. I understand she could have said that because she doesn't want to make the name public but if that was the case it seems like she would just say she didn't feel comfortable giving that information out, not that she doesn't have it.