When OK is not OK

[sam_gordon]

Is it too much to ask to be more angry at the hateful people that decided to adopt this symbol for their cause than the people saying 'Hey, some people are using this as a hate symbol now, might not want to pose with it'?

I'll tell you what... if I have someone in front of me (whether IRL or internet) that shows racist tendencies, I'll call them out on it. I agree "Gru" did it intentionally. I think Universal did some investigation and found out the employee shouldn't have been working there and cut ties, very possibly (probably) because he is a racist. I have no problem with any that.

What I don't agree with is those saying "you can't use the OK sign any more because WP folks have 'claimed' it". Like I said, "what's next"? Another gesture? What if they start using a hand wave as their "symbol"? Should we no longer wave at each other? Sounds ridiculous, doesn't it? Totally agree. But IMO, saying we can't use the OK sign is ridiculous also.

 

[b2k1121]

I'll tell you what... if I have someone in front of me (whether IRL or internet) that shows racist tendencies, I'll call them out on it. I agree "Gru" did it intentionally. I think Universal did some investigation and found out the employee shouldn't have been working there and cut ties, very possibly (probably) because he is a racist. I have no problem with any that.

What I don't agree with is those saying "you can't use the OK sign any more because WP folks have 'claimed' it". Like I said, "what's next"? Another gesture? What if they start using a hand wave as their "symbol"? Should we no longer wave at each other? Sounds ridiculous, doesn't it? Totally agree. But IMO, saying we can't use the OK sign is ridiculous also.

You do whatever you want, I never said no one can use it. I never said anyone that uses it is a racist and I don't think anyone is going to get thrown in jail for making the sign to a friend at work while they are on the phone. I don't think the slippery slope argument applies here.

But, if you choose to pose for a photograph intentionally making that gesture, you may get questioned about it. I don't think I've ever used it in my life, even before it become a WP symbol, cause I'm lazy and a thumbs up is slightly easier and communicates the same message.

 

[dominiondad]

People here were asking when is it acceptable (if ever) for them to use it. If your intent is to answer "okay, I'm Okay, you're okay, we're okay, they're okay, or yes" to someone, you are good to go. If your intent is be profane, hateful, defamatory, derogatory, inflammatory, then it is not.

Guessing at other people's intent? Gets tricky. Sometimes it's obvious, and sometimes not. As Number 5 once famously said "Need more input!"
View attachment 441453

Completely agree. If you are doing anything that is meant to show disrepect because of a person's ethnicity, gender, religion, race, sexual preference, physical characterstics, etc.. you need to spend some time considering how to be a better person. But unless it's clear how a person meant something, we should be careful to not just assume the worst.

 

[luvsJack]

Then what was the point of that Obama photo other than to draw some sort of false equivalence to this incident?

I don't think anyone in this thread has even called this person a racist or assumed race. I'm pretty sure the only assumption is that they made the gesture on purpose which is a pretty safe bet, and we assume Universal did their due diligence (looked at past photos they were in, talked to them, etc) in determining the consequences. Disboards posters didn't fire this person, Universal did. An angry mob of random people from the internet didn't bring this to Universal's attention, the family in the photo did. The family was offended by it, isn't that enough? Is it too much to ask to be more angry at the hateful people that decided to adopt this symbol for their cause than the people saying 'Hey, some people are using this as a hate symbol now, might not want to pose with it'?

I can't imagine spending so much time and energy to defend this sort of thing, is the A-Ok sign that important in your life? Keep using it all you want, maybe just don't pose for a photo with it.

I am not angry at the TM because I do not KNOW the TM. Nor am I angry that he was fired. I don't put quite that amount of emotion into a random person in a costume in a picture. Discussing the symbol in question is not "an angry mob". NO ONE here has expressed anger over Universal's handling of this situation. And I, personally, am not angry at anyone. But I ask, once again, when do we stop giving the hate filled people the power to dictate what we can and cannot do?

No, its not enough that the family was offended. If the next time we go, dgd gets a picture with Scooby and Shaggy and Shaggy puts up the peace sign (you know, because its him being in character?) and I decide to get on some news station and claim that I am offended, should that be enough to win a lawsuit or to get Shaggy fired? Or how about I go to meet Stan the bus driver and decide I am offended by the shrunken head and the idea of magic of the bus. Is that enough to get Universal to change the setting of meeting this character? People get offended at the drop of a hat these days. Sometimes they aren't really offended until someone (usually on social media) tells them they SHOULD be offended. I find it funny that it took them 5 months to decide they even WERE offended. So, while I don't completely disagree with the guy being fired (because, as I already said, I was not privy to any conversations between the TM and Universal; I don't totally agree with it JUST based on the family being offended.

 

[PaulaSB12]

How can we say he or she was being racist we ASSUME the person was white but how do we know the ethnicity of the person in question?

 

[sam_gordon]

You do whatever you want, I never said no one can use it. I never said anyone that uses it is a racist and I don't think anyone is going to get thrown in jail for making the sign to a friend at work while they are on the phone. I don't think the slippery slope argument applies here.

While you might not have said it, others in this thread definitely have. Since some people have no problems painting with a very wide brush, I figured that was ok.

But, if you choose to pose for a photograph intentionally making that gesture, you may get questioned about it. I don't think I've ever used it in my life, even before it become a WP symbol, cause I'm lazy and a thumbs up is slightly easier and communicates the same message.

Absolutely no problem with trying to find the intent behind the symbol. I've said from the beginning that context matters. Responses on this thread have said it doesn't. I think it's sad that people believe that.

 

[siren0119]

It just struck me how ironic it is that some folks aren't willing to accept that certain hand gestures have different meaning to different groups of people, and it's a GOOD thing to be sensitive to it....on a DISNEY forum full of Disney fans....given that it's fairly well accepted that the "Disney point" (pointing with two fingers) is taught to CM BECAUSE pointing with one finger is offensive in some world cultures.

 

[luvsJack]

It just struck me how ironic it is that some folks aren't willing to accept that certain hand gestures have different meaning to different groups of people, and it's a GOOD thing to be sensitive to it....on a DISNEY forum full of Disney fans....given that it's fairly well accepted that the "Disney point" (pointing with two fingers) is taught to CM BECAUSE pointing with one finger is offensive in some world cultures.

Different hand gestures meaning different things in different cultures around the world is a whole 'nother thing than a hand gesture being taken over by a hate group. Or a hoax by a hate group.

 

[wvjules]

It started as a hoax, now it is a hate symbol. It doesn't matter how or why they took over an innocuous symbol. But they did. What is the harm in being aware that others may find a previously benign hand gesture is now seen as hateful and hurtful to some others?

 

[Kennywood]

I just KNEW he was racist!!

 

[wvjules]

For goodness sakes people, why are you posting pictures of the hand gesture before it was "taken over" by white supremacists to support your argument? Back then it didn't have the meaning that it does now. Sadly, things have changed and it's not so innocent anymore.

 

[Gracedis1]

The Anti Defamation League has a list of white supremacist symbols on its website and the ok symbol is on the list. However, it says "Caution must be used in evaluating instances of this symbol's use." It's all about the intent, which I'm sure Universal had some knowledge of. Sad this family had to experience this.

 

[robinb]

What I don't agree with is those saying "you can't use the OK sign any more because WP folks have 'claimed' it". Like I said, "what's next"? Another gesture? What if they start using a hand wave as their "symbol"? Should we no longer wave at each other? Sounds ridiculous, doesn't it? Totally agree. But IMO, saying we can't use the OK sign is ridiculous also.

As long as it doesn't look like a "sieg heil" salute, you should be fine.

Knock yourself out on flashing the OK sign in photos, but don't be surprised if people believe you to be what you are not.

 

[b2k1121]

I am not angry at the TM because I do not KNOW the TM. Nor am I angry that he was fired. I don't put quite that amount of emotion into a random person in a costume in a picture. Discussing the symbol in question is not "an angry mob". NO ONE here has expressed anger over Universal's handling of this situation. And I, personally, am not angry at anyone. But I ask, once again, when do we stop giving the hate filled people the power to dictate what we can and cannot do?

No, its not enough that the family was offended. If the next time we go, dgd gets a picture with Scooby and Shaggy and Shaggy puts up the peace sign (you know, because its him being in character?) and I decide to get on some news station and claim that I am offended, should that be enough to win a lawsuit or to get Shaggy fired? Or how about I go to meet Stan the bus driver and decide I am offended by the shrunken head and the idea of magic of the bus. Is that enough to get Universal to change the setting of meeting this character? People get offended at the drop of a hat these days. Sometimes they aren't really offended until someone (usually on social media) tells them they SHOULD be offended. I find it funny that it took them 5 months to decide they even WERE offended. So, while I don't completely disagree with the guy being fired (because, as I already said, I was not privy to any conversations between the TM and Universal; I don't totally agree with it JUST based on the family being offended.

If the peace sign was a known hate symbol against whatever ethnicity you are, then, yeah, he should. That's a very silly argument and I think you missed my point entirely. 'The angry mob' was referring to what you would have said if random people on social media saw the photo and brought it to Universal's attention instead of the family. You even admitted you don't like when that happens. That didn't happen here, it was the family that brought it up and I'm asking isn't that enough for you to just let it go?

You keep saying stop giving them the power, but haven't explained how to do that. What would you do differently in this incident to not give them the power?

 

[Disneypro1]

Its sad that people with agendas hijack a perfectly acceptable symbol or like the Betsy Ross flag...which has always been a symbol of American individualism...and freedom.
Yet. Kaepernick thought it was some how racist/ Thankfully, folks dont agree with that except for a very irrelevant minority. Same with the "ok" symbol. Finally folks are starting to stand up to idiotic political correctness and that hasn't been done much before. Folks are saying enough is enough.
The most intolerant people in the world are the ones crying tolerance. Agree with them or you are a racist..etc. Free speech only exists if you agree with their agenda. Folks that cry racism are the first to see race first and not character or content.

 

[sam_gordon]

It started as a hoax, now it is a hate symbol. It doesn't matter how or why they took over an innocuous symbol. But they did. What is the harm in being aware that others may find a previously benign hand gesture is now seen as hateful and hurtful to some others?

So, if they "took it over", why can't we "take it back"? Why do we let them take ANYTHING over?

 

[Disneypro1]

Except he isn't in the family's vacation photo.

Yep...dont let facts get in the way though....some folks dont want facts...they want an agenda.

 

[b2k1121]

Its sad that people with agendas hijack a perfectly acceptable symbol or like the Betsy Ross flag...which has always been a symbol of American individualism...and freedom.
Yet. Kaepernick thought it was some how racist/ Thankfully, folks dont agree with that except for a very irrelevant minority. Same with the "ok" symbol. Finally folks are starting to stand up to idiotic political correctness and that hasn't been done much before. Folks are saying enough is enough.
The most intolerant people in the world are the ones crying tolerance. Agree with them or you are a racist..etc. Free speech only exists if you agree with their agenda. Folks that cry racism are the first to see race first and not character or content.

A flag that was created during an era of slavery represents...freedom? hmm. I'm not saying it's a racist flag, but saying it represents freedom is certainly interesting.

The rest of that is just a Fox News word salad thrown together and not worth a reply.

 

[luvsJack]

If the peace sign was a known hate symbol against whatever ethnicity you are, then, yeah, he should. That's a very silly argument and I think you missed my point entirely. 'The angry mob' was referring to what you would have said if random people on social media saw the photo and brought it to Universal's attention instead of the family. You even admitted you don't like when that happens. That didn't happen here, it was the family that brought it up and I'm asking isn't that enough for you to just let it go?

You keep saying stop giving them the power, but haven't explained how to do that. What would you do differently in this incident to not give them the power?

I am sure if we dig deep enough that we would find someone somewhere that thinks its a hate symbol.

I don't remember saying anything about an angry mob so not sure on that part. But the family in question took it to the media when they should have left it with Universal if they had a complaint.

How do we do that? By ignoring them. Completely ignore them. They don't exist. They have no power over you, me or anyone else. As long as they are getting the attention they want, they have the power. I would have ignored it. The hand gesture didn't change the enjoyment their child got from the day, so ignore it. Now IF this person is a member of some hate group, guess what? He got what he wanted. He didn't want just the family to see it, he wanted everyone to see it; and now they have. So he (still saying IF he is a member), accomplished what he set out to do.

 

[luvsJack]

A flag that was created during an era of slavery represents...freedom? hmm. I'm not saying it's a racist flag, but saying it represents freedom is certainly interesting.

The rest of that is just a Fox News world salad thrown together and not worth a reply.

So, tell me, how long have you had an opinion of the Betsy Ross flag? Always? Or just sent Kaepernick decided it was something to be offended by? If you have to be TOLD to be offended, you really shouldn't be offended.